Hansen to Start Later?

[Cocos Disciples]

According to Peter Gammons' Blog, Craig Hansen could be a 5th starter for the Sox if Wells' injury lasts long and DiNardo doesn't perform, which he has today so far.

 

Clip from the Blog:

 

Sean McAdam reported this morning in the Providence Journal that the Red Sox have discussed using Craig Hansen as a starter if David Wells doesn't come back from his knee problems because Jon Lester isn't ready and they cannot find a suitable fifth starter on the market.

The story is right. It's been discussed, as he stated. But that set off the day's talk-radio theory that the Red Sox all along planned to make Hansen a starter once Jonathan Papelbon moved into the role of the closer because they were using Hansen in Double-A in three-inning stints instead of a closer role.

 

Which, of course is silly. "We want Craig to develop all his pitches," said Theo Epstein when Hansen went to Portland. "He knows how to close.I'm not worried about that. But in the major leagues, you can't get by throwing one pitch, as he found out last September against the Orioles. We want him learning to use his pitches, develop his sinker, his slider and his changeup, so that when he gets to the major leagues he can pitch."

 

"I think it's vitally important for a major league reliever to have developed as a starter," says Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti, who went from being a no-hit starter to one of the best left-handed relievers who ever pitched. "You look at these kids who come out of college as relievers and get rushed up … they usually end up struggling. We had that with Dave Aardsma, and when we traded him to the Cubs we had sent him out to start."

 

"Hitters today are better trained to hit a fastball than any time in baseball history," says Rangers manager Buck Showalter. "They grow up hitting tennis balls shot out at them at 100 miles an hour. They hit off pitchers from 45 feet. Twenty years ago, if a reliever came in throwing 95, he could blow people away. Today, most of the hitters can hit any fastball. I think the trend is going to be closers who pound the strike zone and change speeds. And if they're hard throwers, they'd better have two or three good pitches. Papelbon is a good example. He throws up to 98, but he's got a good slider, a great split and he has an obvious feel for pitching. I know he was a closer at my alma mater [Mississippi State], so whoever converted him [Al Nipper] deserves a ton of credit."

 

But Papelbon is still viewed as a future 230-inning starter. The Red Sox privately say that they still view Hansen as a potential second half setup man for 2006, but they haven't ruled out using him as a starter on a short-term basis even though they wonder if his delivery will hold up throwing 100 pitches. Nationals third baseman Ryan Zimmerman and Virginia were shut out by Hansen and St. John's in the regionals at Oregon State last June. "He had three very good pitches," Zimmerman said. "But I can see where his stuff would be much better if he were coming in for an inning or two and he could just blow."

 

Papelbon, Bobby Jenks and Baltimore's Chris Ray have come out of the woodwork since last Labor Day to be premium closers. Jenks was a starter in the Angels organization. Ray was a closer at William & Mary. But when Ray signed, Mike Flanagan insisted that he start for his first two minor league seasons, and when he learned to pitch, he shot through the system.

 

Brad Lidge was a starter his first four pro seasons, and kept breaking down. Then-Astros GM Gerry Hunsicker insisted Billy Wagner start in the Houston organization -- so Wagner started 71 games, then got to the Astros' bullpen. Derek Turnbow started four of his first five professional seasons. Jason Isringhausen, Tom Gordon, Eric Gagne, Bob Wickman, Joe Nathan… Hey, Ryan Dempster is second in the NL in saves since the 2005, and he didn't move from starter to closer until last year. And that's before we get to Righetti, Rich Gossage, Dennis Eckersley, Lee Smith …

 

Then look at Ryan Wagner, who got to the big leagues weeks after being drafted. Chad Cordero and Huston Street did go from college closer to major league closers, but each had starting experience before signing.

 

"Development is a complicated business, one that takes time," says Epstein. "That applies to relievers as well as any position."

[jsinger121]

Don't think this will happen as it will take awhile to stretch Hansen out as a starter

[ksushi]

If DiNardo can pitch like he did today it might not be needed. I would like to see Hansen worked as a starter in AAA to get to use all his pitches.

