Should the Sox resign Schilling out of Spring training?

[scaffolds]

While the market for pitching, specially starting pitching went wild this Winter and very average pitchers are now making miliions and millions of dollars the answer to the question is NO. Schilling was just OK in 2006 and isn't not longer the ACE of the RED SOX pitching staff and the fact that he will be 41 yrs before the 2008 start is another proof of it. A starting staff of Beckett, DiceK, Papelbon, Wakefield and Lester should be better than with Schilling on it. Lester should have all of his health issues behind him and also he should had refine his pitching skill in 2007, but if he doesn't the Sox will have Buchholz in the very close horizon or even if they have to the free agent route with Beckett and Dicek in the front and Papelbon, Wakefield in the middle they would only be looking for a end of the rotation type. The Sox don't need to spend 13millions on Schilling no out of Spring training.

[riverside sluggers]

Who catches Wakefield next season then?

 

---Bring back Mirabelli for his age 38 season?

---George Kottaras is on the fast track to be the backup catcher from Tek next season. Should the Sox burden him learning the staff by giving him the crazy knuckleball every 5th day?

[scaffolds]

Kottaras isn't going to be in Boston to be sitting on the bench, the 2008 might be tek at 36 yrs last year with the Red Sox.

[ksushi]

I resign Schilling at 13 mil right now, which he indicated would get it done. Move wake to the pen and throw a rotation of Beckett, D-Mat, Papelbon, Schilling and Lester.

 

This also depends who hits the market next fall. If there is someone the Sox have their eye on, Schilling does free up quite a bit of bank, and I wouldn't be averse to the Sox going out and inking someone a little younger.

[jacksonianmarch]

nabbing a guy with his resume and still with good stuff for one yr is something they should do, so long as they are caring more about flexibility than bottom line.

[scaffolds]

Wakefield is a different pitcher out of the pen than a starter, he may be to inconsistent to be a reliever. In my opinion Wakefield will be a starter (health issues not pending) for the next two years (2007 and 2008). Again Schilling isn't the pitcher that he was in 2004, even in crazy market 13 millions a year for his decline in pitching is too much.

[example1]

Nah. You keep a guy like Schilling around because:

 

a) at WORST he's ML average for a #3-4 pitcher

 

you have at least three pitchers who will benefit greatly by being able to say "I pitched with Curt Schilling for 'x' years". (Matsuzaka, Papelbon, Beckett in particular, Lester as well).

 

c) If you get into the playoffs you want Curt Schilling pitching for you, period.

 

Sign him for one more year at 13m. Overspend to get the guy to stick around and retire a Red Sox. No brainer if you ask me.

[riverside sluggers]

Kottaras isn't going to be in Boston to be sitting on the bench' date=' the 2008 might be tek at 36 yrs last year with the Red Sox.[/quote']

 

Im just going from what Ive heard on NESN, Boston sports writers.

 

Why should it be Tek's last year with the Red Sox? He could still sign to be a backup on a 2 or 3 year deal while helping the kid as he breaks into the majors. Im sure the Sox would pump in to him the storyline of him playing his whole major league career with the same team, a rarity these days. Without a doubt they'd then be sure to offer him som coaching job when all is said & done

[scaffolds]

Im just going from what Ive heard on NESN, Boston sports writers.

 

Why should it be Tek's last year with the Red Sox? He could still sign to be a backup on a 2 or 3 year deal while helping the kid as he breaks into the majors. Im sure the Sox would pump in to him the storyline of him playing his whole major league career with the same team, a rarity these days. Without a doubt they'd then be sure to offer him som coaching job when all is said & done

 

Because Tek is making 10 millions for the next two year and its very unlikely that he wouldn't sign for less, and a 36 yrs Tek isn't worthed that kind of money specially when hhis bat started to show signs of a decline.

[riverside sluggers]

Well of course he wouldnt be getting $10 per if they re-signed him to be a backup. Name one team seriously that would sign a 37 year old Tek to that type of contract

[scaffolds]

Well of course he wouldnt be getting $10 per if they re-signed him to be a backup. Name one team seriously that would sign a 37 year old Tek to that type of contract

 

Do you think he would sign for a back up job in two years? I don't think he will, specially with Boras as an agent.

[scaffolds]

Nah. You keep a guy like Schilling around because:

 

a) at WORST he's ML average for a #3-4 pitcher

 

you have at least three pitchers who will benefit greatly by being able to say "I pitched with Curt Schilling for 'x' years". (Matsuzaka, Papelbon, Beckett in particular, Lester as well).

