Rich Harden Available?

[HeadOfSoxNation]

When your team is hitting .230 heading into games, you really can't pick or choose when a power threat like WMP is made available. Again, this is all speculation but it seems like WMP would be a likely trading candidate because I don't feel he's gonna get the playing time in Boston.

 

Another thing, too, is that Beane does not simply look for OBP guys just because Moneyball said he did. He looks for traits in players that other GMs around the league aren't. There was some discussion where he said he was looking towards good defensive outfielders with some speed, which explained the signing of Mark Kotsay. OBP is not his be-all and end-all.

 

I didn't mean that OBP was the be-all and end-all of what he looks for...but it is still a high priority. Take what you said...about looking for good defensive outfielders with some speed...Pena is, right now, niether of those things. All I was getting at is that other GMs wouldn't even inquire about Pena if everyone saw him as a guy who was going to play awful defense, strike out 13 out of 20 times at the plate, and only contribute on a rare occasion with a monster homerun. Beane is, as cliche as it may sound, a good baseball guy. If he didn't see any potential in Pena to evolve from the player he is now into something very desireable, he wouldn't have any interest.

[BSN07]

Harden as everyone has said is awesome when healthy. Maybe he needs a change of venue and pitching coach to help him keep healthy.

 

On that note, none of the 3 B´s, maybe Bowen, but Buscholz and Bard have a very hi ceiling, with Bard possibly being a cy young type. Cerrano Id send there way, Im not sure who in the minors tho, Murphy yes if they wanted him, no Ellsbury, Hansack yes(his value probably wont get too much higher after his performance in AAA so far), But as long as we dont send our top 10 prospects there way I wouldnt mind seeing him in the rotation...

[jacksonianmarch]

Bard is being tattooed in A ball right now. If they wanted Bard over Buchholz or Bowden, the sox would be fools not to do it.

 

And on another note, it is no fun having a team that is fantastic "when healthy". Because if you attach that monicker, then you know they must have a problem being healthy. You guys can afford the gamble since you have a few horses in the stable already. If Harden needs to Clemens a yr (miss half) then you wont be hurt so much. If we gave up some minor league horses and he missed a yr, we'd be devastated.

[BSN07]

This could all just be a ploy by Beane to try and get NYY interested in Harden as well...

[adam123]

This could all just be a ploy by Beane to try and get NYY interested in Harden as well...

 

good one man i never thought about that

[TheKilo]

This could all just be a ploy by Beane to try and get NYY interested in Harden as well...

 

Hope he asks for Hughes and Tabata.

[jacksonianmarch]

Hope he asks for Hughes and Tabata.

 

he'll get laughed at and hung up on.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

This rumor has resurfaced in the latest boston globe.

 

Rich Harden is returning from his stint on the DL and a bunch of teams will be watching him closely. Since the Red Sox missed out on Roger Clemens I would expect them to make a strong push for a deal to gain Harden's services. They currently have a team to win the World Series and one strong move could put them over the top.

 

So what would you do?.....Without question Billy Beane would ask for one of the following: Jon Lester, Clay Buchholz, or Michael Bowden. Trying to evaluate these three pitchers and determine which one I would most likely give up is extremely difficult. It would cost a decent position player in Coco Crisp, Brandon Moss, David Murphy, Wily Mo Pena, etc. (not Jacoby Ellsbury).

 

I don't see Jon Lester, Buchholz, AND Bowden making the Red Sox roster in the future so I expect one of them to be traded. Is Rich Harden the guy you want to trade for? Personally I'm not sure...I would wait to see if the Florida Marlins make Miguel Cabrera available.

[Rdsxmbnt]

Thats tough, Buchholz is a definite no and Bowden might also. Idk I really like Rich Harden but the injuries are really worrisome. I suppose id consider Lester though. A Beckett-Matsuzaka-Harden-Schilling-Wakefield would be very hard to say no to, while still having Buchholz and Bowden down on the farm, wow.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Thats tough' date=' Buchholz is a definite no and Bowden might also. Idk I really like Rich Harden but the injuries are really worrisome. I suppose id consider Lester though. A Beckett-Matsuzaka-Harden-Schilling-Wakefield would be very hard to say no to, while still having Buchholz and Bowden down on the farm, wow.[/quote']

 

I thought the same but consider Jon Lester is a lefty who is only 23 I believe. He isn't much older than Clay Buchholz and has established himself as a bonified starter at the MLB level.