[Dana Kiecker]

Please dont tell me you are putting your 5th starter bread on Lenny..

 

Im all for him but he is what he is, a long relief guy who is wild. If the sox score 9 or 10 runs every game, than yah we are all set. If Theo isnt thinking Zito or Mulder at the deadline then Im a monkeys uncle..

[ORS]

Please dont tell me you are putting your 5th starter bread on Lenny..

 

Im all for him but he is what he is, a long relief guy who is wild. If the sox score 9 or 10 runs every game, than yah we are all set. If Theo isnt thinking Zito or Mulder at the deadline then Im a monkeys uncle..

The A's are going to expect more than Theo will be willing to pay for a half season rental. Mulder won't be available since the Cards will be in a pennant race. Enjoy the bananas.

[Dana Kiecker]

I think he gets Zito at the deadline... whatever the cost..

 

As for the prediction of the Cards " being there" I doubt it.

 

Then again its just a message board right ? A place where you can post opinions and such?

 

Am I wrong?

 

Pass the monkey diaper.

[ksushi]

Why? Explain to me the logic behind acquiring Zito? Giving up a guy who will be a quality left handed starter as soon as a year from now, for a half of a year of Barry Zito? Barry Zito hasn't been a good pitcher in awhile. I personally am not willing to give up a Hansen or a Lester for Zito. Not worth it.

 

I would put your money on the Sox being high bidders for Mark Mulders services next offseason.

[Dana Kiecker]

"Thats not what I said"

[ORS]

I think he gets Zito at the deadline... whatever the cost..

 

As for the prediction of the Cards " being there" I doubt it.

 

Then again its just a message board right ? A place where you can post opinions and such?

 

Am I wrong?

 

Pass the monkey diaper.

I just don't see the FO giving up what Beane will want for Zito. He's 4 years removed from his Cy Young* season, and has become, IMO, one of the more overrated pitchers in the game. Don't get me wrong, he's good for the regular season, but his performance against the team that matters most (NYY) is quite pedestrian, 2-7 4.64 ERA in 13 starts.

 

Barring injury, the Cards certainly look like they'll be in it. After 30+ games they are only a game behind the "Playing way over their heads" Cincinnati Reds. Houston is in the mix too. I think the central will come down to the 'Stros and Red Birds (Cincy fades - lack of pitching). Both will make the post-season IMO because I don't see a WC team coming out of the NL East or West. Mulder will finish the year in St. Louis.

 

It sure is a message board. You opined, and I retorted with a contrary opinion. Seems as if I'm within the rules.

 

Monkey diaper? Gotta admit, the reference is foreign to me. Care to explain?

 

*Pedro should have won the Cy that year.

[TheRivernator]

Here is the deal. Beane got porked when he watched Tejada and Giambi walk with only draft pick compensation. He learned his lesson and dealt away 2/3 of the holy trinity before they became FA's, and the Mulder trade was a fuggin steal for what the cards had to give up. I expect Beane to work his magic and make Zito available. BUT, you have to look at the market for this to work. First off, Zito and Mulder are FAs after the yr, and I dunno about you guys but I like Mulder better. Also, the Cards are expected to make a run at trading for Buerhle, so they might be okay with letting Mulder fly.

 

Now, if you deal for Zito, you have to give up a lot, why not just wait for the FA process and try to scoop up Mulder or Zito for free? Because you can bet your ass that the yankees will be bidding for one of them and will likely shorten the field by one half. So how do you beat them to it? By dealing for them. The sox have many prospects in the minors whose paths are blocked as well as 3-4 big league arms ready in the minors or recently called up. You also have to figure that Beane is going to have a minimal amount of suitors. I think the Mets are happy with their rotation. The Yankees wont be looking to deal. The Cards wont need another and if Rocket goes to Houston, he wont be needed there either. The A's wont deal in division and no team from the AL Central has the goods or the need for Zito. So, I think it leaves the Dodgers and the Sox going for his services, but there are a few confounding factors. One, does Wells return, and if he does which wells shows up? Two, is LA in it by the trade deadline. Three, is Oakland in the race by the deadline, thereby making the point moot.