 

c) If you get into the playoffs you want Curt Schilling pitching for you, period.

 

Sign him for one more year at 13m. Overspend to get the guy to stick around and retire a Red Sox. No brainer if you ask me.

 

I think that you are confusing the 06 Schilling to the 04, not even close and if he is a #3 or 4 starter those kind of starters don't make that kind of money.

 

Most of the Red Sox fans are players fan, i am a fan of the name in the front rather than the name on the back.

[ksushi]

Boras could get Rosie O'Donnell a 10 Million a year deal as a starter in the bigs (obviously she'd be behind the plate), so I highly doubt he is going to have a tought time finding a starting job for Varitek, especially when you consider the scarcity of a good catcher these days.

[scaffolds]

I don't understand your post, you contradicts yourself.

[example1]

I think that you are confusing the 06 Schilling to the 04, not even close and if he is a #3 or 4 starter those kind of starters don't make that kind of money.

 

Most of the Red Sox fans are players fan, i am a fan of the name in the front rather than the name on the back.

 

You only care about the name on the front, huh? How noble of you. Let us all bow in your presence.

 

Schilling's average game score last season placed him 16th in all of baseball. He finished ahead of, among others, Bonderman, Bedard, Capuano, Verlander, Zito, Rogers, Willis, Lowe, Glavine, Felix Hernandez, and Wang.

 

Very simple statistic and it certainly doesn't capture everything, but it puts standardized weight on particular game occurances that impact one's chances of winning. A strike out is a point a hit is -2, etc., Looking at the list of the top 15 I see a great number that are among the best pitchers in baseball:

 

Santana

Carpenter

Webb

Sabathia

Oswalt

Zambrano

Smoltz

Halladay

Arroyo

Young

Schmidt

Mussina

Peavy

Lackey

Harang

Schilling

Myers

 

He was 14th in K/9, 14th in OBP against. The man was 12th in K's and his 6.54 K/BB ratio was far and away the best in baseball (by 1.33 over Santana's 5.21).

 

If you're arguing that I'm thinking about '04 Schilling I expect you to show me some stats to back it up. Not only am I thinking about '06 Schilling, I'm putting out a significant amount of proof that Schilling is still one of the best 20 pitchers in baseball, he is a workhorse and certainly an ABOVE average #3. Even with the traditional ERA stat Schilling had a better season than Capuano, Bonderman, Peavy, Westbrook and Pettitte, finishing 29th in overall ERA. He went 9-1, with a 3.06 ERA in 94 IP at home last year, striking out 91 and walking 10. If he does that again next year in half of his starts we'll be happy to have him.

[ORS]

You only care about the name on the front, huh? How noble of you. Let us all bow in your presence.

 

Schilling's average game score last season placed him 16th in all of baseball. He finished ahead of, among others, Bonderman, Bedard, Capuano, Verlander, Zito, Rogers, Willis, Lowe, Glavine, Felix Hernandez, and Wang.

 

Very simple statistic and it certainly doesn't capture everything, but it puts standardized weight on particular game occurances that impact one's chances of winning. A strike out is a point a hit is -2, etc., Looking at the list of the top 15 I see a great number that are among the best pitchers in baseball:

 

Santana

Carpenter

Webb

Sabathia

Oswalt

Zambrano

Smoltz

Halladay

Arroyo

Young

Schmidt

Mussina

Peavy

Lackey

Harang

Schilling

Myers

 

He was 14th in K/9, 14th in OBP against. The man was 12th in K's and his 6.54 K/BB ratio was far and away the best in baseball (by 1.33 over Santana's 5.21).

 

If you're arguing that I'm thinking about '04 Schilling I expect you to show me some stats to back it up. Not only am I thinking about '06 Schilling, I'm putting out a significant amount of proof that Schilling is still one of the best 20 pitchers in baseball, he is a workhorse and certainly an ABOVE average #3. Even with the traditional ERA stat Schilling had a better season than Capuano, Bonderman, Peavy, Westbrook and Pettitte, finishing 29th in overall ERA. He went 9-1, with a 3.06 ERA in 94 IP at home last year, striking out 91 and walking 10. If he does that again next year in half of his starts we'll be happy to have him.

Thanks for doing what I put off until later. Schilling is no a no-brainer resign. Not because of the name, but because he'll be a value when people like Gil Meche, that's right I said Gil Meche, can earn $11M for their mediocrity.