 

However, as the debate could go on forever about the three starters...I think the Red Sox hold off for someone a little more reliable than Rich Harden (who in the end may not be any better than Lester, Buchholz, or Bowden)

[ksushi]

Harden as everyone has said is awesome when healthy. Maybe he needs a change of venue and pitching coach to help him keep healthy.

 

On that note, none of the 3 B?s, maybe Bowen, but Buscholz and Bard have a very hi ceiling, with Bard possibly being a cy young type. Cerrano Id send there way, Im not sure who in the minors tho, Murphy yes if they wanted him, no Ellsbury, Hansack yes(his value probably wont get too much higher after his performance in AAA so far), But as long as we dont send our top 10 prospects there way I wouldnt mind seeing him in the rotation...

 

 

Bowden might have the best ceiling out of all of them. Best control in the system and a fantastic curve ball, not to mention he is the youngest player in AA right now. Bowden is a keeper. He has a much better repetoire than papelbon or lester had at their age. He reminds me a lot of Bucholz and eventually he will explode like Bucholz. He could be in the Majors at 22 years old.

[example1]

Bowden might have the best ceiling out of all of them. Best control in the system and a fantastic curve ball' date=' not to mention he is the youngest player in AA right now. Bowden is a keeper. He has a much better repetoire than papelbon or lester had at their age. He reminds me a lot of Bucholz and eventually he will explode like Bucholz. He could be in the Majors at 22 years old.[/quote']

 

I will trust the FO to make the right call in when and for whom they deal any of those three guys. My vote would be that none of them are dealt and that by 2009 we have a rotation of the DiceKtor, Beckett, Lester, Buchholz and Bowden. I like Harden's stuff but I don't like his injuries AT ALL, and I am pretty sure that Billie Beane will be looking to strike the jackpot AGAIN for a guy of Harden's caliber (Lester, Crisp and Hansen for Harden + prospect). It's just not worth it to overpay for Harden.

 

There are a limited number of players that I would drop one of those guys very quickly for and Miguel Cabrera is the name that seems to keep coming up. I think Jason Bay or Matt Holliday fit into that category as well, though I don't expect them to be realistic options.

[TheKilo]

Highly doubtful our prospects are enough to get Miguel Cabrera unless we want to absolutely rape our farm system.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

There are a limited number of players that I would drop one of those guys very quickly for and Miguel Cabrera is the name that seems to keep coming up. I think Jason Bay or Matt Holliday fit into that category as well' date=' though I don't expect them to be realistic options.[/quote']

 

Thats pretty much what I would wait for as well. Money becomes the big issue with those three players because of the teams they play for. When those teams look to move a top of the line position player....a potential top the rotation pitcher would be the first thing they would look for. It might not be that far out of the question.

[example1]

Highly doubtful our prospects are enough to get Miguel Cabrera unless we want to absolutely rape our farm system.

 

I think that a guy like Ellsbury is exactly what FLA needs (lacking a solid CF prospect). They always like young pitching, and it doesn't get much better than Buchholz, Lester or Bowden. Not saying I would do all or any of that right away, but I think it is inevitable that Cabrera gets moved eventually.

[TheKilo]

I think that a guy like Ellsbury is exactly what FLA needs (lacking a solid CF prospect). They always like young pitching' date=' and it doesn't get much better than Buchholz, Lester or Bowden. Not saying I would do all or any of that right away, but I think it is inevitable that Cabrera gets moved eventually.[/quote']

 

You would trade all four for Cabrera? Because that's what it's going to take.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

You would trade all four for Cabrera? Because that's what it's going to take.

 

No thats not what it would take. If Florida is confronted with a situation where they feel its necessary to move a player based on financial reasons, they will do it. Lets not over value Miguel Cabrera...he is worth one of the three pitchers, Jacoby Ellsbury, and a young reliever.

