Would you?

[a700hitter]

No, I'm not assuming they would have fielded s*** teams, but those two guys have turned into bonafide superstars at their positions. Superstars that the team has had at below market value due to the nature of the 6 years of cost controlled time the teams get for young players. Replacing those two would have required either the loss of more future talent (maybe Ellsbury before his breakout this year), or the very risky proposition of the FA market, a market you feel is a massive failure for Epstein over his tenure. I think they would have fielded competitive teams most likely, but the risk was smaller in keeping the players, from the money end at least.

 

Sure, risking production on prospects is risky, but the FA market, for this management group at least, appears to be just as risky.....with the added onus of longterm commitments of financial resources that strain future spending.

Again, the question was posed to us as fans, not as GMs. World Championships are very rare. In 45 years of being a fan, I have seen 2 of them . At the time the question was asked in this thread, I had seen 1. I would gladly have traded those two for a guaranteed championship. As of today, it wouldn't have been a bad bet. I hope that after this year the result of the bet changes, but that's not going to be easy. You are reading consequences and ripple effects into this that were not part of the premise of the bet.

[a700hitter]

If a similar bet were posed today, I'd gladly give up any two guys from our current roster to guarantee a World Championship. After winning, management would find a way to cope with losing those guys and be just fine. Life would go on for the Red Sox, and there would be another Championship Banner hanging at Fenway for eternity.

[Youk Of The Nation]

I wouldn't trade any two guys on the team for a WS this season. Okay, well, any two tradeable guys, anyways. (Not including players no one would want, like McDonald, Drew, Scutaro, et cetera). Mainly because it's the guys on this team who are going to win a WS this season.

[Spudboy]

Oye.

[a700hitter]

I wouldn't trade any two guys on the team for a WS this season. Okay' date=' well, any two tradeable guys, anyways. (Not including players no one would want, like McDonald, Drew, Scutaro, et cetera). Mainly because it's the guys on this team who are going to win a WS this season.[/quote']Hopefully so, because rhis thread will become moot for ever after and it can be closedm. Lol!

 

Two posts from my bud Spud in the same day. Hopefully, this will become a habit.

[ORS]

Again' date=' the question was posed to us as fans, not as GMs. World Championships are very rare. In 45 years of being a fan, I have seen 2 of them . At the time the question was asked in this thread, I had seen 1. I would gladly have traded those two for a guaranteed championship. As of today, it wouldn't have been a bad bet. I hope that after this year the result of the bet changes, but that's not going to be easy. You are reading consequences and ripple effects into this that were not part of the premise of the bet.[/quote']

Not really. The premise of the bet was stated 5 years ago. The second half of this thread is retrospective of that premise. We know more now than we knew then. This extra knowledge isn't a ripple effect, it's a known quantity. Yet, in the face of that, you posit that your stance on the original premise is still correct (mind you, although I did not post in this thread, I agree with trading for a championship in 2006), and I find that position a little bit illogical. Things have worked out swimmingly for the Sox, in terms of keeping their prospects, and it's hard to argue that the actual events that transpired is not a superior place to be than taking the championship in the original premise.

[a700hitter]

Not really. The premise of the bet was stated 5 years ago. The second half of this thread is retrospective of that premise. We know more now than we knew then. This extra knowledge isn't a ripple effect' date=' it's a known quantity. Yet, in the face of that, you posit that your stance on the original premise is still correct (mind you, although I did not post in this thread, I agree with trading for a championship in 2006), and I find that position a little bit illogical. Things have worked out swimmingly for the Sox, in terms of keeping their prospects, and it's hard to argue that the actual events that transpired is not a superior place to be than taking the championship in the original premise.[/quote']They still haven't won the second championship, and since we don't know what the ripple effects of trading them would have been there is nothing with which your "known quantity" can be compared. The only measure that is fair is number of championships. Sorry, but keep trying.

[ORS]

They still haven't won the second championship' date=' and since we don't know what the ripple effects of trading them would have been there is nothing with which your "known quantity" can be compared. The only measure that is fair is number of championships. Sorry, but keep trying.[/quote']

What, it's binary because you say so? How convenient?

 

How about the known quantity of what kind of players Papelbon and Lester turned into? That means nothing?

 

I can understand sticking to your guns, but the facts don't set up well for stubborness here.

[rlchange]

No, we have a good chance of winning this year. And Lester and Papelbon will help us win more in the upcoming years

[a700hitter]

What, it's binary because you say so? How convenient?

 

How about the known quantity of what kind of players Papelbon and Lester turned into? That means nothing?

 

I can understand sticking to your guns, but the facts don't set up well for stubborness here.

Your logic is tortured, and you cannot compare the path taken to the path not taken, because we don't know how that would have turned out. Your comparison is intellectually disingenuous, not because I say so, but just because it is. Quit when you have no chance of winning.

[a700hitter]

No' date=' we have a good chance of winning this year. And Lester and Papelbon will help us win more in the upcoming years[/quote']And if they win this year, it is settled. I've said that since the beginning.

[a700hitter]

ORS has been replying for a while. It must be a bute.

[a700hitter]

Still waiting, and he is still formulating his reply. My interest is piqued.