[example1]

Thanks for doing what I put off until later. Schilling is no a no-brainer resign. Not because of the name' date=' but because he'll be a value when people like Gil Meche, that's right I said Gil Meche, can earn $11M for their mediocrity.[/quote']

 

 

Thanks ORS. It's not very hard to do, but I'm just sick of people bagging on Schilling when he is the LEAST of our problems and he only wants a ONE year deal. If he were demanding 3 or 4 I would have a very hard time with it but one is no problem.

[jacksonianmarch]

I dont think you can jump all over scaff here guys. Look at what is on his side.

 

Pre-AS break ERA- 3.61

Post AS break ERA- 4.58

 

Pre AS break BAA- .255

Post AS break BAA- .310

 

last season was his highest OPS against season of his career sans the 2005 debachle. Last season was by far his highest SLG against and was one of his highest OBP against yrs. Last season was the first season of his career (once again sans 2005 injury plagued yr) where he allowed more hits than IP (by 16 which is a ton). He is now 40 and 2 yrs removed from a catastrophic injury, something that a 25 yr old would be expected to regain form after, but a 40 yr old? Last yr, it wasnt even that injury that started to let him down. His body began to break down in other areas too. And anyone who watched him could see that the stuff started to slip.

 

Listen, I think the sox should snap him up if they dont have the option to do so in season, but the argument can be made that he is finally going over the slippery slope. And would you like to guarantee that he plays the next 2 yrs for you when there are some serious reservations about how well he comes out this yr?

[example1]

I dont think you can jump all over scaff here guys. Look at what is on his side.

 

Pre-AS break ERA- 3.61

Post AS break ERA- 4.58

 

Pre AS break BAA- .255

Post AS break BAA- .310

 

last season was his highest OPS against season of his career sans the 2005 debachle. Last season was by far his highest SLG against and was one of his highest OBP against yrs. Last season was the first season of his career (once again sans 2005 injury plagued yr) where he allowed more hits than IP (by 16 which is a ton). He is now 40 and 2 yrs removed from a catastrophic injury, something that a 25 yr old would be expected to regain form after, but a 40 yr old? Last yr, it wasnt even that injury that started to let him down. His body began to break down in other areas too. And anyone who watched him could see that the stuff started to slip.

 

Listen, I think the sox should snap him up if they dont have the option to do so in season, but the argument can be made that he is finally going over the slippery slope. And would you like to guarantee that he plays the next 2 yrs for you when there are some serious reservations about how well he comes out this yr?

 

 

Yes, I would like to guarantee that he plays the next 2 yrs for the sox despite those numbers. If he puts up another year like last year, having a good half and a bad half, the sox will STILL be better off having him than they would be with some other replacement jerk. It is obvious that he's on the downturn of his career, he SHOULD be. That doesn't mean he'll be bad, he just won't be an ace. Fortunately they have Matsuzaka, Beckett and Papelbon to pick up some of the slack, making Schilling just the piece they may need to have a solid shot at a WS.

[riverside sluggers]

Very true example, its not like the Sox & fans are expecting Schilling to be the ace for 2008. At that time, there will be three 27 year old hard throwers with the potential to easily lead the pack.

[jacksonianmarch]

Very true example' date=' its not like the Sox & fans are expecting Schilling to be the ace for 2008. At that time, there will be three 27 year old hard throwers with the potential to easily lead the pack.[/quote']

 

I can completely see your POV and respect that. But at the same time, Schilling begins the season as your ace this yr. He has to. The other guys around him are even bigger question marks than he is (in terms of coming off a down yr, injury problems, injury problems and a position switch and coming to a new country). He needs to be the stabilizing force for at least the first half of the season. Now what if the argument now is, is Schilling the same guy he was on the whole last yr, the guy who pitched magnificently the first half, OR is he the guy who struggled mightily through the second half. Those are three different beasts altogether, and a second half schilling is not worth 13 mil. And even moreso is the fact that he'd be two yrs older at that time, so expect a decline.

 

The point is, Schilling and Randy have seemed to mirror each other the past few yrs. Randy was solid one yr and abysmal the next. I think the sox want to avoid the abysmal yr that will come one day if Schill continues to pitch. The thing we will never know is if the abysmal yr is coming in 1, 2, 5 yrs from now.

 

Thing is, the sox should snap him up if he does not leave a mid season signing open to the team. There would be too much to lose if he does come back strong and only a minimal gain if he leaves in the development of a hopefully healthy Jon Lester.

[BSN07]

Let him become a FA at the end of the season. If he pitches good then offer him the one yr deal then. If he doesn't let some other team sign him. Letting him hit the FA market is no big deal, he wants to stay in Boston, Even if some other club offers him more money, we can still say that he said 13M would be enough to bring him back. If he all the sudden ups his price then let him walk. I love Schilling but to sign him to a yr extension now is not money well spent. He earned the respect of everyone for the championship he helped bring, but if he wants a yr extension then I say make him earn it this yr and if he does talk contract in November 07.