[TheKilo]

No thats not what it would take. If Florida is confronted with a situation where they feel its necessary to move a player based on financial reasons' date=' they will do it. Lets not over value Miguel Cabrera...he is worth one of the three pitchers, Jacoby Ellsbury, and a young reliever.[/quote']

 

I respectfully disagree. Cabrera is going to be in Florida unless a team really bowls them over with an offer. I really think they can sit back and wait for teams to throw top-tier prospects at them for Cabrera. As good as the guys you have mentioned are, I think a team like Anaheim could provide a better package for him.

[ORS]

I think Cabrera hits FA. Think about it. He will be the biggest FA to hit the market since ARod, and he will get the next mega-deal. Nobody is going to want to give up a truckload of prospects if they can't work out a deal to extend him before FA, and I don't think there's any way he doesn't want to test the market. The next big thing with 5 or 6 of the big money teams after him? There's no way he gives that up.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

I respectfully disagree. Cabrera is going to be in Florida unless a team really bowls them over with an offer. I really think they can sit back and wait for teams to throw top-tier prospects at them for Cabrera. As good as the guys you have mentioned are' date=' I think a team like Anaheim could provide a better package for him.[/quote']

 

Can't under estimate the Red Sox farm system, its one of the better ones at the moment and we have some of the better pitching prospects in the league. Jacoby Ellsbury may be our only blue chip position player but he will be an All-Star. Thats a pretty good package if you ask me. Not too many teams in baseball would offer a package like that, especially Anaheim who rarely makes any deals.

 

If the Marlins were to ask for Lester, Buchholz, Bowden, and Ellsbury....they aren't being realistic and clearly wouldn't be looking to seriously make a deal. No team in baseball would make that deal.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

I think Cabrera hits FA. Think about it. He will be the biggest FA to hit the market since ARod' date=' and he will get the next mega-deal. Nobody is going to want to give up a truckload of prospects if they can't work out a deal to extend him before FA, and I don't think there's any way he doesn't want to test the market. The next big thing with 5 or 6 of the big money teams after him? There's no way he gives that up.[/quote']

 

I think he is a free agent after 2009. The arbitration is whats killing the Marlins.

[TheKilo]

Can't under estimate the Red Sox farm system, its one of the better ones at the moment and we have some of the better pitching prospects in the league. Jacoby Ellsbury may be our only blue chip position player but he will be an All-Star. Thats a pretty good package if you ask me. Not too many teams in baseball would offer a package like that, especially Anaheim who rarely makes any deals.

 

If the Marlins were to ask for Lester, Buchholz, Bowden, and Ellsbury....they aren't being realistic and clearly wouldn't be looking to seriously make a deal. No team in baseball would make that deal.

 

 

ehhhh....after the prospects you mentioned there's not much else.

[ORS]

No, arbitration isn't killing them. They can spend a little money when needed. They had a payroll close to $70M the year after they won the WS. They've been dumping talent for prospects lately and trading away salary because they know they need to rebuild more often than most teams because they can't afford to keep a roster at that level. I think they'll keep him as long as they can, and will only trade him if their requests for the moon in return are met. And, I don't see that happening because I think Miggy will test the market.

 

It could go the other way, but I'll be shocked if they accept less than their demands. Just like it will be very surprising if he elects to sign an extension with a trading team. All the factors point to free-agency.

 

I will say this, if he doesn't make it to the market, then the Sox should spare no expense to get him on the roster and extended long-term.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

No, arbitration isn't killing them. They can spend a little money when needed. They had a payroll close to $70M the year after they won the WS. They've been dumping talent for prospects lately and trading away salary because they know they need to rebuild more often than most teams because they can't afford to keep a roster at that level. I think they'll keep him as long as they can, and will only trade him if their requests for the moon in return are met. And, I don't see that happening because I think Miggy will test the market.

 

It could go the other way, but I'll be shocked if they accept less than their demands. Just like it will be very surprising if he elects to sign an extension with a trading team. All the factors point to free-agency.