 

I see a serious move coming on the horizon and I seriously think that if the sox rotation continues as is, assuming Beckett stays around a 4+ era pitcher, they will look to strengthen the rotation. They have Ellsbury and Moss in the minors whose paths are blocked. Stern would make a good trade chip. Edgar Martinez is another and either Lester or Hansen would likely be asked to be included. I could see a 3 player package going to oakland for Zito.

 

One caveat though, Barry Zito gets ass-raped by the yankees. 0-2 era over 12 in his last 3 starts vs the Yankees.

[jsinger121]

Ellsbury is going nowhere and the Sox will not part with either Lester or Hansen for Zito who can be had in the offseason. And Moss is falling fast is a prospect so I would doubt the A's would want him. The Sox do not need to part with the system for an overrated pitcher such as Barry Zito.

[ORS]

Here is the deal. Beane got porked when he watched Tejada and Giambi walk with only draft pick compensation. He learned his lesson and dealt away 2/3 of the holy trinity before they became FA's, and the Mulder trade was a fuggin steal for what the cards had to give up. I expect Beane to work his magic and make Zito available. BUT, you have to look at the market for this to work. First off, Zito and Mulder are FAs after the yr, and I dunno about you guys but I like Mulder better. Also, the Cards are expected to make a run at trading for Buerhle, so they might be okay with letting Mulder fly.

 

Now, if you deal for Zito, you have to give up a lot, why not just wait for the FA process and try to scoop up Mulder or Zito for free? Because you can bet your ass that the yankees will be bidding for one of them and will likely shorten the field by one half. So how do you beat them to it? By dealing for them. The sox have many prospects in the minors whose paths are blocked as well as 3-4 big league arms ready in the minors or recently called up. You also have to figure that Beane is going to have a minimal amount of suitors. I think the Mets are happy with their rotation. The Yankees wont be looking to deal. The Cards wont need another and if Rocket goes to Houston, he wont be needed there either. The A's wont deal in division and no team from the AL Central has the goods or the need for Zito. So, I think it leaves the Dodgers and the Sox going for his services, but there are a few confounding factors. One, does Wells return, and if he does which wells shows up? Two, is LA in it by the trade deadline. Three, is Oakland in the race by the deadline, thereby making the point moot.

 

I see a serious move coming on the horizon and I seriously think that if the sox rotation continues as is, assuming Beckett stays around a 4+ era pitcher, they will look to strengthen the rotation. They have Ellsbury and Moss in the minors whose paths are blocked. Stern would make a good trade chip. Edgar Martinez is another and either Lester or Hansen would likely be asked to be included. I could see a 3 player package going to oakland for Zito.

 

One caveat though, Barry Zito gets ass-raped by the yankees. 0-2 era over 12 in his last 3 starts vs the Yankees.

But, why give up prospects for Zito, in order to beat the Yankees, when he's likely to hit the FA market a mere 3 months later? That's too heavy a price IMO. And, I think Zito is going to go to market. Whether you or I think he's overrated or not, he's still a big name with a decent resume. Somebody will go big and long to make a splash with him.

 

If anyone trades for him at this point, I think it's going to be the Mets. They just lost Zambrano for the year, and their roster is one of the most Win-Now rosters in the league.

[TheRivernator]

Ellsbury is going nowhere and the Sox will not part with either Lester or Hansen for Zito who can be had in the offseason. And Moss is falling fast is a prospect so I would doubt the A's would want him. The Sox do not need to part with the system for an overrated pitcher such as Barry Zito.

 

I think it all depends on your disposition. Remember, the sox are going into a BRUTAL stretch over the next month or so. Only 2 breathers series between now and June 18th, and one of those breather series will be against the DRays with all of their personell back. The only other brutal stretch is august into the beginning of september. You can bet that if the sox start to fall behind a little in the standings that they'll make a run at him. You also have to figure that Zito is only going to be 28 yrs old in a week or so and he is proven. I'll tell you what, Boston is the place that makes the most sense because of their farm system and their likelihood of need. I am not saying that the sox rotation is bad currently, just that it lacks depth and if wells is done, then there is a gaping hole at the 5 position. Plus Clement is not good and Beckett has disappointed. Zito would be a proven AL arm who could win 20 games if given run support....