[Mr Crunchy]

ya but if you come into camp with jd drew getting more money than a guy who risked his career and perhaps permanent damage to his ankle??

a man who came into town with 1 thing on his mind,to end an 86 year old curse,then he delivers under the hardest of circumstances i say pay him or else you may have a bitter guy on the mound who may indeed become a pain in the ass if this isnt addressed

 

and would you blame him...

[BSN07]

And if he turns out to be a player like that then I say f*** him. I wouldn't want a guy like that on the team anyway. Besides, no matter what the contract situation is hes going to pitch his ass off. Because if Boston doesn't sign him he will be looking for a new team, he has to look good no matter what. If he is a pain in the ass and pitches like s*** no one will want him.

[BSN07]

Trust me, I like schilling and am grateful for what he did, but Pedro,Damon,Lowe, OC, Bill M. where all part of that team too and gave it there all but we let them all walk when the team thought there where over pricing themselves, its the same thing with Schilling it just happend a couple yrs later. Besides the FO has been making plans for the money that they wouldn't be paying him in 08 after he said 07 was his last season.

[Mr Crunchy]

Trust me' date=' I like schilling and am grateful for what he did, but Pedro,Damon,Lowe, OC, Bill M. where all part of that team too and gave it there all but we let them all walk when the team thought there where over pricing themselves, its the same thing with Schilling it just happend a couple yrs later. Besides the FO has been making plans for the money that they wouldn't be paying him in 08 after he said 07 was his last season.[/quote']

 

good point

and let us not forget schilling is the same guy who ripped scott williamson a new ******* for not pitching despite the fact that williamson had a dislodged tendon in his arm that ended his season on the operating table

schilling is a pompous self righteous bitch who can be a f***ing prick to deal with in and out of the lockeroom

 

that being said

i get him signed today for the same money

gil meche cost 11M?? then schill is worth 13 all day long

we'll get 200ip and 200ks with an era 3.50-4.00 which is good in the al

[BSN07]

Next yr where looking at,

 

1.Matsuzaka

2.Beckett

3.Paps

4.Lester

 

We will have one spot to fill in the rotation(if Wak retires), which can be filled internally or buy a lower cost FA. The money Schilling wants might be ear marked for a 3B,1B or an OF.

 

All I'm saying is don't hand that money to him now, see if he's worth it during the season, if so sign him next November, and if he isn't or jumps his price up then let him walk. I think there is enough talent in the rotation for us to have a rookie or a cheaper vet in the 5 spot.

 

I just don't see them dishing out a good chunk of money to a player who seems to be declining, if they didn't do it for Pedro then I don't see them doing it for anyone, besides Clemens and he hasn't shown the decline Schilling has.

 

If all else fails sign him now and if he sucks ass this yr we can ship him to AZ for some nice young prospects!(Johnson trade):thumbsup:

[Fried Neckbones]

I just don't see them dishing out a good chunk of money to a player who seems to be declining' date=' if they didn't do it for Pedro then I don't see them doing it for anyone, besides Clemens and he hasn't shown the decline Schilling has.[/quote']

 

The big difference there is that Pedro wanted 4 years. Schilling wants 1. I say that the benefit of having a Schilling on your staff, especially with all the young guys that the Sox are counting on for the future and the way that he traditionally steps it up for big games, outweigh the $13 million. Sign him. If the money was indeed earmarked the FO will have an entire season to figure out where it's going to come from for '08. If he leaves they probably would have had to sign another pitcher anyway, and the market seems to be on an upturn in the favor of the player, especially the middle-of-the-road starter. There is no way they could find a comparable player, in terms of cost and what he brings to the table.

[Mr Crunchy]

pedro was declining fast and furious and they still offered him 45M? i think

 

schilling on the other hand was coming off of a horrible injury in 05 and still put up very good al east #s in 06.

if you dick around with him this spring it may come back to haunt you in the summer

if you were schilling and you know damn well youre getting paid by someone next year why would you break your balls and risk injury pitching for the ungreatfull pricks who wouldnt re up you despite all you risked for them??

 

it can only get worse for the sox if they wait

[TheKilo]

I think last season showed there's never a thing as too many pitchers.

 

Sign Schilling, start the kids in AAA, and if there's an injury of some kind call them up.

 

 

Curt Schilling > Jason Johnson and Kyle Snyder