 

I will say this, if he doesn't make it to the market, then the Sox should spare no expense to get him on the roster and extended long-term.

 

Hard to say whats behind the thinking of the Florida Marlins. True they probably have the money to keep Miguel Cabrera but the owner is notorious for wanting to rake large profits on a low income team. He may still be trying to persue a new stadium as well. Currently Cabrera takes up 25% of the teams payroll and will probably get an arbitration settlement around $13 million next season. At that point he will have 40% of the teams payroll. Do they want to invest that money in one player or bring in two-three young studs? Thats a question only the Marlins can answer.

[ksushi]

Well, in regards to re-signing once or twice in a lifetime talents, you can criticize the marlins for leaving Miguel Cabrera without an extension and maybe Dontrelle too. As far as the firesale thing, trading Miguel might be a great idea right now. The firesale tactic works wonders for them. WS title in 97, firesale that netted them Burnett, Beckett and others. WS title in 03, firesale and well we'll wait and see what happens with this crew but this looks like maybe their best returns yet. Olsen, Johnson, and Anibal all have ace stuff. Hanley has a chance to be a once in a lifetime type player. Willingham, Jacobs, and Uggla have a lot of talent too. Who knows.

 

I would love to see Miguel Cabrera not get traded and hit the market. He hits at the same time as Manny... just sayin'

 

As for Harden, no way does Beane trade him IMO. They need him and they need him healthy if they want to do anything at all this year and I think Oakland is getting tired of the lack of returns on Moneyball lately.

[example1]

Well, in regards to re-signing once or twice in a lifetime talents, you can criticize the marlins for leaving Miguel Cabrera without an extension and maybe Dontrelle too. As far as the firesale thing, trading Miguel might be a great idea right now. The firesale tactic works wonders for them. WS title in 97, firesale that netted them Burnett, Beckett and others. WS title in 03, firesale and well we'll wait and see what happens with this crew but this looks like maybe their best returns yet. Olsen, Johnson, and Anibal all have ace stuff. Hanley has a chance to be a once in a lifetime type player. Willingham, Jacobs, and Uggla have a lot of talent too. Who knows.

 

I would love to see Miguel Cabrera not get traded and hit the market. He hits at the same time as Manny... just sayin'

 

As for Harden, no way does Beane trade him IMO. They need him and they need him healthy if they want to do anything at all this year and I think Oakland is getting tired of the lack of returns on Moneyball lately.

 

Harden is just the type of player that Beane likes to deal. He's a young pitcher whose stuff alone is worthy of trading top prospects... for a lot of teams at least. How could the Yankees not made a really strong run at a guy like Harden?

[CrespoBlows]

Harden is just the type of player that Beane likes to deal. He's a young pitcher whose stuff alone is worthy of trading top prospects... for a lot of teams at least. How could the Yankees not made a really strong run at a guy like Harden?

 

Can you name one other player like Harden that Beane has traded?

[TheKilo]

Harden is just the type of player that Beane likes to deal. He's a young pitcher whose stuff alone is worthy of trading top prospects... for a lot of teams at least. How could the Yankees not made a really strong run at a guy like Harden?

 

Another issue here is that Beane, the leader of keeping cost-effective players, is trying to deal a guy who has the potential to be an ace and is cost controlled.

 

Does that not wave any red flags?

[example1]

Can you name one other player like Harden that Beane has traded?

 

Tim Hudson and Mark Mulder both come to mind if you're talking about in-their-prime pitchers who a team in a "win now" situation might choose not to deal.

 

Are you saying that Beane always holds onto his best pitchers until their contracts expire?

[TheKilo]

Tim Hudson and Mark Mulder both come to mind if you're talking about in-their-prime pitchers who a team in a "win now" situation might choose not to deal.

 

Are you saying that Beane always holds onto his best pitchers until their contracts expire?

 

I think if you use these guys as an example, look no further than this afternoon's start for Mr. Hudson.

 

Mulder has been plagued by shoulder injuries.

 

Obviously Beane didn't think these guys could get it done in the AL anymore. If he's shopping Harden it means he doesn't think he can do it anymore, probably due to injury.