[TheRivernator]

But, why give up prospects for Zito, in order to beat the Yankees, when he's likely to hit the FA market a mere 3 months later? That's too heavy a price IMO. And, I think Zito is going to go to market. Whether you or I think he's overrated or not, he's still a big name with a decent resume. Somebody will go big and long to make a splash with him.

 

If anyone trades for him at this point, I think it's going to be the Mets. They just lost Zambrano for the year, and their roster is one of the most Win-Now rosters in the league.

 

I hear ya on the mets roster, but zambrano was about to be demoted anyway. The mets have Pedro, Glavine, Trachsel, Heilman and Bannister in a pretty good rotation AND, the mets have only one good prospect, Lastings Milledge whom they refuse to deal. I dont see the fit there even though Zito and Peterson are good buds....

[jsinger121]

Zito also benefits greatly from pitching in the spacious Oakland Coliseum. He is a flyball pitcher that won't have that benefit coming to fenway park. And Beckett has not disappionted....What 2 starts and now he is a disappointment. Its too early to deem him a disappointment or that the sox need to part with their farm system for a pitcher who is not as good as he is hyped out to be.

[TheRivernator]

as for why give up the prospects now, well, if Zito hits the market, he'll be hard to retain. BUT, if you deal for him and offer him a good deal at the trade, he'd likely sign, most guys do. If he hits the market, I'd expect a lot of teams to go after him. If Boston snatched him early and offered him a good deal, I think they can beat everyone to the punch...

[TheRivernator]

Zito also benefits greatly from pitching in the spacious Oakland Coliseum. He is a flyball pitcher that won't have that benefit coming to fenway park. And Beckett has not disappionted....What 2 starts and now he is a disappointment. Its too early to deem him a disappointment or that the sox need to part with their farm system for a pitcher who is not as good as he is hyped out to be.

 

Beckett and RJ have disappointed so far. Let's not deny it. ERAs close to or slightly over 5 are not what we expected out of these guys...

[ORS]

I hear ya on the mets roster, but zambrano was about to be demoted anyway. The mets have Pedro, Glavine, Trachsel, Heilman and Bannister in a pretty good rotation AND, the mets have only one good prospect, Lastings Milledge whom they refuse to deal. I dont see the fit there even though Zito and Peterson are good buds....

Heilman has been very good for them as a MRP. How does moving him to the rotation change the dynamic in the 'pen bridging to Wagner. More innings for Duaner Sanchez? Ok, but he's young and they have to worry about his workload.

 

I know Minaya loves Milledge, as he should. Beane loves good young pitchers, so I'd think Pelfry + filler could get the deal done.

[ORS]

as for why give up the prospects now, well, if Zito hits the market, he'll be hard to retain. BUT, if you deal for him and offer him a good deal at the trade, he'd likely sign, most guys do. If he hits the market, I'd expect a lot of teams to go after him. If Boston snatched him early and offered him a good deal, I think they can beat everyone to the punch...

I don't think Zito passes up a chance to hit the free market. Too much to lose.

[TheRivernator]

Heilman has been very good for them as a MRP. How does moving him to the rotation change the dynamic in the 'pen bridging to Wagner. More innings for Duaner Sanchez? Ok, but he's young and they have to worry about his workload.

 

I know Minaya loves Milledge, as he should. Beane loves good young pitchers, so I'd think Pelfry + filler could get the deal done.

 

I still dont see it happening in Met land. Beane will want multiple prospects in return and the mets have two (I forgot about Pelfrey but most minor league experts on XM think he was a reach in the draft and is overrated). Beane has been a master at getting what he wants. Even if he doesnt pry Hansen or Lester away, the sox still have enough to get it done. Edgar, Ellsbury, MDC would be enough IMHO to solidify the pen and set up the A's to move Kotsay, who could be dealt for more inor leaguers.....

