Deseperate Times...?

[noonanberg]

I'm not jumping off the bus yet because the wild card is still a fair possibility and heck even the AL East could happen by a stroke of luck, however, I don't think the Sox can win with the team they are fielding and way they are playing. I think a few things need to change. First Jason Johnson should never be allowed in a ballgame again. He's brutal. The minute Wakefield gets back he should be sent down. And speaking of Wakefield he is the key. He's been overlooked with all the Varitek talk, but we need him. He can always give you seven innings. He will finally give us a respectable rotation. When Wake comes back, tandem Lester and Snyder. By that I mean let Lester know, hey, we want you to give us at least four good innings. That's it. After that we'll bring in Snyder to get to the bullpen. I think Lester is trying to do too much because he knows how valuable the games are and how much they need him to go deep in games. I don't think that's helping his psyche. Maybe if you tell him he just needs to give four, anything more is a bonus, he'll relax a little more and maybe throw a little better. Then again maybe he won't, but it's at least worth a try because let's face it our fifth starter when Wake comes back is either him, Johnson or Snyder, so take a pick. I just think by utilizing both Lester and Snyder as a combo they may both be more effective. Third, and I'm probably going to get killed for this suggestion, get Willy Mo out of the everyday lineup. Yes, I know he can hit the ball as hard as anyone. And sure, he may be a great power hitter in a couple years, but right now this guy is just a slightly better version of Mark Bellhorn. Put Hinske in right and get someone who can both field and hit. Willy Mo's been costing us in both areas. When lefties are pitching, sure, start Pena, but for righties keep Hinske in. Fourth, give Foulke the set up role. Let's face it Timlin and Hansen can't do it. Delcarmen is off and on. Just go with Foulke, he can't do any worse than anybody else, and maybe just maybe he'll do better. Maybe he'll actually keep the leads at 2 & 3 so Papelbon doesn't have to save games with the bases loaded in the eighth, or with two on and no outs in the ninth like it seems he does way to often. If Foulke fails all you are is where we've been all along. Fifth, like this would ever happen, Francona needs to start getting creative. Do you know why the Yankees win? Because, minus when ARod is batting, they don't ground into many double plays. They get runners in scoring position whenever they can. And they get those runners home however they have to. Francona doesn't even try. The stupid Sox mentality of no stealing has got to go. Crisp should have 20+ steals right now. Gonzalez should be in double digits. You can even steal with a few no namers every once in a while. It could work. But it's not just steals. Bunting. Move runners more. Hell, have Ortiz bunt now and again and give many someone to knock in. Hit and runs with the bases loaded. Suicide squeezes. Whatever. Do something besides hunch over in the dugout and spit seeds. Yeah, I know those things I just mention don't always work, but no one expects us to do some of them either. Why not chance it? The batters aren't doing a good enough job of knocking the runs in themselves (as evidenced by this weekend's disgraceful LOB total). Try to get those runs across anyway you can because the bullpen needs a five run lead at least just to have a chance. Most of all, the players need to want it and I don't think that's been the case. The Yankees win because they don't want to lose. The Sox win because they had a good day. That's the difference between the playoffs and an early off- season. Schilling wants to win. Lowell wants to win. Papi and Paps want to win. Loretta wants to win. Youkilis wants to win. Everyone else just wants to not lose. Not to surprising that everyone else is usually the reason we do lose.

[Mr Crunchy]

if indeed we are preparing for the future then i say we take lester out of the rotation today and move him into a middle role

put either hansen into the starters roll

or perhaps we can put paples in that roll and use hansen as the closer

that was their original intent i believe wasnt it??

 

i fear that in persuit of keeping payroll intact and trying to be competetive they may indeed blow one of these kids arms or heads away in the last 6 weks of the season and that my friends would be unforgivable

[RoyNHSox]

if indeed we are preparing for the future then i say we take lester out of the rotation today and move him into a middle role

put either hansen into the starters roll

or perhaps we can put paples in that roll and use hansen as the closer

that was their original intent i believe wasnt it??

 

i fear that in persuit of keeping payroll intact and trying to be competetive they may indeed blow one of these kids arms or heads away in the last 6 weks of the season and that my friends would be unforgivable

 

You want to make all of these moves now? To begin with Hansen was demoted to AAA today. Are you serious?

