It time to fire Theo !!

[Jon_Papelboner]

Even if anybody wanted to fire Theo, they couldn't. He hItz So ManY cLuTchZ hoMerZ

[Mr Crunchy]

strike out alot?

record pace sir.

his portfolio in the K department will exceed dave kkkingmans

 

if you recall back in the day kingman would hit 40homers a year

 

i remember 1 of them hit the house behind wrigley field and an old lady came out the door wondering who was stoning her house,it was before espn and im thinking it was nbc's saturday game of the week

 

he was also a guy you could get out when need be and i dont recall many people considering him for cooperstown either despite impressive home run totals

[RoyNHSox]

strike out alot?

record pace sir.

his portfolio in the K department will exceed dave kkkingmans

 

So I guess you’re of the belief that his plate discipline will never improve with time and development? He’s only 24 and has never had any significant time in the minors to work on this aspect of his game. My impression is that he is making adjustments with his approach at the plate and I believe this will cut down on his labeling as an 'easy out'. For a system that is lacking for power I still think he has major value for the Sox for many years to come.

 

Comparing WMP at this point in his career to Dave Kingman seems a bit unfair. He probably will always have a high K rate, but with his power potential I think it’s something the Sox can live with and work around.

[riverside sluggers]

strike out alot?

record pace sir.

his portfolio in the K department will exceed dave kkkingmans

 

Proof that this year he's on pace to break the single season record for Ks?

[SCM33]

No. We all know he should have been playing RF lately. Pena is better than Nixon. Nixon is the 4th OF on this team.

 

 

I remember when I made a thread about this a while back when I criticized Nixons power outage and was crucified for it. Funny how things change.

 

Like I said then, now and completely agree.....WMP is a MUCH better option. He is seriously punishing the baseball, and while he does look foolish sometimes, it is remarkable the adjustments he makes during games rather than week to week like he once did.

[SCM33]

Wily Mo is an excellent example of Theo’s long-term plan that frustrates so many people. He’ll never get a break from some because he was tied to the Arroyo trade, and they always cherry-pick his negatives as a basis for their attachment to Arroyo. What other young and devloping power hitters don’t strike out a lot?

 

 

Sox fans are never satisfied. There really shouldnt be much discussion. Everyone in these parts forgets how mediocre Arroyo was. If Bronson Arroyo makes or breaks your season, then there are other big time problems. He is not a #2, or #3....he is a #4 at best. Yes, he may be better than some of the options we have at #4 right now, but if you are relying on your #4 to make or break your season....then there are other glaring issues.

 

Why can't people just accpet the fact that Bronson Arroyo had ZERO upside, and his trade value would NEVER be higher than it was? WMP has an unlimited ceiling and people in the Reds forums still bitch today abotu the move. He has a whole tool shed of tools and ability. Bronson Arroyo was not going to get better, only worse.

 

If rumors came out that he could have traded away Bronson for WMP and didn't he would be crucified just the same right now, and we would be bitching and moaning about Gabe Kapler starting in RF everyday, Nixon being hurt, and the fact that Theo didnt pick up a quality OF at the trade deadline.

[schillingouttheks]

I remember when I made a thread about this a while back when I criticized Nixons power outage and was crucified for it. Funny how things change.

If you're saying that I crucified you for it, you're wrong. I don't recall ever posting anything that denied a Nixon power outage. If you can find a post of mine that did say it, I'll eat crow, but as far as I know I made no such claim.

[SCM33]

If you're saying that I crucified you for it, you're wrong. I don't recall ever posting anything that denied a Nixon power outage. If you can find a post of mine that did say it, I'll eat crow, but as far as I know I made no such claim.

 

 

No, not you.....i was quoting you bc i was agreeing with you, but some people felt i was dead wrong.....sorry if it confused you.

[schillingouttheks]

Haha yeah, no problem.

[SCM33]

strike out alot?

record pace sir.

his portfolio in the K department will exceed dave kkkingmans

 

if you recall back in the day kingman would hit 40homers a year

 

 

Actually, career averages over a 162 game season says that WMP strikes out an average of 155 times per season. Significantly lower than the season record, and Kingman averaged 152 a year.

 

In addition, Big Papi averages 133 per season, and Manny averages 130. Add that in the fact that WMP is becoming a better hitter, is still very young, and learning. I suspect those numbers will come down.

[ORS]

Even if anybody wanted to fire Theo, they couldn't. He hItz So ManY cLuTchZ hoMerZ

G. A. Y.

 

Really, why come here and make a fool of yourself?