[ksushi]

Trading for a Zito and giving up a Hansen or a Lester makes no sense. The FO is building for the future and I don't see them making a move to get Zito as some sort of attempt to get the inside track on signing him in order to thwart the Yankees. The Sox cleared some payroll this offseason, and speculation has pointed towards all the pitchers on the market next off season. I'll bet they chase down a Mulder or Zito next offseason.

 

And btw, Beckett isn't going to a continue to be a 4+ era guy. Thanks for throwing that in there though. The book on him is he always gives a string of excellent starts, followed by a few bad ones. Its what he does. He loses command of his fastball for a little while and then gets it back and loses it etc. etc.

[TheRivernator]

And btw, Beckett isn't going to a continue to be a 4+ era guy. Thanks for throwing that in there though.

 

you cannot be sure of that, just like I cannot be sure that RJ will return to form. Remember, this is a new venture for Beckett. You guys said the same thing about Clement and we said the same thing about Pavano. Proven winners in the NL are crapshoots in the AL. I still think he'll bounce back, but right now, nothing is certain...

[CrespoBlows]

Here is the deal. Beane got porked when he watched Tejada and Giambi walk with only draft pick compensation. He learned his lesson and dealt away 2/3 of the holy trinity before they became FA's, and the Mulder trade was a fuggin steal for what the cards had to give up. I expect Beane to work his magic and make Zito available. BUT, you have to look at the market for this to work. First off, Zito and Mulder are FAs after the yr, and I dunno about you guys but I like Mulder better. Also, the Cards are expected to make a run at trading for Buerhle, so they might be okay with letting Mulder fly.

 

Yeah, that's not going to happen. The White Sox wouldn't dream of moving Buerhle. Who would they even dangle to make the White Sox think about it?

 

Now, if you deal for Zito, you have to give up a lot, why not just wait for the FA process and try to scoop up Mulder or Zito for free? Because you can bet your ass that the yankees will be bidding for one of them and will likely shorten the field by one half. So how do you beat them to it? By dealing for them. The sox have many prospects in the minors whose paths are blocked as well as 3-4 big league arms ready in the minors or recently called up. You also have to figure that Beane is going to have a minimal amount of suitors. I think the Mets are happy with their rotation. The Yankees wont be looking to deal. The Cards wont need another and if Rocket goes to Houston, he wont be needed there either. The A's wont deal in division and no team from the AL Central has the goods or the need for Zito. So, I think it leaves the Dodgers and the Sox going for his services, but there are a few confounding factors. One, does Wells return, and if he does which wells shows up? Two, is LA in it by the trade deadline. Three, is Oakland in the race by the deadline, thereby making the point moot. I see a serious move coming on the horizon and I seriously think that if the sox rotation continues as is, assuming Beckett stays around a 4+ era pitcher, they will look to strengthen the rotation. They have Ellsbury and Moss in the minors whose paths are blocked. Stern would make a good trade chip. Edgar Martinez is another and either Lester or Hansen would likely be asked to be included. I could see a 3 player package going to oakland for Zito.

 

Full of contradictions in your point here.

 

Because you can bet your ass that the yankees will be bidding for one of them and will likely shorten the field by one half.

 

The Yankees wont be looking to deal.

 

Which one is it? Right now, the Yankees can't be satisfied with their rotation. Randy Johnson looks old, and over the hill. His stuff can't get any better. He's a 42 year old pitcher, with no knees, with a declining fastball/slider combo. Jaret Wright is done, he had one good year in 2004, and cashed in on it. Wang's been awfully lucky to be at his current ERA. His 18/14 K/BB ratio isn't going to get it done in the AL. Same thing with Chacon, his WHIP is at 1.44, and he's due for a serious rise in his ERA.

 

Beckett won't be stay the same. He's just hit a rough stretch, after starting on fire. Beckett is probaby something in between. (3.50 ERA) His career numbers indicate that he's clearly a better pitcher than what he is showing right now. Plus he's only 25, and only going to get better. As for the panic mood, the Red Sox staff is terrible, Schilling, Wakefield, Beckett, and Clement have all pitched well. Clement is being weighed down be one bad start, and Beckett as previously mentioned should rebound.

