Bullpen Concerns

[ksushi]

Thats the pitch that has been lacking since he came up. He showed dominance in the minors after being drafted, and displayed a filthy slider. Became the first red sox to ever make it to the majors the season he was drafted and then unraveled and never showed that slider like he did in AA.

 

That can't be the end of it. I'm pumped to see the slider back, and I bet he will be big for us in the 2nd half. I still like Hansen more than MDC, and I will stick to that until Hansen is either flipping burgers or our primary set up guy. Imagine what a bullpen tandem we would have if he lives up to his previous potential? From the 8th inning on you will see nothing but 98 mph heat. *giggles*

[Mr Crunchy]

hansen was the victim of paps success and a season of injuries that required a savior to pitch in big spots...he was too young to drinl legally and what??15 months outta high school when he debuted....thruout redsox histoy its a given that the cant miss prospects end up on the business end of a disaster or tragedy of some sorts.

i go back to roger moret and don aase and can name a dozen guys who just exploded before making their mark in the big show

juan pena was tragic

the kid who burnt his hand on the canlde

the kid who fell on the glass severing his hand tendons

frankie ""she showed ne an id""rodriguez

brian""minor league pitcher of the year""rose

tomo ""14-0 i love rhode island"" okha

jeff""the strutter""sellers

sunny kim

bunny kim

sang song

robinson ""cy"" checo

and if i gave it any thought i could go back to the dark days like the career of calvin schiraldi ending in queens and the tommy bolton dana kieker lefty duos,1 of which got the ball against bob 26-4 ebony eyes cy winner welch in game 2 of the alcs with less than 10 starts under his belt....prospects have terrified me for years for good reasons

i dont trust them to be what theyre supposed to be

paps and bucks have made me sleep better but in my world i like 32 year old grizzled vets

[ksushi]

Hansen was 21 when he was drafted out of St. Johns university.

[SCM33]

Loved what I saw from Hansen the other night....that slider looked unhittable.

 

When can we have Timlin go the way of Old Yeller?

 

You criticize me for making comments about Timlin and Lopez, then you make your own negetive comments about one of the same players I had an argument about....

 

 

f'n assclown.

[CrespoBlows]

You criticize me for making comments about Timlin and Lopez, then you make your own negetive comments about one of the same players I had an argument about....

 

 

f'n assclown.

 

I don't remember him ever defending Mike Timlin. Example?

[SCM33]

I don't remember him ever defending Mike Timlin. Example?

 

 

He did here:

Funny' date=' they won a championship with these guys last season.[/quote']

 

 

Those 2 guys referring to Timlin and Lopez.

 

I'm not making and argument, just lately, Kilo has felt a need to criticize and chastise every single post I make, while contradicting himself in this thread, I think a user block of him will be needed in the near future......because my opinion means nothing to him, and every post I make seems to piss him off although I've done nothing to him. Instead of having good baseball conversations (which forums are designed for) he feels a need to just try and make me look like an idiot for whatever reason......I've never had a problem with him, just lately something I do seems to irk him.

[Mr Crunchy]

i thought hansen was 18?

oh well,this is why i work for I work for a living rather than go to school

i wasnt that bright to begin with.

the fact of the matter is this season the pitching has been great,even with schill out,timlin sucking hind tit and becks missing a couple starts.

its the bats that have disappeared led by the big mans gimpy knee and lowell being out with his own demons.

yesterday the sox were -115 against tampa

last year in the same match up with the same pitchers the sox wouldve been 2-1

something aint right in the fens

[SCM33]

the fact of the matter is this season the pitching has been great

 

 

 

I wouldnt call it great, the starting pitching has been very good as of late, the bullpen is still very shaky....the offense has been a let down in the current losing streak.

 

They are 12 outta 14 in team ERA.

They are 8 outta 14 in hits allowed.

They have given up the thrid most walks.

[Mr Crunchy]

stats lie and in this case arent really fair.

the pitching has kept them in nearly every game theyve played.

plus theyve already did ny twice,toronto texas detroit and cleveland and anaheim

those teams hit everyone well and add the loss of 2 beckett starts to the equation i think we've done very well playing the iron of the league.

