The Struggles of C.M. Wang

[jacksonianmarch]

prior to that last start, he was inbetween Sabathia and Verlander in ERA. So with that ONE start, he is no longer in their range in ERA, hence you say it isnt even close. I thought you said you werent souring on him because of this ONE poor start. Cause it seems like you are.

[jacksonianmarch]

There are plenty areas that you can attack on this team if you want to whine. Mussina being mediocre at best, Pettitte faltering down the stretch, the lefties taking the first 3 months off, etc. But to complain about the most consistent pitching force on the team who is putting up nearly the exact same #s as he did last yr in a 19 win, 2nd in the CY voting season, then something is wrong on your end, not mine.

[yankees228]

prior to that last start' date=' he was inbetween Sabathia and Verlander in ERA. So with that ONE start, he is no longer in their range in ERA, hence you say it isnt even close. I thought you said you werent souring on him because of this ONE poor start. Cause it seems like you are.[/quote']

 

Of the nine guys I listed, you said his ERA was between the two guys with the seventh and eighth highest ERAs. Sabathia, Verlander, and Vazquez have considerably higher ERAs then the other six. What about those guys?

[yankees228]

There are plenty areas that you can attack on this team if you want to whine. Mussina being mediocre at best' date=' Pettitte faltering down the stretch, the lefties taking the first 3 months off, etc. But to complain about the most consistent pitching force on the team who is putting up nearly the exact same #s as he did last yr in a 19 win, 2nd in the CY voting season, then something is wrong on your end, not mine.[/quote']

 

What you call whining, I call listing some facts that might be different then the common perception. I chose Wang because everyone thinks so highly of him.

 

There are a lot of disturbing statistics I listed in my initial post. You chose not to respond to any of them.

[yankees228]

huh? So if a guy hits .340 like Cano did last season based mostly upon being white hot in the last 2 months' date=' he didnt have a good season? WTF are you smoking?[/quote']

 

Robinson Cano's 2006 Batting Average (by month):

 

April: .316

 

May: .275

 

June: .398

 

July: didn't play due to injury

 

August: .351

 

September: .373

 

Three of the five months in which he played, Cano had an exceptional batting average. One of those months he had a very good batting average. One of those months he had a mediocre batting average.

 

I wouldn't attribute his .342 batting average to two good months.

[jacksonianmarch]

What you call whining, I call listing some facts that might be different then the common perception. I chose Wang because everyone thinks so highly of him.

 

There are a lot of disturbing statistics I listed in my initial post. You chose not to respond to any of them.

 

because those stats all seem extremely similar to last season when he was an ace. You are comparing him to conventional power pitchers, which he is not. It is pretty obvious that his sinker is so good and so unique that he isnt really comparable to anyone but himself. So, I compare him to last season. And prior to this ONE BAD START WHICH YOU SAID WASNT YOUR REASONING FOR SOURING ON HIM, HE WAS DOING BETTER THAN LAST YR!

[ORS]

I believe it was you who said both Wang and Cano would be mediocre this season. I think you will have some crow to eat by the end of the yr.

I'd like to see where I did that. I recall stating Cano needed to adjust as the pitchers had found an approach to get him to make outs. And I recall stating Wang needed to mix it up more, which he has, to sustain success with his peripherals (which have improved).

 

And, I wouldn't necessarily bring up crow eating, or did you forget these nuggets:

 

The Yankees will run away with the AL East.

 

Even with Papelbon, the Sox 'pen is crappy. The Yankee 'pen will carry them to the division with Bruney, Proctor, Farnsworth, and Mo. [paraphrased]

[jacksonianmarch]

I eat crow with the best of them, lol.

[yankees228]

because those stats all seem extremely similar to last season when he was an ace. You are comparing him to conventional power pitchers' date=' which he is not. It is pretty obvious that his sinker is so good and so unique that he isnt really comparable to anyone but himself. So, I compare him to last season. And prior to this ONE BAD START WHICH YOU SAID WASNT YOUR REASONING FOR SOURING ON HIM, HE WAS DOING BETTER THAN LAST YR![/quote']

 

It's not like I'm comparing his fastball or his slider or his changeup to those pitchers. I'm simply comparing his success to the success of those guys. Are you saying that I can't compare Wang to anyone? Many people think of Wang as an ace. I'm simply comparing Wang's success to the success of other good AL pitchers.

 

If one pitcher relies heavily on his offspeed pitches (Cole Hamels) and one pitcher relies heavily on his fastball (Chris Young) I understand that you can't compare the way they pitch, but you can compare how well they have done.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

I'd like to see where I did that. I recall stating Cano needed to adjust as the pitchers had found an approach to get him to make outs. And I recall stating Wang needed to mix it up more, which he has, to sustain success with his peripherals (which have improved).

 

And, I wouldn't necessarily bring up crow eating, or did you forget these nuggets:

 

The Yankees will run away with the AL East.

 

Even with Papelbon, the Sox 'pen is crappy. The Yankee 'pen will carry them to the division with Bruney, Proctor, Farnsworth, and Mo. [paraphrased]

Be fair though, you guys cought lightening in a bottle with Okajima. Who would have thought an avarage japanese reliever would become the best setup man in the majors.