[riverside sluggers]

noonanberg...

 

-- Jason Johnson was released after he lost the first game of the double header on Friday. Kason Gabbard will take the spot for now until Wakefield comes back

 

-- Get Wily Mo out of the every day lineup? If he's the expected starting right fielder for 07 then he shouldnt be domoted to the bench altogether

[jsinger121]

if indeed we are preparing for the future then i say we take lester out of the rotation today and move him into a middle role

put either hansen into the starters roll

or perhaps we can put paples in that roll and use hansen as the closer

that was their original intent i believe wasnt it??

 

i fear that in persuit of keeping payroll intact and trying to be competetive they may indeed blow one of these kids arms or heads away in the last 6 weks of the season and that my friends would be unforgivable

 

Lester is not a middle man and that would be a foolish move just like moving Hansen into the rotation.

[Soxfan1]

IMO hinske should have pinch hit for Pena when he came up with the bases loaded. As for Hansen, send him down to the Minors. He is f***ing up in the majors. Hopefully its not another Cla Merideth story.

[jsinger121]

IMO hinske should have pinch hit for Pena when he came up with the bases loaded. As for Hansen, send him down to the Minors. He is f***ing up in the majors. Hopefully its not another Cla Merideth story.

 

Hansen has a hell of a lot more ability and talent than Cla Meredith ever had.

[Soxfan1]

Thats not the point. Merideth was a fine young talent as is Hansen. Merideth got shaken up mentally when he got roughed up by the yanks. Hansen didn't get hit as bad, but still got a loss and gave up 2 home runs in an inning. For all you know, he could have been hit mentally just as hard as Merideth was.

[riverside sluggers]

Hansen has been sent down because he has been shaken up since the All-Star break, not just last nights game where he easily gave up 3 runs (2 HRs)

[noonanberg]

Well however hard Meredith was hit, he's not doing bad now. Got the W for the Pads last night. They were saying he's only let up like 4 hits against righties in 54 innings or something ridiculous like that. Those numbers probably aren't exactly right, but whatever they were it was impressive. I guess the key for young Sox talent is to get traded to the Padres.

[jsinger121]

Thats not the point. Merideth was a fine young talent as is Hansen. Merideth got shaken up mentally when he got roughed up by the yanks. Hansen didn't get hit as bad, but still got a loss and gave up 2 home runs in an inning. For all you know, he could have been hit mentally just as hard as Merideth was.

 

1. Meredith was not a top prospect and was not highly thought of so your wrong there.

2. His blowup came against the Mariner's Richie Sexson.

3. Taking your lumps is all about being a young player. Hansen's ability is there and he is still likely to be a very effective pitcher.

[Rdsxmbnt]

And to expand on hte Lester-bullpen thing, Lester has said that he cant pitch out of hte bullpen, I think because he needs more time to warm so its basically starter or nothing for him.

[noonanberg]

here's a crazy suggestion. i don't know how many have heard of him, but how about giving charlie zink a try? zink is pitching in pawtucket and is having a solid year.

 

W L ERA G GS CG SO S IP H R ER HR BB K

8 2 3.82 20 12 0 0 0 94.1 85 45 40 6 54 49

 

Zink has converted himself to a knuckleballer, but he also has a deeper arsenal which can make him a deadly pitcher once he masters his command a little more. According to bostondirtdogs.com Zink has a low 90s fastball and decent curve. i don't know how zink has been pitching (pitch selection wise) in the minors, but with that arsenal he could be hard to handle. imagine being a batter and having to sit on either the 70 MPH knuckler or the 90 MPH fastball. that wouldn't be fun. from my understanding zink's knuckler isn't as deadly as Wake's, but wake also can't throw the ball 20 MPH harder when he wants to either. zink could be a great bullpen or rotation pitcher who might help the sox. giving their recent woes, i don't see why you wouldn't give him a shot.

[jsinger121]

I would have given Charlie Zink the start on Friday against NY instead of Johnson.

[a700hitter]

And to expand on hte Lester-bullpen thing, Lester has said that he cant pitch out of hte bullpen, I think because he needs more time to warm so its basically starter or nothing for him.