[ORS]

Your logic is tortured' date=' and you cannot compared the path taken to the path not taken, because we don't know how that would have turned out. Your comparison is intellectually disingenuous, not because I say so, but just because it is. Quit when you have no chance of winning.[/quote']

You're off your rocker.

 

The premise was a championship for two players. The case against the premise was the players would lead to a championship. That happened, and you are arguing against it. We know how that turned out, yet you tried semantics to justify it your original position (doesn't count, Lester only pitched 63 innings), and I called that out. That's where we are now.

 

My logic isn't tortured. I'm pointing out that the simplistic case you make ignores many other factors that are beneficial to the team. I get it, you think fans should only be concerned with championships (your posts about how it the choice was presented to us as fans - ie, we shouldn't be concerned with anything other than the end of season results). I disagree. As you said, championships are rare. That being the case, I want them to be in the best position to win one as often as possible. And since the restrospective part of this thread shows that the proferred championship was actually won a year later when the players were kept, and subsequent to that, both of those players became elite players giving the team a very good chance of being successful in the future, I embrace my admition of being wrong about what I would have done in 2006.

 

Think about the bottom line.

 

Championship in 2006 - Lester/Papelbon gone

 

vs.

 

Championship in 2007 - Lester/Papelbon turn into elite, all-star level players and stay with the team

 

With the knowledge of hindsight......which is what all of the discussion in 2011 has been about....do you still think the guaranteed championship was the right course of action?

 

If so, I feel sorry for you.

[a700hitter]

You're off your rocker.

 

The premise was a championship for two players. The case against the premise was the players would lead to a championship. That happened, and you are arguing against it. We know how that turned out, yet you tried semantics to justify it your original position (doesn't count, Lester only pitched 63 innings), and I called that out. That's where we are now.

 

My logic isn't tortured. I'm pointing out that the simplistic case you make ignores many other factors that are beneficial to the team. I get it, you think fans should only be concerned with championships (your posts about how it the choice was presented to us as fans - ie, we shouldn't be concerned with anything other than the end of season results). I disagree. As you said, championships are rare. That being the case, I want them to be in the best position to win one as often as possible. And since the restrospective part of this thread shows that the proferred championship was actually won a year later when the players were kept, and subsequent to that, both of those players became elite players giving the team a very good chance of being successful in the future, I embrace my admition of being wrong about what I would have done in 2006.

 

Think about the bottom line.

 

Championship in 2006 - Lester/Papelbon gone

 

vs.

 

Championship in 2007 - Lester/Papelbon turn into elite, all-star level players and stay with the team

 

With the knowledge of hindsight......which is what all of the discussion in 2011 has been about....do you still think the guaranteed championship was the right course of action?

 

If so, I feel sorry for you.

You haven't been following. Too bad.

[ORS]

You haven't been following. Too bad.

Wrong.

[Cocos Disciples]

Keep this civil and just about baseball, guys.

[ORS]

Keep this civil and just about baseball' date=' guys.[/quote']

Where have we deviated from the subject?

[a700hitter]

Wrong.

All along I have said that as of now, keeping them was not worth the risk of passing up the guarantee. The important part of that is the "as of now." The 2011 team looks strong and has a very good chance of going all the way. If they do, taking the guarantee would have been wrong. You get so caught up in trying to prove me wrong that you don't even bother to understand my position. :dunno:

[Cocos Disciples]

Where have we deviated from the subject?

 

You haven't deviated, but you're both getting overly aggressive. Just tone it down a touch.

[a700hitter]

You haven't deviated' date=' but you're both getting overly aggressive. Just tone it down a touch.[/quote']Okay

[ORS]

All along I have said that as of now' date=' keeping them was not worth the risk of passing up the guarantee. The important part of that is the "as of now." The 2011 team looks strong and has a very good chance of going all the way. If they do, taking the guarantee would have been wrong. You get so caught up in trying to prove me wrong that you don't even bother to understand my position. :dunno:[/quote']

This is a projection.

 

I'm not caught up in trying to prove you wrong. I'm disagreeing with you.

 

Your first post in 2011 said the justification for not taking the 2006 premise was a failure. I disagree. In other words, I think the current sum of events is more beneficial to the team than taking the premise, regardless of any subsequent championships (if they happen).

 

I understand your position very well. I also think it's wrong.

[a700hitter]

This is a projection.

 

I'm not caught up in trying to prove you wrong. I'm disagreeing with you.

 

Your first post in 2011 said the justification for not taking the 2006 premise was a failure. I disagree. In other words, I think the current sum of events is more beneficial to the team than taking the premise, regardless of any subsequent championships (if they happen).

 

I understand your position very well. I also think it's wrong.

I didn't say that it won't be wrong. In fact, I am very actively hoping that it will be wrong.:lol: But the fact is at this point, it hasn't been established. Those are just the facts. Being in a good position to win doesn't count in a bet. Winning is all that counts.

[Spudboy]

I leave for a few months and nothing has changed it would seem.

 

Oh joy!

[a700hitter]

I leave for a few months and nothing has changed it would seem.

 

Oh joy!

Welcome back! ORS and I just wanted you to feel like you never left.

[Spudboy]

Welcome back! ORS and I just wanted you to feel like you never left.

 

Я дивлюся. Я відчуваю право вдома.

[a700hitter]

Я дивлюся. Я відчуваю право вдома.

That's what I said!