Crisp and Ellsbury

[MANNYHOF24]

I think it is time to trade Coco. He is hitting right now and he may bring in some value. I dont think it really does anybody any good switching back and forth at this point. I also think it is especially bad for Ellsbury not to be playing everyday somewhere at this point. I say we just trade Coco and give it to Jacoby now?

 

What do you guys think?

[redsoxrules]

Yes but we cant just give coco away, we need something good in return , people under estimate coco's value . wich teams need a starting CF?

 

it sucks because their both good and theres no room for both of them , I really like crisp but he's the one that would have to go

[inkman]

I wish Coco had played either of his first two Red Sox season's as well as he is playing now. The only unfortunate thing about trading Coco now is that he is actually helping them win games.

 

I know it will never happen but both could be in the lineup at the same time if Papi plays first. DH Manny and put Jacoby in left, at least until Lowell gets back. Defense take a hit but the lineup would look quite balanced with speed and power.

[BoSox21]

the problem with trying to trade Coco is that there isn't a huge demand for starting centerfielders right now. my thinking is that the Sox are waiting for a CF to get injured somewhere forcing a team to overpay for Coco

 

we'll see though. right now, the platoon isn't working out too badly

[ORS]

I see us matching up well with the Pads, again. Edmonds is as always an injury candidate, and they'll want someone who can cover ground at Petco. Rotoworld has Scott Hairston as the backup right now. I don't think he's their ideal CF.

 

Barrett seems redundant there.

[HeadOfSoxNation]

What's everyone looking for in return for Crisp? High mid-level prospects? Middle relief help?

[BudLight]

With the problems Papi is having at the plate right now and the way Crisp has been hitting, the idea of having Ellsbury in left and Crisp in center, with Manny at DH could be a big gain for the team. It would enable the Sox the rest Manny a bit early on in the season and get Ellsbury the playing time he needs. They could get Papi some at bats by having him platoon with Casey at 1B while Lowell recovers.

[TheKilo]

Wait, so we want to trade Coco when he sucks and want to trade him when he's doing well?

 

I vote for standing pat right now. It's obviously not effecting Coco to be in a "platoon" situation and if Ellsbury is the player we all think he'll be then he won't either.

 

Trading him just to trade him is beyond stupid. I love our bench right now (Cora, Cash, Casey, Crisp) and would put it up against any other bench in the game.

[Jayhawk Bill]

With the problems Papi is having at the plate right now and the way Crisp has been hitting' date=' the idea of having Ellsbury in left and Crisp in center, with Manny at DH could be a big gain for the team. It would enable the Sox the rest Manny a bit early on in the season and get Ellsbury the playing time he needs. They could get Papi some at bats by having him platoon with Casey at 1B while Lowell recovers.[/quote']

 

I suspect that Big Papi's knee couldn't endure play at first base right now.

 

I see us matching up well with the Pads, again. Edmonds is as always an injury candidate, and they'll want someone who can cover ground at Petco. Rotoworld has Scott Hairston as the backup right now. I don't think he's their ideal CF.

 

Concur--but the only thing that the Pads have that they might be willing to trade and that Boston might want at the MLB level would be Greene, and that would be Crisp plus Lugo for Greene, increasing the Padres' salary structure significantly.

 

Accepting prospects would hurt Boston's chances in 2008, and I don't like the Padres' system much, but I'd consider a package of Mitch Canham, Matt Latos and Will Inman: one of those three, probably Latos, will eventually reach MLB and do OK, but it would be a couple of years before Boston would reap any return on investment. Matt Antonelli of St. John's Prep would be nice, but he'd be blocked by Pedroia, who's similar and probably better; Chase Headly has old-player skills, and Boston can buy those skills more effectively...Headly would be blocked by Lowell, Manny and Big Papi.

 

the problem with trying to trade Coco is that there isn't a huge demand for starting centerfielders right now. my thinking is that the Sox are waiting for a CF to get injured somewhere forcing a team to overpay for Coco

 

Chicago could be Coco's potential home. The White Sox will learn that Swisher isn't a true CF, so they might offer something. More to the point, the Cubs don't trust Felix Pie to start for some reason, and the Cubs need to win NOW: Felix Pie might be available for Coco Crisp plus, say, two mid-range pitching prospects.