Well, at this point, he's not a major league starter. If he can't pitch out of the pen he should be in the minors.

[Mr Crunchy]

Hansen has a hell of a lot more ability and talent than Cla Meredith ever had.

 

based on what??

his 11.50 era since it mattered or what the big east news letter says??

********

he has 0 confidence and has pitched accordingly

 

lester looks like bambi out there

how much longer do we let him get his ass handed to him before we move him back to portland or pawtucket or as i suggested,back to the middle of the pen??

ya hes untouchable

unless hes on the mound

then he gets touched more than jenna jamieson and its the sox fans getting f***ed.

 

the ""team"" needs to be careful now that it dont matter

all you guys who wanted the seadogs contributing got your wish

and now we're heading into the shitter

problem i have is some of these guys may indeed have mental issues with their complete and utter meltdowns...

who gives a s*** if hansen throws 98 when he cant find the plate and has to come in on 3-1 counts religously

ask beckett what happens when you cant change speeds or toss breaking balls for strikes

same goes for lester

the kid tap danced during the last 3 weeks of his season

sure he went 5-0 thru the softness of the nl and the kc royals of the league but when teams waited him out he was useless,

 

my point is this

if we're going to use the kids then use them right or let them develop right

guessing and hoping with pitchers is dumb and dumber

the front office has no f***ing clue what to do next,none

 

jon lester came up as a spot starter and ended up the 3

bad move and it may effect him forever here

but

at least we got wily mo eh??.....

thank god for wily mo

as the yankees have no answer for him (outside of scoring 47 runs in 4 games)

[CrespoBlows]

Enough with the Cla Meredith comparisons.

 

The guy has a 1.00 ERA in 23 IP's. He isn't damaged goods at all. (Meredith)

[Mr Crunchy]

didnt rudy have a similar era in the same park last season?

 

i can swallow a lot s*** and have following this team thruout the years but this has to be the biggest disappointment i can remember

 

we

who didnt want to see the pawsox playing in boston in august,knew this was coming and even when we were 3-4 games up after killing the national league

would admit we were short on the pitching

 

stevie wonder saw this coming

[Toshi]

What a tough pill to swallow......I was so looking forward to this series as the point where we made our push, but well.....never give up hope, but 6.5 back with 38 games left? We'll need a lot of help from a bunch of sub .500 teams to keep the Yanks in striking distance. This series exposed a couple things loud and clear for the whole league to see:

 

PITCHING - it has come to the point that we need our starter to go 8 and paps to go 1 in order for us to win. There is not one penner that can hold a lead past 1/3 of an inning. There's gotta be some good arms out there. I know we have a lot of injured hurlers this time of the year, but look at the Yanks, they needed to replace Matsui and Sheff, so they went out and did it. They knew Bernie was getting old, so they bought Damon. I'm not saying that Yank FO are geniuses, but they know what they need and damn well go and get it.

 

YANKS LINEUP - when does the madness end? I don't watch many Yanks games, just read the box scores, so this weekend was really the first opportunity this season to take a good look at them. WHAT THE HELL!! Posada's batting eighth??? They kept the pressure on every inning, no lead was safe, they bat around how many times? What's gonna happen when Matsui and Sheffield comes back? Is Sheff batting ninth?

 

BOSTONS LINEUP - Unlike in football, defense does not win championships in baseball. Yes, we have probably the best defensive team Boston has ever had, but can they hit? After Manny, the lineup is, well....just trying to get on base, or hit it out of the park. I didn't feel like the Yanks feared facing Crisp, Pena, Mirabelli, and Cora in a row. Even Papi had an off series, we cannot always depend on him to carry the team or win the game.

 

Its not over, but 5 games hurts real bad right now..........

[pudge]

based on what??

his 11.50 era since it mattered or what the big east news letter says??

********

he has 0 confidence and has pitched accordingly

 

lester looks like bambi out there

how much longer do we let him get his ass handed to him before we move him back to portland or pawtucket or as i suggested,back to the middle of the pen??

ya hes untouchable

unless hes on the mound

then he gets touched more than jenna jamieson and its the sox fans getting f***ed.

