Yankee offense: worst start in 10 yrs

[26 to 6]

Limiting discussion to the twenty pitchers BP PECOTA considers most comparable to Phil Hughes at his age entering 2008, Bob Moose, Gary Nolan, Jim Palmer, Storm Davis, Bill Gullickson, Carlos Zambrano, Britt Burns, Dennis Eckersley and Don Drysdale made it to age 25 without any big setbacks, IMO. The other eleven did have struggles, IMO...that's about a 50-50 mix.

 

Hughes is struggling in 2008. It's early, but it's tough completely turning around an 0-3 record with an 8.82 ERA in one's first four starts. I'd be a little less critical than Gom here, but I'm I lot less confident than you're being, 26 to 6. Hughes isn't panning out the way many successful first-round highly touted picks do...at least not yet. :dunno:

You can't look at what he's done this year and ignore how well he did last year, especially in his 2 starts before his injury. And he was pretty good when he came back. I understand what you're saying, but it's too early to say one way or the other regarding Phil. But again, it's not fair to get down on him for his struggles thus far and completely disregard how well he pitched last year when he came up. We need more time before we can get on him like that.

[a700hitter]

Maybe they will be good, but as they go through their growing pains your season will go down the toilet. You don't have enough consistent veteran's to take up the slack.

[26 to 6]

Can't disagree one bit. But hopefully people start to get their s*** together. Hopefully Hughes can start being effective, Moose can maybe do something useful (I dont care if he helps Robby Cucuzza wash jerseys, as long as he does SOMETHING useful), and everyone can be consistent. Like you said, we really can't afford this.

[TheKilo]

the franchise looked good today. Probably shouldnt have been brought out for the 6th. Too many deep counts early on.

 

Wait, aren't you the same guy who killed Torre for burning his pen?

 

Fact is, when your starters give you 6 innings in two games, someone needed to bite the bullet last night. Although I don't think bringing out a guy who's cruising and under 100 pitches out for the 6th as "biting the bullet".

[a700hitter]

Kennedy, the other rookie prodigy starting pitcher for the Yankees took his turn at s***ing the bed tonight. He wasn't able to get out of the 3rd inning and his ERA is 9.64. He and Hughes are a formidable 1-2 punch.

[jacksonianmarch]

Kennedy needs to be demoted IMO. Much different case than Hughes. Hughes needs to learn the league IMO. He needs to learn which guys he can go right after and which guys his stuff forces him to be careful with. He needs to learn that a 1 pitch groundout is more effective than a 8 pitch strikeout. Stuff like that. The Baltimore game just proved the point further. Too many deep counts against a Baltimore lineup that isnt very good.

 

For Kennedy, he is not a power type pitcher. He wont consistently throw the ball 92+ like Hughes can (and did in Baltimore). He doesnt have the Hughes curveball either. he's a finesse, location guy and this is what made him so effective in his 5 level jump last yr. 13BB in 14IP shows that something is wrong. Is it mechanical? Is he hurt? Has he lost his confidence? Whatever it is, I'd ship him to AAA and see how he fares. Right now, Igawa is throwing better.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Kennedy needs to be demoted IMO. Much different case than Hughes. Hughes needs to learn the league IMO. He needs to learn which guys he can go right after and which guys his stuff forces him to be careful with. He needs to learn that a 1 pitch groundout is more effective than a 8 pitch strikeout. Stuff like that. The Baltimore game just proved the point further. Too many deep counts against a Baltimore lineup that isnt very good.

 

Honestly I think Phil Hughes should be in AAA or AA working on developing a better changeup. The fastball and curve are just fine but he doesn't have that 95-98mph fastball so he needs another pitch. It's hard to be a 2-pitch starter in the majors. Big league hitters figure you out...not the other way around.

[jacksonianmarch]

He's been throwing the slider more than the changeup and I agree, he needs to use the changeup more. I like his changeup. Whether it isnt getting called or he doesnt have confidence in it or whatever, it needs to be thrown.