 

the only teams that suck on paper are the a's and the rays and as april is closing i think we've been pretty successful considering all the ******** traveling we've had to do over the past month.

[Jayhawk Bill]

I think that the issue is that, for most intents and purposes, Boston just can't seem to win without scoring five or more runs.

 

Record scoring 0-4 runs: 2-10

Record scoring 5-12 runs: 13-2

 

Driving the point home:

 

Record scoring 3-4 runs: 1-4

 

Boston has four good starting pitchers and an adequate fifth starter (Lester, who is leading in games started due to minor injuries and flu-like symptoms for others). Only Matsuzaka has an ERA below 4.00, though. The rest of the starters are allowing their share of runs...and Dice-K needs relief help by the 6th or 7th inning in every start.

 

Baltimore is 4-9 scoring four or fewer runs. New York is 5-8. Tampa Bay is only 2-7, but that's still better than 2-10. Toronto is only 2-13, but they're in the cellar, too...that's not the winning formula.

 

I'm suspecting that Boston's performance in low-scoring games is more than bad luck...the pitching (and Terry Francona) need too many runs to hold a win.

[SCM33]

I'm suspecting that Boston's performance in low-scoring games is more than bad luck...the pitching (and Terry Francona) need too many runs to hold a win.

 

I dont think this is Franconas fault, hes turning to guys to hold the game, or hold a lead....and they just arent able to, which further puts the bullpen in the spotlight.

 

Francona can be blamed for putting certain guys in to a game, but he really doesnt have many options, especially if Delcarmen cannot be counted on to give them solid innings as a setup guy....theres only so many times you can turn to OKI and Paps. Someone has to step up in that pen.......hopefully Hansen can answer that bell if DelCarmen doesnt want to step up.

 

Ive been a Hansen hater since day 1, only out of disappointment, hopefully he proves me wrong aand stabilizes that pen.

[redsoxrules]

speaking of the bulpen , the other night insted of letting buchholz pitched the 8th , terry should of put OKI in the game . am I the only one who would of done that . I know Buchholz was pitching great but his pitch count was getting up there and he is a rookie why not go to your 1-2 bulpen punch that was soooo great last year?

[SCM33]

Thats unfair to Terry, Buchholz looked great, there was no reason to get him outta there. He made a mistake, and the Sox lost.....Clay deserved o be out there for it.

[jacksonianmarch]

I think that the issue is that, for most intents and purposes, Boston just can't seem to win without scoring five or more runs.

 

Record scoring 0-4 runs: 2-10

Record scoring 5-12 runs: 13-2

 

Driving the point home:

 

Record scoring 3-4 runs: 1-4

 

Boston has four good starting pitchers and an adequate fifth starter (Lester, who is leading in games started due to minor injuries and flu-like symptoms for others). Only Matsuzaka has an ERA below 4.00, though. The rest of the starters are allowing their share of runs...and Dice-K needs relief help by the 6th or 7th inning in every start.

 

Baltimore is 4-9 scoring four or fewer runs. New York is 5-8. Tampa Bay is only 2-7, but that's still better than 2-10. Toronto is only 2-13, but they're in the cellar, too...that's not the winning formula.

 

I'm suspecting that Boston's performance in low-scoring games is more than bad luck...the pitching (and Terry Francona) need too many runs to hold a win.

 

 

The Yankees had a problem like that last yr. We were 6-36 when we scored 3 runs or less. This yr, we have already won 4 games when scoring 3 runs or less. I think alot of that has to do with luck and with pen management.

[CrespoBlows]

 

I'm not making and argument, just lately, Kilo has felt a need to criticize and chastise every single post I make, while contradicting himself in this thread, I think a user block of him will be needed in the near future......because my opinion means nothing to him, and every post I make seems to piss him off although I've done nothing to him. Instead of having good baseball conversations (which forums are designed for) he feels a need to just try and make me look like an idiot for whatever reason......I've never had a problem with him, just lately something I do seems to irk him.