 

the ""team"" needs to be careful now that it dont matter

all you guys who wanted the seadogs contributing got your wish

and now we're heading into the shitter

problem i have is some of these guys may indeed have mental issues with their complete and utter meltdowns...

who gives a s*** if hansen throws 98 when he cant find the plate and has to come in on 3-1 counts religously

ask beckett what happens when you cant change speeds or toss breaking balls for strikes

same goes for lester

the kid tap danced during the last 3 weeks of his season

sure he went 5-0 thru the softness of the nl and the kc royals of the league but when teams waited him out he was useless,

 

my point is this

if we're going to use the kids then use them right or let them develop right

guessing and hoping with pitchers is dumb and dumber

the front office has no f***ing clue what to do next,none

 

jon lester came up as a spot starter and ended up the 3

bad move and it may effect him forever here

but

at least we got wily mo eh??.....

thank god for wily mo

as the yankees have no answer for him (outside of scoring 47 runs in 4 games)

Im starting to question theos talent evaluation skills.

[a700hitter]

What a tough pill to swallow......I was so looking forward to this series as the point where we made our push, but well.....never give up hope, but 6.5 back with 38 games left? We'll need a lot of help from a bunch of sub .500 teams to keep the Yanks in striking distance. This series exposed a couple things loud and clear for the whole league to see:

 

PITCHING - it has come to the point that we need our starter to go 8 and paps to go 1 in order for us to win. There is not one penner that can hold a lead past 1/3 of an inning. There's gotta be some good arms out there. I know we have a lot of injured hurlers this time of the year, but look at the Yanks, they needed to replace Matsui and Sheff, so they went out and did it. They knew Bernie was getting old, so they bought Damon. I'm not saying that Yank FO are geniuses, but they know what they need and damn well go and get it.

 

YANKS LINEUP - when does the madness end? I don't watch many Yanks games, just read the box scores, so this weekend was really the first opportunity this season to take a good look at them. WHAT THE HELL!! Posada's batting eighth??? They kept the pressure on every inning, no lead was safe, they bat around how many times? What's gonna happen when Matsui and Sheffield comes back? Is Sheff batting ninth?

 

BOSTONS LINEUP - Unlike in football, defense does not win championships in baseball. Yes, we have probably the best defensive team Boston has ever had, but can they hit? After Manny, the lineup is, well....just trying to get on base, or hit it out of the park. I didn't feel like the Yanks feared facing Crisp, Pena, Mirabelli, and Cora in a row. Even Papi had an off series, we cannot always depend on him to carry the team or win the game.

 

Its not over, but 5 games hurts real bad right now..........

If all of our starters could have gone 7 innings in this series, the Red Sox would have won this series. The bullpen sucks, but we have needed the bullpen way too much because the starters can barely go 5.

[Toshi]

If all of our starters could have gone 7 innings in this series, the Red Sox would have won this series. The bullpen sucks, but we have needed the bullpen way too much because the starters can barely go 5.

 

Kinda too late this year, but who do ya think is out there that would be available and a good addition for next season? I'm curious what you all think on this topic. Anything on the farm? :dunno:

 

"BTW i'm talking pitchers here..."

[MC Hammer]

if indeed we are preparing for the future then i say we take lester out of the rotation today and move him into a middle role

put either hansen into the starters roll

or perhaps we can put paples in that roll and use hansen as the closer

that was their original intent i believe wasnt it??

 

i fear that in persuit of keeping payroll intact and trying to be competetive they may indeed blow one of these kids arms or heads away in the last 6 weks of the season and that my friends would be unforgivable

Yes lets move both Hansen and Lester into spots they will never fill in the future.

 

I strongly doubt after pitching more than half the season, Lester or Hansen are going to forget how to throw a baseball and suddenly blow their arms out.