[Jayhawk Bill]

Kennedy needs to be demoted IMO. Much different case than Hughes. Hughes needs to learn the league IMO. He needs to learn which guys he can go right after and which guys his stuff forces him to be careful with. He needs to learn that a 1 pitch groundout is more effective than a 8 pitch strikeout. Stuff like that. The Baltimore game just proved the point further. Too many deep counts against a Baltimore lineup that isnt very good.

 

For Kennedy, he is not a power type pitcher. He wont consistently throw the ball 92+ like Hughes can (and did in Baltimore). He doesnt have the Hughes curveball either. he's a finesse, location guy and this is what made him so effective in his 5 level jump last yr. 13BB in 14IP shows that something is wrong. Is it mechanical? Is he hurt? Has he lost his confidence? Whatever it is, I'd ship him to AAA and see how he fares. Right now, Igawa is throwing better.

 

I think that word got back to MLB that folks* were watching their umpires award Kennedy strike calls on pitches that should've been balls that were called balls for the opposing team's pitchers. Pitch f/x allows such analysis. Kennedy was getting a couple of runs shaved off his ERA last year through favorable pitch calling, and this year he's not getting those calls. Accordingly, it's now evident that he sucks.

 

 

 

* "Folks" may possibly include the author of this post.

[jacksonianmarch]

he had 3 starts last yr. You cannot tell me that you have pitch fx from the minors. And it isnt the fact that he isnt getting the close call. Its the fact that he isnt even close.

[TheKilo]

Kennedy needs to be demoted IMO. Much different case than Hughes. Hughes needs to learn the league IMO. He needs to learn which guys he can go right after and which guys his stuff forces him to be careful with. He needs to learn that a 1 pitch groundout is more effective than a 8 pitch strikeout. Stuff like that. The Baltimore game just proved the point further. Too many deep counts against a Baltimore lineup that isnt very good.

 

For Kennedy, he is not a power type pitcher. He wont consistently throw the ball 92+ like Hughes can (and did in Baltimore). He doesnt have the Hughes curveball either. he's a finesse, location guy and this is what made him so effective in his 5 level jump last yr. 13BB in 14IP shows that something is wrong. Is it mechanical? Is he hurt? Has he lost his confidence? Whatever it is, I'd ship him to AAA and see how he fares. Right now, Igawa is throwing better.

 

LOL @ WANTING IGAWA OVER KENNEDY

[26 to 6]

Tell me about it, sounds outrageous. As ludicrous as it sounds, at this point it may be the best thing. Kennedy needs to be in AAA, and I've said that all offseason, he's just not ready. He needs to get his work in down there. Although he was good last season when he made the jump, he needs more than 32.2 AAA innings to get acclimated to better hitters than those he was facing from college to AA throughout his career. Given how good Igawa has been so far in Scranton this year, allowing only 4 walks and 1 homer in 21.2 innings with a 2.49 ERA, and given the fact that he has it in him to be a big-time pitcher, being that he was a premier pitcher with Hanshin, even winning an MVP; he deserves a chance to give it another shot. I know he was horrific last year, but that was, IMO like I said all season, just a chance to get his feet wet and get acclimated to the big-league style of baseball. Perhaps second time round will be better. Thats not to say he's going to be the savior and pitch lights out, because who knows, but maybe he can perform sufficiently. I don't see it happening now, but maybe after another 2 or 3 unsuccessful starts from Kennedy, Ca$h and Joe will consider making a move. Possibly even sooner if Igawa continues to impress in his next start or 2.

[TheKilo]

Dude, Yankee fans are pining for Kei Igawa. End of story.

[26 to 6]

Yo why are you being so ignorant? What do you expect us to do, just say "gee, let's let IPK just keep at it." When a player isn't adequately performing, you need to look to an alternative. Igawa's the best thing we have right now, what are we supposed to do? We pinned our hopes on Aaron Small and Shawn Chacon in 2005 and look what happened. You have to work with what you have, and all things willing it might work out. If it doesn't we move on to the next option. I'm glad it amuses you though.