 

I see why he comes after you.

 

You totally missed his point. You claimed:

 

I dont think that flashes of effectiveness serves the Redsox best. Flashes of excellence is good on a average to good team, but not a team with a roster full of guys who have a chance at the champioship.

 

He said, correctly, that the Red Sox had already won a championship with players that have flashes of effectiveness.

 

Again, I ask you to show me where he defends Mike Timlin.

[Jayhawk Bill]

The Yankees had a problem like that last yr. We were 6-36 when we scored 3 runs or less. This yr' date=' we have already won 4 games when scoring 3 runs or less. I think alot of that has to do with luck and with pen management.[/quote']

 

Yeah, but you were 12-49 when scoring four runs or fewer...that's a .197 W/L Pct, whereas Boston's is .167 in games with four or fewer runs scored thus far.

 

I'd suggest that bullpen management is the critical factor, with bench management an auxiliary factor. Boston's bench has been crap for a couple of reasons thus far:

 

1) Influenza

2) David Ortiz: he's blocking the DH spot when playing and, right now, clogging the bench with a player who cannot take the field.

 

The bullpen has been a challenge because, in large part, Tito has used struggling pitchers, especially Timlin, in crucial roles. Here are the Boston relief pitchers listed in declining order of leverage index (criticality) of their appearances:

 

1. Jonathan Papelbon 1.75

2. Craig Hansen 1.66*

3. Hideki Okajima 1.63

4. Mike Timlin 1.36

5. Kyle Snyder 1.28*

6. Javier Lopez 1.19

7. Manny Delcarmen 0.95

8. David Aardsma 0.93

9. Bryan Corey 0.89

10. Julian Tavarez 0.28

 

* Small sample size (1-2 games)

 

Timlin has sucked from his first appearance: he shouldn't be right behind Okajima as the "go-to" guy when his ERA is in the four-digit range.

[jacksonianmarch]

well who do you give the innings to?

 

Last yr, Okajima got every 8th inning hold opportunity and his arm was mush by August. Papelbon was being used in meaningless games in late 06 when his arm went pop.

 

A 3rd reliever who can soak up innings in the 7th or when the SU or Cl guys need a day off is a must. MDC right now has reverted to his hittable ways and the rest of the pen could not show their 07 form to this point.

[Jayhawk Bill]

well who do you give the innings to?

 

You know, I'm not a board-certified Major League Baseball Manager, but I'm thinking that the 42-year-old guy with the 13.50 ERA isn't necessarily the best choice. :dunno:

 

A 3rd reliever who can soak up innings in the 7th or when the SU or Cl guys need a day off is a must. MDC right now has reverted to his hittable ways and the rest of the pen could not show their 07 form to this point.

 

I'm criticizing the use of two relief pitchers:

 

1) Mike Timlin

2) Bryan Corey

 

I would rather have our AAA guy, Gronk, than either of these two pitchers. With Timlin, in particular, I see Francona making his classic early-season mistake of overtrusting a veteran who has lost the ability to compete.

 

Regarding the rest of our bullpen, I expect them to do perfectly well in their assigned roles, including spot use in high-leverage situations for Aardsma, Hansen and Delcarmen, as well as crucial LOOGY moments with Lopez.

 

 

***

 

Go worry about your own bullpen. How are Hawkins and Ohlendorf doing?

[Mr Crunchy]

id like to see you 2 men duel in a locked room with no windows,running water or doors.

just a red room covered in crushed velvet with nothing but baseball magazines,a coffee machine and some drakes cakes for nutrition

then we assemble a panel of 5,2 yanks 2 sox and a neutral to drill you both.

mj

you see what kind of a pedestal sean patrick has put you on?

jb

this guy was on an old site the boston herald had put up the day after nomar was traded to the cubs...

nobody expected him to show after the 04 comeback but the boy hung in there and by the time novemeber came he was back in form with randy johnson carl pavano,jarret wrght and steve karsay to hang his hat on..

i am soft with men who have bigger balls than brains

[Taliesin]

I'm guessing JB would pay up if he owed money. MJ, I know people in Southie. We can find you.