[Mr Crunchy]

i strongly suggest you watch these 2 kids pitch with your eyes open

they nibble

they dont challenge hitters till theyre behind in the count because theyre confidence is in the shitter

neither of these guys have pitched this much baseball in their careers and neither pitched in a bigger stage under brite lites either

these are lesters #s in august

 

DATE Opponent Result IP H R ER BB K GB FB PIT BF S OBA WHIP ERA*

Aug 2 Guardians W 6-5 6.0 8 3 3 1 3 3 9 110 24 0 .270 1.50 3.59

Aug 8 @Royals L 4-6 5.0 6 4 4 3 5 4 8 105 25 0 .272 1.80 3.86

Aug 13 Orioles W 11-9 5.0 9 4 4 2 3 5 13 102 25 0 .283 2.20 4.09

Aug 18 Yankees L 11-14 3.2 8 7 7 3 4 5 4 95 21 0 .293 3.44 4.72

August Average/Total 19.2 31 18 18 9 15 17 34 412 95 0 .279 2.08 8.24

 

19.2 ip

412 pitches thrown??

this will either shatter his confidence or his arm at this rate

 

craig hansens august is similar if not worse

 

DATE Opponent Result IP H R ER BB K GB FB PIT BF S OBA WHIP ERA*

Aug 1 Guardians L 3-6 1.1 3 2 1 0 1 2 2 25 6 0 .300 2.73 4.91

Aug 3 Guardians L 6-7 1.2 0 0 0 0 2 1 1 16 4 0 .287 0.00 4.56

Aug 5 @Devil Rays L 5-8 1.0 2 3 3 1 2 0 2 26 6 0 .296 3.00 5.47

Aug 8 @Royals L 4-6 1.0 1 1 0 1 0 2 1 21 6 0 .297 2.00 5.26

Aug 12 Orioles W 8-7 1.0 0 0 0 1 0 1 2 16 4 0 .288 1.00 5.06

Aug 13 Orioles W 11-9 0.2 3 2 1 0 0 2 2 22 5 0 .303 15.00 5.27

Aug 16 Tigers W 6-4 1.1 1 0 0 0 0 3 1 13 4 0 .301 0.91 5.02

Aug 18 Yankees L 11-14 0.1 2 3 3 1 0 2 0 21 4 0 .310 30.00 5.90

Aug 20 Yankees L 5-8 1.0 3 3 3 0 2 0 4 22 6 0 .320 3.00 6.60

August Average/Total 9.1 15 14 11 4 7 13 15 182 45 0 .300 2.47 10.61

 

9.1 innings

182 pitches and an era thats on pace to be calculated by nasa

 

what is our plan now?

these are the guys who along with beckett are responsible for this teams misery

all this happened in a month as well

 

so do we want lester throwing 110 pitches every 5 days or do we want him to develop some confidence which he is sorely lacking??

hansen should stay in pawtucket for the rest of the season as well as a closer

pena should be immediately inserted into the 5 hole in the lineup

nixon has played his last meaningful game in boston so why not give wily the shot??

 

they already f***ed the season up

i dont want them to f*** these kids up any more than they already have

[rician blast]

Sean, good points and I share your concern regarding the mental health of these youngsters if they aren't handled correctly from here on.

 

A couple of additional points related to the young arms:

 

(1) In MLB sometimes the highest value of a young player is a "perceived" or projected value...for example when Lester was in the minors and was deemed "untouchable" his value was probably higher than it is now that he's been showing his immaturity. A couple of months ago, a trade involving a Lester/Delcarmen combination or Lester/Hansen would have likely netted something siginificant.

 

Did Sox management fck up a good thing by rushing him into the #3 slot (beyond what it did to his psyche) and the once untouchable Mr. Lester is no longer viewed as a sure thing around MLB?

 

Did management similarly do the same with Hansen....whose first stint in the bigs began right after college? I saw Wily Mo turn around a 98 mph fast ball that had no movement recently...if he can do it, then certainly the leagues best hitters will do the same with Hansen. He needs to lean how to pitch.

 

Hanley Ramirez was part of a trade that brought Beckett and Lowell to Boston...it was a trade based on Hanley's "perceived" value (and of course, as all Markin's trades are, a dumping of salary).

 

I wonder now, though, if the young Sox arms would command a similar return right now, since they've been exposed to some extent?

 

 

(2) After Tony Cloninger left the club for medical reasons in 2003, Dave Wallace stepped in as pitching coach. I found this blurb in Dave's bio:

 

at the time of his appointment by the Red Sox, was serving the Dodgers as Senior Vice President/Baseball Operations, overseeing the organizations minor league operations and consulting with General Manager Dan Evans on baseball operations ...

