Marlins Fire Sale Continues with Willis?

[CrespoBlows]

Beckett came with baggage (the Lowell salary dump) and question marks (injury, home/road splits), and it took 2 top-50 BA prospects (something the Yankees don't have) to get him here. There is no baggage to be dumped, the Marlins payroll is ~$15M now, and there are relatively no questions about D-Train, so they will be dealing from a position of extreme strength. That is what you fail to realize, and it's clearly obvious, so I'd refrain from tossing the idiot name around since it seems to apply to you more than anyone.

 

 

 

What a complete load of fantastical horseshit.

 

We need to realize what goes into trades? Funny, I thought is exactly what we did by breaking down the factors of the Beckett trade, but I guess that isn't as enlightened as your trip down fantasy lane.......Maybe this guy really likes this, you never know?

 

Dontrelle wants to go to NY? Tough titties. Pre-FA trades involve getting the best value for the team possible. The only time requested destinations happen is when the player has 10-5 rights or a NTC. It doesn't matter where Dontrelle wants to pitch. Those are the facts. To include them as a factor just shows how completely off base you are.

 

Maybe, just maybe, the Marlins HATE Lester? You couldn't be more wrong. He was the first pitcher they asked for in the Beckett trade. But, don't let something silly like what's reported get in the way on your trip to hypothetical land.

 

Please, respond again. I love how you keep inching your way toward complete irrelevance on this board.

 

 

I think Best Poster for ORS is an understatement.

[26 to 6]

Despite the length of your post, it's still makes little sense.

 

You assume, that the Marlins baseball people would think logically. To discredit the Red Sox prospects on the notion that we don't know what the Marlins prefer is a really grasping at straws. It's clever, but extremely flawed. You'd hope the Marlins scouts would say,

 

"Hmm, that Lester guy has great control, throws 95 mph, has two good secondary pitches, GB/FB ratio is over 1, and is left-handed. But since I'm in denial about that thing called the Yankee farm system, I'll take Clippard, who was an average fastball, and OK secondary pitches."

 

The facts are simple, just about every baseball scout/sabermetric has the Red Sox farm system ranging from 8-15. They obviously think that the Red Sox could get a deal done. It's foolish to disregard one's common sense. Which is apparently obvious, of what you're trying to do.

I wasnt saying specifically that Clippard was better than Lester, I was just throwing hypotheticals out there.

 

Maybe, just maybe, the Marlins HATE Lester? You couldn't be more wrong. He was the first pitcher they asked for in the Beckett trade. But, don't let something silly like what's reported get in the way on your trip to hypothetical land.

Again, I was just throwing hypotheticals out there. My entire post was based on hypothetical circumstances. I'm not claiming that the Marlins like Clippard better than Lester or anything. All i'm saying is that we are not in their heads or in contact with there scouts. We dont know every single player that they hold in high regard.

 

And yes, about the Willis wanting to pitch in NY thing not mattering. You are correct. However you are also extremely textbook. Maybe the General Manager and Dontrelle Willis have a good relationship and he would like to help out Dontrelle and honor his wishes as to where he wants to play. Again, hypothetical, but makes sense. People do make decisions based on things like that.

[ORS]

 

I think Best Poster for ORS is an understatement.

Thanks for the vote of confidence.

[26 to 6]

 

I think Best Poster for ORS is an understatement.

I dont. I think he's a stat geek who doesnt realize that in baseball, emotion and personalization far outweigh numerical statistics. I would be interested in knowing the extent to which he played baseball too, because if he played at any competitive level he would realize that.

[jsinger121]

I dont. I think he's a stat geek who doesnt realize that in baseball, emotion and personalization far outweigh numerical statistics. I would be interested in knowing the extent to which he played baseball too, because if he played at any competitive level he would realize that.

 

And you need to take your yankee glasses off and think that you can get Willis without parting with both Hughes and Duncan as a start.

[26 to 6]

And you need to take your yankee glasses off and think that you can get Willis without parting with both Hughes and Duncan as a start.

I', telling you, it wouldnt take both of those guys. Most likely one would have to be involved, but not both.

[jsinger121]

The Red Sox parted with 2 top 50 BA prospects for Beckett who never even won 20 games in a season and also had to take on Lowells contract. It will cost at least 2 top prospects to get Willis from the Marlins.

[ORS]

I dont. I think he's a stat geek who doesnt realize that in baseball, emotion and personalization far outweigh numerical statistics. I would be interested in knowing the extent to which he played baseball too, because if he played at any competitive level he would realize that.

This line of thinking never dies, does it? Excuse me for being intelligent enough to digest the relevance of modern statistics. And, you couldn't be more wrong. Baseball at the MLB level is, first and foremost, a business. And, statistics is the mathematics of business. That is life. Accept it.