[jacksonianmarch]

Since the Royals seres the red sox have gone 8-8. I see a loty of people talking about how bad the sox fifth starter is and that they need to get a new one. You need to look at the numbers. Over the last 16 games, in the last 4 starts by guys who will rotate into the 5th spo in the rotation (Gaberd, Snyder, and Johnson), they have the had the lowest era of any1 who has rotated. Look ath te numbers. Schilling has an era of 5.76 in his last 4 start, Beckett a 6.5ERA in his last 3, Lester a 6.75ERA in his last 3, and Wells has a 7.6ERA in his two. The combined 5 hole ERA over their last 4 starts is 3.91. It is nt really the bullpen's fault that they have to be perfect because the starters arent getting it done. If the 5 hole stays the same and Shilling, Beck, and Lest start pitching like they were before, then the relief will be fine. If the top 3 startres continue to have an ERA in the low 6 area, then no bullpen can help the sox then.

[schillingouttheks]

Wait, wait, wait. Think about what you're saying.

 

You're telling us to have more faith in Jason Johnson, Kyle Snyder, and Gabbard, than Schilling, Beckett, or Lester.

[jacksonianmarch]

No, I am saying that the 5th startr spot hasn't been death to the sox like it has been seen like. It's the whole rotatin not steppin up.

[ahhchon]

Trust me, Theo understands better than ANY OF US the importance of pitching and what it takes to build a winning team.

 

i don't agree that theo needs to be fired nor do i think he is doing a bad job. but i definately do not think theo understands baseball better than any of us. i would not be surprised if a few guys from here could manage the sox as well, if not better than he could.

 

john

[Goalstopper]

My dad agrees but i am not so sure.

[Jon_Papelboner]

Well if your dad agrees then thats all that matters.

[ahhchon]

Well if your dad agrees then thats all that matters.

 

my favorite talksox post to date.

 

john

[Mr Crunchy]

this is what i suspected and think is the reason why me and others find the arroyo for pena deal to be unbelievably numbing and frustrating

 

a quote from tony mazz in yesterdays herald says it all

 

The Red Sox have subscribed to a similar philosophy during the last few years, naturally, which will put even more emphasis on the pitchers when the Yankees come to town. The Sox spent much of their time leading up to the deadline discussing trades for a number of relievers, asking about everyone from Houston Astros right-hander Brad Lidge to San Diego Padres righty Scott Linebrink to Pittsburgh Pirates lefties Damaso Marte and John Grabow.

One major league executive said the Sox were pushing hard to move outfielder Wily Mo Pena for pitching help, which makes you wonder (again) why the Sox ever dealt Bronson Arroyo for Pena in the first place.

 

http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=151597&format=&page=4

 

damaso marte??

brad lidge??

 

for pena??

 

ya

the front office is banking on him for 10 years

[god is a redsox FAN]

I think Brad lidge is a lil risky business. I would rather have delcarmen pitching IMO over Lidge at this point.

[Mr Crunchy]

brad lidge is steve blass and mark wohlers bastard offspring

 

since last fall when he blew the deciding game of the pennant and a world series game on walkoff home runs hes been awful and useless to anyone

[Cityofchampions33]

Well if your dad agrees then thats all that matters.

 

HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA, classic, def sig worthy

[Cityofchampions33]

i dont recall many people considering him for cooperstown either despite impressive home run totals

 

I doubt Arroyo or any similar pitcher is being considered for Cooperstown

[Cityofchampions33]

but i definately do not think theo understands baseball better than any of us.

 

I disagree with you, baseball ahs many different variables to it, and it is definately harder than it looks. Yiou have to be able to know how to scout otehr teams, project how a player might be years down the road, judge talent, know what to offer and to whom, etc. IMO, baseball is the hardest sport to run a team in

[ahhchon]

I disagree with you, baseball ahs many different variables to it, and it is definately harder than it looks. Yiou have to be able to know how to scout otehr teams, project how a player might be years down the road, judge talent, know what to offer and to whom, etc. IMO, baseball is the hardest sport to run a team in

 

how much time do you devote to baseball? REAL baseball? while most people are here chatting away, posting what ortiz is doing in the dugout during the game instead of watching the game i'm:

 

watching the game on tv, watching some game on mlbtv (usually with a young pitcher that was just called up) running one of my 6 fantasy squads, 2 of which are keeper leagues that i've been in for years and play for with money.

 

granted fantasy baseball is different than real baseball i can say that anyone who can run a successful fantasy squad for numerous years (i'm talking about top 2 finish) and does their OWN scouting on players to draft should be a half decent GM.

 

you need to realize that most people (me for example) work 25 hour weeks, carry a full school load (19 credits, pathology, neuroscience, motor control, middler year writing, labs for all 3), do community service, volunteer at nursing home, visit my grandmother 2X a week and run my own charity organization don't have as much time as theo epstein does.

 

give me his salary and his job and i bet i could do a decent job, maybe not as good at first, but give me a season or two and i bet i could be as good if not better.