 

The locations that intrigue me are Oakland and Minnesota. Oakland could definitely use a good CF, and they're surprise AL West contenders thus far. Oakland's system is rich with trade talent after last winter, so they might be able to offer the best package. Minnesota is discovering that Carlos Gomez isn't ready for The Show and that their team is ahead of both Detroit and Cleveland halfway through April, so they might dip into their solid pool of MiLB talent for Crisp if they remain competitive for a while.

 

Wait, so we want to trade Coco when he sucks and want to trade him when he's doing well?

 

I vote for standing pat right now. It's obviously not effecting Coco to be in a "platoon" situation and if Ellsbury is the player we all think he'll be then he won't either.

 

Trading him just to trade him is beyond stupid. I love our bench right now (Cora, Cash, Casey, Crisp) and would put it up against any other bench in the game.

 

We shouldn't give Crisp away, but if Boston is offered a good package he's not irreplaceable, either. He's a good MLB starting CF--if Boston is offered that fair value, they should accept it. Furthermore, there were rumblings preseason about Crisp wanting (demanding?) a trade--this era of good feelings may be short-lived, and future rumors will again lower his value.

 

I'd be open to offers were I Theo. Of course, YMMV.

[rician blast]

YMMV.

 

you make me vomit?

[Jayhawk Bill]

you make me vomit?

 

I might, possibly; you are clearly a poster of discriminating taste, and my opinions are often strongly phrased.

 

***

 

YMMV: Your Mileage May Vary.

[Ray10]

I have to agree we really do not need a guy like Crisp we have Ellsbury he has a great glove and a very solid bat. We could most likely get some decent pitching in return for Crisp im sure there are plenty of teams looking for a CF and Crisp is a decent player.

[das11209]

Theo tried to trade Coco before - there was no market for him.

 

Hopefully it will change.

[TheKilo]

Theo tried to trade Coco before - there was no market for him.

 

Hopefully it will change.

 

When?

[TheKilo]

We shouldn't give Crisp away, but if Boston is offered a good package he's not irreplaceable, either. He's a good MLB starting CF--if Boston is offered that fair value, they should accept it. Furthermore, there were rumblings preseason about Crisp wanting (demanding?) a trade--this era of good feelings may be short-lived, and future rumors will again lower his value.

 

I'd be open to offers were I Theo. Of course, YMMV.

 

I completely agree, but we should not trade him just to trade him. That would be beyond stupid.

[das11209]

When?

 

If he continues to play well - I am sure there will be some need with other teams eventually.

 

I like him on the roaster - but he wants to play everyday - that is tough.

[SCM33]

If he continues to play well - I am sure there will be some need with other teams eventually.

 

I like him on the roaster - but he wants to play everyday - that is tough.

 

Its a double edged sword....if he plays well, he takes AB's away from Ellsbury, and if he doesnt......well we have a pain in the ass.

 

BTW....he is not showcasing, people already know what he can do.......all he can do is play himself into a spot with another team, not out of one, since nobody wanted the guy anyway.

[BSN07]

Holding on to Crisp right now is the right move. Wait until someone really needs a CF and Theo will probably be the 1st they call. I only say move Coco sooner then later if Theo is absolutely blown away by an offer(MRP+Hi Level prospect, something of this nature).

[SCM33]

Holding on to Crisp right now is the right move. Wait until someone really needs a CF and Theo will probably be the 1st they call. I only say move Coco sooner then later if Theo is absolutely blown away by an offer(MRP+Hi Level prospect' date=' something of this nature).[/quote']

 

I dont think they will get that.

 

I think Crisp + one of our own minor league talent may bring in a good relief pitcher, but Crisp alone wont get it done.

 

The only Value Crisp alone may bring right now with his salary, is a prospect, or a player another team has given up on with similar salaries.

[ksushi]

I think I am one of a very very small minority of people who think Coco shouldn't be traded at all... for now. He provides us great depth in case of an inury. He helps keep our corner outfielders fresh. No matter which player is starting having two quality CFers provides an obvious weapon off the bench that makes us pretty damn formidable late in close games. Think about the advantage we will have late with a lead being able to tighten our outfield defense to the extent we can with those two.