 

Even if the Red Sox look to improve the rotation, it would only a fifth starter kind of player, ala Chacon. Because, there is no way in hell, the Red Sox part with three Top 5 prospects for a half season rental.

[ksushi]

you cannot be sure of that, just like I cannot be sure that RJ will return to form. Remember, this is a new venture for Beckett. You guys said the same thing about Clement and we said the same thing about Pavano. Proven winners in the NL are crapshoots in the AL. I still think he'll bounce back, but right now, nothing is certain...

 

 

First off, Beckett wasn't exactly a proven winner in the NL. He is a guy who has flat out dominant stuff. He can shut down a lineup and throw zero's frame after frame. He's done this already in the AL. When he comes with it watch out.

 

Second, RJ is 45 Beckett is 25. There is a distinct difference. The doubt with RJ is whether or not he still has it in the tank. On SC someone pointed out he has been throwing out of a lower arm slot that usual. That is oh so bad. I personally think he will get back on top of the ball and return to form, but eh.

 

Lastly, Clement and Beckett are two totally different animals here. Beckett will not be a career 4 ERA guy in the AL. I am sure of that.

 

edit, before you jump on me for calling RJ 45, I did that because a 5 on the end nicely illustrated the age difference and made me happy.

[ORS]

I still dont see it happening in Met land. Beane will want multiple prospects in return and the mets have two (I forgot about Pelfrey but most minor league experts on XM think he was a reach in the draft and is overrated). Beane has been a master at getting what he wants. Even if he doesnt pry Hansen or Lester away, the sox still have enough to get it done. Edgar, Ellsbury, MDC would be enough IMHO to solidify the pen and set up the A's to move Kotsay, who could be dealt for more inor leaguers.....

Pelfrey has already been called up to AA after tearing up A+ for a month (1.64 ERA, 27 K in 22 IP. Two starts, one very good (5.2 IP, 8 K, 2 BB, 0 R), one not so good (4 IP, 3 K, 1 BB, 5 R). I'm pretty sure that the A's are deeper in position prospects right now, so Pelfrey could be appealing.

[TheRivernator]

Pelfrey has already been called up to AA after tearing up A+ for a month (1.64 ERA, 27 K in 22 IP. Two starts, one very good (5.2 IP, 8 K, 2 BB, 0 R), one not so good (4 IP, 3 K, 1 BB, 5 R). I'm pretty sure that the A's are deeper in position prospects right now, so Pelfrey could be appealing.

 

I know they have Barton as a C/1b/LF and they have Hererra in the OF, but not sure of others. I know that their pitching prospects consist of Meyer and not much else, so maybe they go for the big arms...

[ksushi]

I personally just don't see Zito being in the cards in this situation. Considering what Beane is going to ask for. Giving up Hansen is definetly way out of the question. Lester I believe won't go anywhere. If a Buehlre or someone of that caliber were to hit the market, maybe Lester would be dealable. I think probably not though. I think the Red Sox will be huge players for Mulder this offseason. I think that is the only out of the organization pitching moves they will be making in the near future.

[TheRivernator]

I personally just don't see Zito being in the cards in this situation. Considering what Beane is going to ask for. Giving up Hansen is definetly way out of the question. Lester I believe won't go anywhere. If a Buehlre or someone of that caliber were to hit the market, maybe Lester would be dealable. I think probably not though. I think the Red Sox will be huge players for Mulder this offseason. I think that is the only out of the organization pitching moves they will be making in the near future.

 

See I think the Yankees will be going for Mulder, too. Should lead to some good offseason discussion...

[ORS]

See I think the Yankees will be going for Mulder, too. Should lead to some good offseason discussion...

I see them trying to woo Andy home.

[jsinger121]

I know they have Barton as a C/1b/LF and they have Hererra in the OF, but not sure of others. I know that their pitching prospects consist of Meyer and not much else, so maybe they go for the big arms...

 

Meyer has fallen as a prospect as BA has him at 21 on the A's list.....They don't have alot in their farm system in terms of pitching as its in A ball. Since graduating alot of their kids the system has taken a big hit in terms of talent.