[jacksonianmarch]

You know I am good for it. Hell I am leading the league

[jacksonianmarch]

id like to see you 2 men duel in a locked room with no windows,running water or doors.

just a red room covered in crushed velvet with nothing but baseball magazines,a coffee machine and some drakes cakes for nutrition

then we assemble a panel of 5,2 yanks 2 sox and a neutral to drill you both.

mj

you see what kind of a pedestal sean patrick has put you on?

jb

this guy was on an old site the boston herald had put up the day after nomar was traded to the cubs...

nobody expected him to show after the 04 comeback but the boy hung in there and by the time novemeber came he was back in form with randy johnson carl pavano,jarret wrght and steve karsay to hang his hat on..

i am soft with men who have bigger balls than brains

 

haha, thanks crunch

[Mr Crunchy]

no sweat sonny

i tend to call spades spades

[YAZMAN]

mj

you see what kind of a pedestal sean patrick has put you on?

 

One that pivots 360 degrees?

[rician blast]

One that pivots 360 degrees?

 

in both directions

[Gom]

You know I am good for it. Hell I am leading the league

For now. Enjoy it while you can. I'm about to eat you alive like the league does your two prima donna boys who can't pitch, Hughes and Kennedy.

[redsoxrules]

[ORS]

MDC keeps spitting the bit every time it's offered. They need to get Hansen back up as soon the 10 days pass and see what they've got there. MDC is looking more and more like a middle of the game reliever, and not an end game option.

 

I will say this in his defense last night. It made absolutely no sense to pitch MDC to Lind. I know JHB posted his power pitcher splits in the game thread, but he's got a pretty strong LH/RH split too, and Oki is just a better pitcher. I think the stronger power pitcher split is negated by the quality of pitchers involved. Oki hadn't thrown since 4/24, so he was well rested. When your usual 8th inning guy hasn't had work in 5 days, give him the ball to start the inning in a 1-run game. I'm pretty sure the intent was to buy an inning's worth of outs from MDC and not pitch Papelbon on consecutive days, but it almost blew up in his face, and luckily, Oki was able to shake off the rust and get the job done after coming in without his full warm-up.

[Mr Crunchy]

i like delcarmen but i have a lot more confidence in okijima

[SCM33]

MDC keeps spitting the bit every time it's offered. They need to get Hansen back up as soon the 10 days pass and see what they've got there. MDC is looking more and more like a middle of the game reliever, and not an end game option.

 

I will say this in his defense last night. It made absolutely no sense to pitch MDC to Lind. I know JHB posted his power pitcher splits in the game thread, but he's got a pretty strong LH/RH split too, and Oki is just a better pitcher. I think the stronger power pitcher split is negated by the quality of pitchers involved. Oki hadn't thrown since 4/24, so he was well rested. When your usual 8th inning guy hasn't had work in 5 days, give him the ball to start the inning in a 1-run game. I'm pretty sure the intent was to buy an inning's worth of outs from MDC and not pitch Papelbon on consecutive days, but it almost blew up in his face, and luckily, Oki was able to shake off the rust and get the job done after coming in without his full warm-up.

 

 

I played against MDC growing up, so you can imagine I would hope for nothing but the best for the kid......but like me and you talked about in the past.....he has every single tool and advantage to be a big time setup man, but is missing something that I cannot put my finger on. At times, like his stretch last year, he is awesome.....and looks like he is fulfilling the tools which he is blessed with, other times he looks no better than a mop up guy. The set-up guy needs consistency. Timlin did it for all those years. You dont have to be lights out dominating, but the manager needs to know what to expect out of you before he puts you in the game. He cant turn to MDC every eighth inning knowing what he gets will be a crapshoot. A good setup man gives you solid outings 7 outta 10 times at least. MDC is probably hovering about 5 outta 10. They are winning....so thats a bright side, but if he doesnt pick it up, you have to think Theo will explore other options whether is be Hansen, or guys outside the organization.