 

Crisps BABIP is pretty significant right now and is isolated power is pretty much at his 2006-2007 levels. If the other shoe drops for Crisp I think there is the potential for Ellsbury to be getting the nod much more often in that platoon, if not winning the job out-right. Either way, I don't think its a given we trade Crisp. He has not performed over the last two years and if he is relegated to defensive replacement/pinch runner, it would be deserved. A demotion would curtail any trade talks because it would tank his value, but given the advantage of having potentially the best fourth outfielder in baseball no matter who ends up on the bench, I don't really see that as a problem. He doesn't need to go anywhere. So what, hes unhappy, he will accept his role and help us win games because if he wants to have any chance of getting traded he can't flat line. Not to mention its in his best financial interests to stay positive and try to play his way back into a job.

[SCM33]

A demotion would curtail any trade talks because it would tank his value

He doesnt have any to begin with....his value was tanked a month into the season last year when it was realized the year before wasnt becuase of an injury, he has not performed to expectations.

 

If he had any value to other teams at all, and I mean at all.....why wouldnt a bubble team pick him up? Basically what that tells me is that there are 32 teams in the league, and 3 OF's for each team.....so everyone in MLB thought there were 93 (excluding the sox) starting OFs who give them a better chance......anyone could have had him, and nobody would offer anything. Hell Detroit would rather see a former catcher/3Bman run around in CF before tlaking to Boston (just a joke, obv. Boston wouldnt deal him to another frontrunner).

 

So what' date=' hes unhappy, he will accept his role and help us win games [/quote']

Unhappy players turn in to cancers. He will not accept his role, he already hinted that he woudlnt in spring training.

 

In a dream scenario, everything you said would come true......but either this ends messy, or someone gets hurt to give Coco significant time (JD Drew, its 18 games in to the season and your not hurt yet?).

[rician blast]

JD Drew' date=' its 18 games in to the season and your not hurt yet?.[/quote']

 

that hyperbaric oxygen chamber does the trick, eh?

[ksushi]

Its against his best interests to tank it because hes unhappy in a back up role and either way I think we have a strong enough club house to withstand an unhappy coco crisp.

[rician blast]

I might, possibly; you are clearly a poster of discriminating taste, and my opinions are often strongly phrased.

 

***

 

YMMV: Your Mileage May Vary.

 

 

Hey Bill. That was just my way of asking what the heck YMMV means, without saying "what does YMMV mean?"

 

Wasn't in any way saying you do make me vomit...in fact, we may have had a rough stretch a while back, but I think my eyes have been opened to different ways of looking at things, statistically and otherwise...and for that I kinda thank you.

[Jayhawk Bill]

Hey Bill. That was just my way of asking what the heck YMMV means, without saying "what does YMMV mean?"

 

Wasn't in any way saying you do make me vomit...in fact, we may have had a rough stretch a while back, but I think my eyes have been opened to different ways of looking at things, statistically and otherwise...and for that I kinda thank you.

 

Too kind; no insult taken, of course, and thank you and back at you for the kind words. :thumbsup:

 

I think Crisp + one of our own minor league talent may bring in a good relief pitcher, but Crisp alone wont get it done.

 

Why would you say that?

 

Baseball Prospectus's MORP suggests that, even after two "disappointing" seasons, Coco is still worth much more than his contract. MORP is a good tool--barring some specific reason otherwise, it suggests that Coco could get Boston quite a good relief pitcher.

 

Do you know specific, modest trade requests offered by Boston that were turned down in the past ten days, after Coco had begun to demonstrate his 2008 value? I haven't seen any such stories--what I've seen is Ken Rosenthal's, "One general manager interested in Coco Crisp is convinced that the Red Sox do not want to move the center fielder, saying, 'Anytime somebody asks, they ask for the moon.'"

 

I think that Theo knows Coco Crisp's true value to either Boston or any other MLB team, and that Theo won't let Coco go for less than that very high value.