[ORS]

Be fair though' date=' you guys cought lightening in a bottle with Okajima. Who would have thought an avarage japanese reliever would become the best setup man in the majors.[/quote']

But he isn't the one and only difference between the two 'pens. In the beginning I said what I'll say again next year and the year after that. Variation for 90%, even some of the good ones included, of relief pitchers is so big that you can't make outright statements of prediction. So, while Okajima may have helped create the difference, he isn't why Jacko should eat a big plate of crow.

[Rdsxmbnt]

huh? So if a guy hits .340 like Cano did last season based mostly upon being white hot in the last 2 months' date=' he didnt have a good season? WTF are you smoking?[/quote']

 

no no no you misunderstood what I was saying. I was replying to the notion that having a bad first half and a good half = a mediocre season, which it does in a sense. If a players posts a .500 OPS the first half and a .900 OPS in the 2nd half you get a .700 OPS which is mediocre. In Canos case he was average or so for the first month we'll say .700 OPS and is red hot and say posts a 1.000 OPS you get a .850 OPS season which is very good (especially for a 2B). Doesnt matter how you do, I always prefer to look at the bottom line (which shows Cano is an elite 2B the past couple years).

[jacksonianmarch]

But he isn't the one and only difference between the two 'pens. In the beginning I said what I'll say again next year and the year after that. Variation for 90%' date=' even some of the good ones included, of relief pitchers is so big that you can't make outright statements of prediction. So, while Okajima may have helped create the difference, he isn't why Jacko should eat a big plate of crow.[/quote']

 

We can eat our crow together, sound good?

[ORS]

We can eat our crow together' date=' sound good?[/quote']

Sure, just show me where I said I thought they'd be mediocre this year.

[jacksonianmarch]

you are lucky that the post recall is only 500 and I cannot get back to your posts in March and April.

[ORS]

Luck's got nothing to do with it. I don't recall saying it, and my memory seldom fails me.

[jacksonianmarch]

Luck's got nothing to do with it. I don't recall saying it' date=' and my memory seldom fails me.[/quote']

 

You know you said it. Lets try and stay truthful here.

[ORS]

Give me a break. Now you are calling me a liar?

[jacksonianmarch]

Give me a break. Now you are calling me a liar?

 

Are you? I own up when I stick my foot in my mouth. You said that you would be surprised if Cano could hit over .300 again this yr since he has such poor plate discipline.

 

You also said that Wang would likely revert to being a middle of the road pitcher with a mid 4's era because he relies on his fielders too much.

 

I have been wrong a thousand times ORS and I'll own up to them. Your turn.

[yankees228]

Are you? I own up when I stick my foot in my mouth. You said that you would be surprised if Cano could hit over .300 again this yr since he has such poor plate discipline.

 

You also said that Wang would likely revert to being a middle of the road pitcher with a mid 4's era because he relies on his fielders too much.

 

I have been wrong a thousand times ORS and I'll own up to them. Your turn.

 

Even if he said those things, the first one is anything but a lock.

[jacksonianmarch]

Cano is at .308 in August. Close enough.

[TheKilo]

I'd say that Wang is on their level. He may not have their propensity for utter dominance' date=' but he does dominate in his own way and on a regular basis.[/quote']

 

Again, you didn't answer the question.

[ORS]

Are you? I own up when I stick my foot in my mouth. You said that you would be surprised if Cano could hit over .300 again this yr since he has such poor plate discipline.

 

You also said that Wang would likely revert to being a middle of the road pitcher with a mid 4's era because he relies on his fielders too much.

 

I have been wrong a thousand times ORS and I'll own up to them. Your turn.

But I was right, though. Cano's BB% and BA splits....

 

[table]Split|BB%|BA

PreASG|4.3|.274

PostASG|9.9|.419[/table]

 

And Wang is trending toward that way. His 3.36 1st half ERA was supported by a .272 BABIP. The 5.66 in the 2nd half is likely due to the .362 BABIP. The IsoD and IsoP are about the same, so he's tied to the performance of his fielders.

 

The reason I stated for their struggles is a caveat. In other words, by stating it, I am also saying my prediction won't hold if they fix it. I have no crystal ball. I didn't know when that cocky prick Hollywood was going to start listening to coaches, and I have no wish to get into that guesswork. I just said what I thought would hold him back. He looks like he's fixed it for now.

 

Your turn, you collossal douche.

[yankees228]

But I was right, though. Cano's BB% and BA splits....

 

[table]Split|BB%|BA

PreASG|4.3|.274

PostASG|9.9|.419[/table]

 

And Wang is trending toward that way. His 3.36 1st half ERA was supported by a .272 BABIP. The 5.66 in the 2nd half is likely due to the .362 BABIP. The IsoD and IsoP are about the same, so he's tied to the performance of his fielders.

 

The reason I stated for their struggles is a caveat. In other words, by stating it, I am also saying my prediction won't hold if they fix it. I have no crystal ball. I didn't know when that cocky prick Hollywood was going to start listening to coaches, and I have no wish to get into that guesswork. I just said what I thought would hold him back. He looks like he's fixed it for now.

 

 

 

Your turn, you collossal douche.

 

Your point about Wang, in short, was why I initially started this thread. It generated very few on-topic replies from Yankee fans, with the exception of ATG13.