 

So he was a front office guy, wasn't working as a pitching coach at the time? I wonder why?

 

Wasn't such an issue when you in 2004 when you had Schilling, who probably doesn't need to listen to Davey, Pedro who wouldn't ever listen to Davey, DLowe who was too drunk to listen to Davey, Arroyo who's ears were too muffled from rock music to hear Davey and a BP that had a clue. Davey got a WS ring...but IMO was along for the ride.

 

My point? If you're going to try and run a staff with youngsters and posers and wannabes, ya better damn well have someone who can get the most outta them. Is Wallace able to help young guys "learn to pitch?" or help veterans make the adjustments necessary to be more effective? Seems the Yankees do a lot better with no names than the Sox do.

[Mr Crunchy]

what could dave wallace tell curt schilling in the 8th inning of a 3-2 game with guys on 1st and 3rd and 1 out??

EH CURT WE NEED A K HERE??

wtf

no s*** jack

 

i simply hate the fact that we wasted what may be schills last season as an ace and perhaps the greatest season of 3/4 hitters in history

 

meanwhile al nipper is guiding jon lester and the other young arms??

great,whats he got for advice??

how to get booze burn all over your face in a short 45 years??

[rician blast]

meanwhile al nipper is guiding jon lester and the other young arms??

great,whats he got for advice??

how to get booze burn all over your face in a short 45 years??

 

sticking with this theme, between limitations with the Sox ability as an organization to develop young pitchers, and the FO ABILITY to blow smoke up our asses, how do we know Lester, Delcarmen, Hansen aren't the next:

 

Kevin Morton?

Brian Rose?

Paxton Crawford?

Lenny DiNardo?

 

all of whom did next to nothing despite being touted as the next big thing.

 

or maybe they'll be the next:

Aaron Sele?

Jeff Suppan?

Paul Quantrill

 

all who were equally overblown and had mediocre careers but zero success in Boston.

 

how's that saying go? you fool me once...etc.

[Mr Crunchy]

juan bustabar

frankie rodriguez

jon curtis

jon curtice

 

please

im on my 2nd percocette of the morning

 

prospects are not religous statues that are to be worshipped

theyre usually never more valuable than they are when theyre being dangled as trade bait

 

meanwhile in pittsburg freddy sanchez is hitting .350 and mike gonzales is closing for the bucs

in florida

hanley is having an outstanding year and anibal sanchez has pitched better than any of our ""untouchables"" and better than the 10,000,000.00 josh beckett

 

LAST 6 GAMES

 

OPP W L SV IP H ER BB SO

07/25 @ATL 1 0 0 7.0 7 1 0 3

07/30 @PHI 0 1 0 4.1 4 8 6 2

08/04 LA 0 1 0 6.0 6 2 0 5

08/10 @WAS 0 0 0 6.0 5 2 4 2

08/15 @LA 0 0 0 6.0 3 0 4 3

08/21 WAS 1 0 0 7.0 4 1 4 4

 

look

im not pretending that miami or pittsburg is boston

however

it seems that when dumping prospects theos dumped the wrong guys on every occasion with the exception of the fossum for schilling deal

 

its mind boggling

either we have a plan for the future or we play for today

we've actually did neither this year

 

again

im more disappointed than angry

they have no plan outside of generating revenue and pimping off every single inch of the fenway neighborhood while bending the fans over and ass raping them

by putting jon lester and jj johnson on the mound in must win games against ny

[CrespoBlows]

didnt rudy have a similar era in the same park last season?

 

Yeah, but Seanez was striking out every batter he faced last year. His fastball was hitting 97 mph, and he could get people out with his secondary pitches.

 

Meredith is different. He keeps the ball on the ground, and can get a strikeout once in awhile. The Red Sox were a bit too hasty in making that trade.

 

Theo looks like his draft picks will do OK, but he seems to be lacking when it comes to making trades.

[Mr Crunchy]

im hurting on the inside

if and i mean if there is a solid plan and system in place i need to see it for myself

as it stands

it appears to me that we're rudderless

for all sox fans out there that live and die with every at bat

this season has blown up and ended very very poorly for all concerned