Give and Take, Hall of Fame

[Thumper]

Okay, with TheKilo's recent topic of the 2008 Hall of Fame Ballot list, I got an idea for a good discussion/game sorta deal.

 

If you had the power to remove three players from the Hall of Fame that you feel really shouldn't be there, and put three players in their place that have since retired and have lost a chance at the Hall of Fame. With no questions asked, all scandals aside, who would the 6 players be and why? Just thought it would be a good spark for discussion about who should be in the Hall and what not.

 

For me, here's the three I'd remove:

 

1. Gary Carter

Okay, aside from 11 time All-Star his numbers are exceptional, but there's been other players with that, if not better that haven't been inducted. Say what you will, but I just don't think he belongs. And he's got a career .262 average to boot.

 

2. Joe McGinnity

He was an exceptional pitcher, don't get me wrong. Be he lasted but 9 years in the show and has barely over 1,000Ks, now that's a feat in it's own, but not Hall of Fame material. But the Veteran's Committee of '46 thought otherwise.

 

3. Gabby Hartnett

Okay so he has the record for most consecutive games without an error (452). While that's impressive, I don't see where his other stats are. .297 BA is respectable, but he had just under 2,000 hits and other average stats. That's not saying catchers are suppose to be offensively strong, they're not, they're there for the defense. And while Hartnett is superior in the #2 spot, I just don't believe a single record should determine Hall of Fame.

 

Okay now that you've s*** a brick about those choices, here's who I'd like to see in.

 

1. Pete Rose

4,256 hits plus a .303 average. Enough said.

 

2. Fredd Lynn

If we're inducting people for records, then why NOT Lynn? Hit the first ever grand-slam in an All-Star game, 9 time All-Star, All-Star MVP, Batting Crown, ALCS MVP, Regular Season MVP and Rookie of the Year in the same season, and 4 Gold Gloves, Lynn was an all around hitter/player. I know I said to those I took out that it shouldn't be based on just awards, but when you have a lot, and a respectable set of stats, it's good enough for the Hall. I had the privilege of speaking to a realtive of Lynn's and we discussed how he should be in the Hall of Fame. I really think he belongs.

 

And honestly I cannot think of a third for now.

 

Anyway, s*** a brick, have a heart attack, eat a bag of muddy dicks and attack me for my opinion. Then when you're ready, post your changes.

[TheKilo]

Not to nitpick, but Fred Lynn didn't win 9 MVPs.

 

Good thread idea though, I'd have to give it some thought.

[Thumper]

Not to nitpick, but Fred Lynn didn't win 9 MVPs.

 

Good thread idea though, I'd have to give it some thought.

 

My mistake, was typing too fast, meant to say 9 time All-Star.

 

I'll edit it.

[ORS]

1. Gary Carter

Okay, aside from 11 time All-Star his numbers are exceptional, but there's been other players with that, if not better that haven't been inducted. Say what you will, but I just don't think he belongs. And he's got a career .262 average to boot.

 

2. Joe McGinnity

He was an exceptional pitcher, don't get me wrong. Be he lasted but 9 years in the show and has barely over 1,000Ks, now that's a feat in it's own, but not Hall of Fame material. But the Veteran's Committee of '46 thought otherwise.

 

1. Pete Rose

4,256 hits plus a .303 average. Enough said.

 

2. Fredd Lynn

If we're inducting people for records, then why NOT Lynn? Hit the first ever grand-slam in an All-Star game, 9 time All-Star, All-Star MVP, Batting Crown, ALCS MVP, Regular Season MVP and Rookie of the Year in the same season, and 4 Gold Gloves, Lynn was an all around hitter/player. I know I said to those I took out that it shouldn't be based on just awards, but when you have a lot, and a respectable set of stats, it's good enough for the Hall. I had the privilege of speaking to a realtive of Lynn's and we discussed how he should be in the Hall of Fame. I really think he belongs.

Carter - He was one of the best catcher's of his era. When you state his numbers are comparable to "others", what position did the "others" play? What he did over his career as a catcher is pretty valuable. There are two with lower career OPS+ in the hall, kick them out first.

 

McGinnity - Yes, it was just 9 years, but consider the era. He didn't get his start until 28, and at the time it was common for a minor league team to not sell the rights to a player to a major league club (there was no direct affiliation at the time). Lefty Grove was stuck in Baltimore as the best pitcher in baseball until he was 25. Also, his era was one of fewer strikeouts. He did, however win 63.4% of his games, with 246 wins in 9 seasons. Young pitched 21 seasons for 511. Prorate his out to 21 seasons, and you would be complaining that Beckett didn't win the AL McGinnity award. I'd remove someone like Ruffing, a guy who compiled numbers through longevity without ever being remarkably impressive.

 

Rose - No, he broke the big rule. No exceptions. And, besides, it's not like he wouldn't be in if he were allowed. This isn't a case of him being "overlooked" by the voters.

 

Lynn - If you are going to penalize McGinnity for being short on longevity, why does Freddy get a pass?

[Cocos Disciples]

Joe Jackson.

[Jayhawk Bill]

Take away:

 

George Kelley: First baseman, fewer than 2,000 hits, fewer than 150 HR, under a .300 batting average, and a career OPS+ of just 109.

 

Lloyd Waner: An outfielder with a career OPS+ of 99.

 

Jesse Haines: Career ERA+ of 108, never led a league in any significant pitching category (wins, strikeouts, or ERA).

 

Add:

 

Dwight Evans: One of the few best right fielders in MLB history; 56th-best all-time hitter in runs created (for years the highest rank on that list of any HOF-eligible player not yet inducted).

 

Bert Blyleven: Best eligible pitcher not in the HOF. Fifth all-time in strikeouts; eighth in shutouts; tenth in career ERA; 26th in wins.

 

Ron Santo: Gold glove defender and power hitter who was the best OBP man of the second deadball era.

[Rodney Harrison]

Remove:

 

Phil Rizzuto:

 

1588 hits, career .273 hitter, power numbers sucked (38 career HR), 200 hits only once, benefited from playing on 8 WS winners.

[HeadOfSoxNation]

You've gotta take Mazeroski out...

 

I love Maz...his defense was sick...and he hit a huuuuge homerun...but he's a career .260 hitter. I mean, statistically, he's a 200 steals away from being a regular Royce FREAKING Clayton.

 

It's utterly ridiculous that Rose isn't in. There are straight-up cheaters in the Hall, and Bud says that's fine. But no Pete? Common.

[Rodney Harrison]

If you're taking Mazeroski out, then Ozzie Smith should also be out.

[Jayhawk Bill]

You've gotta take Mazeroski out...

 

I love Maz...his defense was sick...and he hit a huuuuge homerun...but he's a career .260 hitter. I mean, statistically, he's a 200 steals away from being a regular Royce FREAKING Clayton.

 

Defense matters. Defense matters big-time in the middle infield, and Mazeroski was perhaps the best at turning a double play in MLB history.

 

Bill Mazeroski is admittedly not an inner-circle HOF player, but he's very far from the three least worthy.

[HeadOfSoxNation]

I'm going to go out and say it...

 

...I don't like him, but after his tenure is over, Selig should be in the Hall of Fame. Thoughts?

[Mr Crunchy]

why have a hall of fame without pete rose?

he didnt cheat

he gambled

bill mazeroski is in the hall of fame and jim rice isnt?