 

john

[SCM33]

how much time do you devote to baseball? REAL baseball? while most people are here chatting away, posting what ortiz is doing in the dugout during the game instead of watching the game i'm:

 

watching the game on tv, watching some game on mlbtv (usually with a young pitcher that was just called up) running one of my 6 fantasy squads, 2 of which are keeper leagues that i've been in for years and play for with money.

 

granted fantasy baseball is different than real baseball i can say that anyone who can run a successful fantasy squad for numerous years (i'm talking about top 2 finish) and does their OWN scouting on players to draft should be a half decent GM.

 

you need to realize that most people (me for example) work 25 hour weeks, carry a full school load (19 credits, pathology, neuroscience, motor control, middler year writing, labs for all 3), do community service, volunteer at nursing home, visit my grandmother 2X a week and run my own charity organization don't have as much time as theo epstein does.

 

give me his salary and his job and i bet i could do a decent job, maybe not as good at first, but give me a season or two and i bet i could be as good if not better.

 

john

 

 

I almost puked reading this thread. I suggest finding a girlfriend. Who brags about how much of a geek they are anyway?

[Mr Crunchy]

i was seriously thinking he was banging the young pitcher when i read this.

 

""watching some game on mlbtv (usually with a young pitcher that was just called up""

[RoyNHSox]

My take on the whole long term plan idea of being competitive and financially responsible is a laudable philosophy and I hope it does bear out over the next few years. I did read parts (intro) of “Feeding The Monster” that does shed more insight on Theo’s plan, and I can buy into the idea that there will be one year (this year I guess) where the transition of being more financially responsible to financially prudent will take place during this rebuilding.

 

I guess what frustrates me is the timing of the plan. Up until a month ago the Sox were steamrolling through the season with one of the best records in MLB. By all signs they had an excellent chance of winning the AL East. Then after the ASB we saw the team playing a more .500 level of play. There were clear needs that could be addressed, mostly in the pitching department. But the trade deadline came and went and no moves to improve the team were made. The reasons have been discussed at great length in other posts and threads.

 

So again my frustration is that why did the transition year have to be this year, when there was/is an excellent chance the Sox could have done some serious damage in the postseason, given their good start. By no means do I think that is now impossible, or that the Sox don't have what it takes to make it to the postseason and beyond. But maybe a move at the trade deadline, albeit costly, could have enabled this goal to win the WS.

 

I feel that Curt's clock is running out of time, that Papi and Manny are peaking, that the team defense has been spectacular, and for the sake of bad timing (?) that this season was somehow written off (bad choice of words, maybe) as more of that transitional rebuilding year instead. I sound like a typical fan that wants to have their cake and eat it too I guess. I still feel the Sox's chances are excellent to make the postseason with the current personnel, but deep down I wish more could have been done this season in terms of improvement and take advantage of everything that is/was going the Sox way. I still hold out hope that the Sox make it to the postseason until it's mathematically impossible, so I hope nobody thinks I'm giving up the ship...never.

[BoSox34]

how much time do you devote to baseball? REAL baseball? while most people are here chatting away, posting what ortiz is doing in the dugout during the game instead of watching the game i'm:

 

watching the game on tv, watching some game on mlbtv (usually with a young pitcher that was just called up) running one of my 6 fantasy squads, 2 of which are keeper leagues that i've been in for years and play for with money.

 

granted fantasy baseball is different than real baseball i can say that anyone who can run a successful fantasy squad for numerous years (i'm talking about top 2 finish) and does their OWN scouting on players to draft should be a half decent GM.

 

I wouldn't be proud of that, and uh..just because you can run a fantasy team against your buddies and watch a baseball game doesn't mean you could be a good GM, you need to go to law school and learn about law and business management to be qualified. You can't just put the fact that you play fantasy baseball on your resume. You need the credentials and the background to even be considered for that position, so saying "give me his salary and I can do just as good as him" is fantasy talk.

[the FRANCH15E]

Not wanting to trade your young players now (and jeopardize the future) to help the current team isn't a good excuse. The Sox are a team that doesn't need to necessarily have to worry about young players as they are a team with the financial means to sign good players at the end of each season. So not wanting to trade away prospects that may never turn out to be anything to help this sesaon when there's a chance to go all the way just doesn't make sense. There were some definite gaps that the Sox could have filled to really bear down for the stretch run.

 

I mean if you take a look at the Reds, they went out and aggresively tried to fill their holes and they aren't even a team that anyone really fears yet the Red Sox have a brutal battle with the the Yanks, White Sox, and Twins on their hands for the next 2 months and did nothing. They really needed some pitching help especially with the trouble the Yankees and White Sox have had (and the Twins now face with Liriano's injury). The team with the stronger staff in the playoffs will be the only ones who will be able to compete with the Tigers right now.