[Mr Crunchy]

i remember last year igawa made his debut either against boston or in the big show against someone else

our man jackson was dictating how igawa had a 4 pitch selection of weapons and he was going to pitch 200 innings and what balance he had etc.....

by the 3rd inning we get

""THIS GUY SUCKS

another wondeful moment in redsox chat room history

the fact is neither of these guys is going to be dependable this year although igawa may give you more s***** innings

[schillingouttheks]

It's just funny that so many Yankee fans thought their rotation was going to be fine. Ours isn't exactly the best either, but everyone at least had some concerns. For whatever reason, you guys were comforted by all of the "ifs" surrounding your rotation, assuming that they would all come through. Now that the s*** has hit the fan, we can't help but sit back and enjoy watching you all pine for Igawa to replace Kennedy with smirks on our faces, wanting to tell you that we told you so.

[Jayhawk Bill]

he had 3 starts last yr. You cannot tell me that you have pitch fx from the minors.

 

I didn't say that I have Pitch f/x from the minors. I don't need it--I'm referring to the 275 pitches he threw in MLB. "Three games" sounds small, but 275 pitches is a reasonable sample, particularly if the performance is suspect: and when an ERA goes down from both AA and AAA in MLB, especially from a pitcher who's not necessarily forecast to excel in MLB by scouts, many might consider the performance suspect.

 

Look at the actual results from last season. Take his first game, the one that caught my attention. There were four strikes, all in the bottom inch of the zone, called balls: pitches 1, 30, 32, and 54. There were 13 balls called strikes: pitches 10, 16, 21, 27, 45, 65, 67, 71, 77, 85, 92, 95, and 96. Even if one expands the strike zone from the regulation zone by four inches to account for umpires giving pitchers "the black," there were still nine outside pitches that were called strikes, pitches that missed by as much as about half a foot. Kerwin Danley didn't extend that same courtesy to the Rays' pitchers...it was a clear case of favoring Kennedy.

 

Here's the XML File:

 

http://gd2.mlb.com/components/game/mlb/year_2007/month_09/day_01/gid_2007_09_01_tbamlb_nyamlb_1/pbp/pitchers/453178.xml

[26 to 6]

i remember last year igawa made his debut either against boston or in the big show against someone else

our man jackson was dictating how igawa had a 4 pitch selection of weapons and he was going to pitch 200 innings and what balance he had etc.....

by the 3rd inning we get

""THIS GUY SUCKS

another wondeful moment in redsox chat room history

the fact is neither of these guys is going to be dependable this year although igawa may give you more s***** innings

Baltimore on April 7th. I was at that game, where A-Rod eventually hit the walkoff grand slam in the bottom of the 9th. He looked HORRIBLE

[26 to 6]

It's just funny that so many Yankee fans thought their rotation was going to be fine. Ours isn't exactly the best either' date=' but everyone at least had some concerns. For whatever reason, you guys were comforted by all of the "ifs" surrounding your rotation, assuming that they would all come through. Now that the s*** has hit the fan, we can't help but sit back and enjoy watching you all pine for Igawa to replace Kennedy with smirks on our faces, wanting to tell you that we told you so.[/quote']

I'll admit, I was comfortable going into the season with Hughes. Kennedy is where my concerns were, and to a much lesser degree, Mussina. But you're right, nobody saw this.

[TheKilo]

I'll admit' date=' I was comfortable going into the season with Hughes. Kennedy is where my concerns were, and to a much lesser degree, Mussina. But you're right, nobody saw this.[/quote']

 

Really? No one saw the potential for young pitchers to struggle their first significant time through the league?

 

And for all the s*** Sox fans have given Lester and Buchholz, they've still done far better than Hughes and Kennedy.

[TheKilo]

Cocaine is a hell of a drug, but you can't defend your posts without getting riled up and start dishing out "insults".

 

If you say something like David Ortiz used steroids, back it up with more than "he started hitting bombs in Boston." This completely disregards thinks like organizational approaches to hitting, consistent playing time, new coaches and hitting backdrops, etc.

 

Can you explain to me why ARod should be immune from the steroid discussion if Ortiz is a part of it?

 

I'm bored but how awesome am I?

[BSN07]

I'm bored but how awesome am I?

 

Hahahaha:lol:

 

 

On the thread topic,

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see NYY get off to a slow start offense wise again this season. No Arod, Tex is a consistent slow starter.

[diony]

We'll see. They do have the pitching for a good start.