[BSN07]

I think I am one of a very very small minority of people who think Coco shouldn't be traded at all... for now. He provides us great depth in case of an inury. He helps keep our corner outfielders fresh. No matter which player is starting having two quality CFers provides an obvious weapon off the bench that makes us pretty damn formidable late in close games. Think about the advantage we will have late with a lead being able to tighten our outfield defense to the extent we can with those two.

 

Crisps BABIP is pretty significant right now and is isolated power is pretty much at his 2006-2007 levels. If the other shoe drops for Crisp I think there is the potential for Ellsbury to be getting the nod much more often in that platoon, if not winning the job out-right. Either way, I don't think its a given we trade Crisp. He has not performed over the last two years and if he is relegated to defensive replacement/pinch runner, it would be deserved. A demotion would curtail any trade talks because it would tank his value, but given the advantage of having potentially the best fourth outfielder in baseball no matter who ends up on the bench, I don't really see that as a problem. He doesn't need to go anywhere. So what, hes unhappy, he will accept his role and help us win games because if he wants to have any chance of getting traded he can't flat line. Not to mention its in his best financial interests to stay positive and try to play his way back into a job.

 

I don't have a problem with them holding onto him or trading him sooner rather then later. Whatever helps the team the most.

 

The one trend i'm noticing with Coco tho is, everytime his name pops up in ther rumor mill( most recent was a couple days ago with the Cubs showing interest), he all the sudden has a small nagging injury and is out of the line up. The things cool on him and hes back in there playing. This all could be coincidence, but its becoming annyoing. This guy has more physical issues the Drew, and thats saying something( I have no issues with Drew, just using him as a reference).

 

If Coco has half a brain he should realize that Jacoby is the present and future CF for the Sox. And should shut up and do what the club tells him, and collect all his guranteed money.

 

He needs to get over himself, yes he played great CF D, but he was brought in for offensive purposes as well. The Sox didn't hand Coco's starting job to Jacoby, like they did with Pedroia. They have given him a fair shot at trying to reclaim it. But with his bat MIA, and all his nagging injurys( I think its the hamstring now) preventing him from being that elite CF, hes lost his spot fair and square.

 

 

Suck it up Coco puff, your on borrowed time. You might as well play hard when given the oppurtunity, keep your mouth( and your agents) shut and maybe you'll get some other team to give you a starting spot in CF.

 

As far as I concerned, he should be the 4th OF and thats it...

[a700hitter]

I like having them both. Play the hot hand, because both seem to be inconsistent.

[TheKilo]

Unhappy players turn in to cancers. He will not accept his role, he already hinted that he woudlnt in spring training.

 

In a dream scenario, everything you said would come true......but either this ends messy, or someone gets hurt to give Coco significant time (JD Drew, its 18 games in to the season and your not hurt yet?).

 

If there was any doubt as to whether or not you were an idiot, this post should be exhibit A. Crisp is making millions of dollars to be a fourth outfielder right now. Have you heard any rumblings that he isn't happy? Aside from the last three nights, he's been in a platoon situation.

 

As for JD Drew, its people like you who will never give him a fair shake in this town. You realize the guy played in 140 games last year and 146 the year before?

[ksushi]

I like having them both. Play the hot hand' date=' because both seem to be inconsistent.[/quote']

 

I don't think you can really judge consistency when the players in question aren't in the lineup on an everyday basis. From what I can see, Ellsbury has started to bring that sweet BP swing of his with him to every game and every at bat, losing it much less often than last year. Thats the key for him. I like what I've seen out of crisp too. Hard not to right now, although it is April.

[ORS]

Through 19 games with roughly equal playing time.

 

[table]Player|BA|OBP|SLG|SB(%)|BtRuns|RZR(OOZ)

Crisp|.325|.349|.375|2(100)|-0.4|.864(8)

Ellsbury|.231|.415|.385|4(100|1.6|1.00(5)[/table]

 

BtRuns is from BB-Ref. It's linear weights (in runs) relative to league average. For those unfamiliar with LnWts, it is a system that applies a run coeffecient to every offensive outcome/event.

 

Just for a laugh, Lugo's BtRuns this year is alreay -3.4. I hate that bag of douche.