 

I played ball, and I played very well. The highest level I played was u/ 15 in Fairfax, VA. But, I didn't quit because I wasn't any good, in fact I was one of the best in every league I played. Proof? The best player I ever faced was in u/15 ball, a lefty named Bill Pulsipher. I went 2/3 with a double in the one game he pitched against our team. We both made and started on the AS-Team. I was better than every kid who played on my HS baseball team. Why didn't I play? My dad split when I was 14 and I got pissed at the world. I got drunk for the first time that year and was doing drugs by the end of it. In other words, I got a little sidetracked.

[26 to 6]

The Red Sox parted with 2 top 50 BA prospects for Beckett who never even won 20 games in a season and also had to take on Lowells contract. It will cost at least 2 top prospects to get Willis from the Marlins.

It cost you TWO top prospects to get Beckett, AND Lowell, AND Mota. Lowell and Mota are, at the top of their game, two VERY VERY good players. Dont even use the arguement about them being throw-ins because of health uncertainty. If that were the case then that means that they could have basically been had for nothing. We know that is not the case.

[ORS]

It cost you TWO top prospects to get Beckett, AND Lowell, AND Mota. Lowell and Mota are, at the top of their game, two VERY VERY good players. Dont even use the arguement about them being throw-ins because of health uncertainty. If that were the case then that means that they could have basically been had for nothing. We know that is not the case.

Please. Lowell and Mota were coming off career worst years. They were baggage in that trade and everyone knows it, even intelligent Yankee fans.

[26 to 6]

This line of thinking never dies, does it? Excuse me for being intelligent enough to digest the relevance of modern statistics. And, you couldn't be more wrong. Baseball at the MLB level is, first and foremost, a business. And, statistics is the mathematics of business. That is life. Accept it.

 

I played ball, and I played very well. The highest level I played was u/ 15 in Fairfax, VA. But, I didn't quit because I wasn't any good, in fact I was one of the best in every league I played. Proof? The best player I ever faced was in u/15 ball, a lefty named Bill Pulsipher. I went 2/3 with a double in the one game he pitched against our team. We both made and started on the AS-Team. I was better than every kid who played on my HS baseball team. Why didn't I play? My dad split when I was 14 and I got pissed at the world. I got drunk for the first time that year and was doing drugs by the end of it. In other words, I got a little sidetracked.

Well its good to know that you have played. What I dont understand then is why you dont understand what baseball is all about. Yes, in the front office sky boxes, baseball is business. But at 7 a.m. in the sweltering Arizona and Florida heat in the middle of February, or in the blistering cold surroudned by snowflakes in early April, or the 100 degree weather of July, and especially the cold of October, Baseball is about love and emotion. Managers (well, not all managers) look at the numbers before throwing a pinch hitter in there, or bringing in a specific player from the bullpen. They can look over at the player and have a good feeling that the player will come through. I take statistics into consideration, but not to the degree that you guys do. I blame the whole philosphy that your team work by. The whole BS "moneyball" theory.

[CrespoBlows]

It cost you TWO top prospects to get Beckett, AND Lowell, AND Mota. Lowell and Mota are, at the top of their game, two VERY VERY good players. Dont even use the arguement about them being throw-ins because of health uncertainty. If that were the case then that means that they could have basically been had for nothing. We know that is not the case.

 

You got to be s***ing me.

 

The Marlins would have accepted a broken condom for Lowell if someone took his salary. You remember that whole A.J. Burnett trade? Wasn't the hangup, Mike Lowell? The Marlins wanted NOTHING to do with a 33 year old, who had just hit .238. Oh, and as I recall, you didn't find Lowell do be a great pickup either.

 

I cant wait until the day next year where beckett is on the DL, Lowell is in an 0-22 slump, and Renteria is making errors left and right (much like last year) and you guys are saying "man, we should have never made this trade, now we're stuck with Renteria who cant catch the ball, Beckett who cant stay healthy, and Lowell who cant hit. I wish we still had Hanley"

 

Obvious contridiction there. Just because you can't find any reason to discredit something, doesn't mean you have to talk out of your ass.

[26 to 6]

Please. Lowell and Mota were coming off career worst years. They were baggage in that trade and everyone knows it, even intelligent Yankee fans.

Are you saying that they could have been had for absolutely nothing. Just simply their contract?

 

Mark Prior was coming off of a horrible year. However I remember Miguel Tejada's name being thrown around in Mark Prior discussions. Having a bad year doesnt mean that your value has disappeared.

[CrespoBlows]

I blame the whole philosphy that your team work by. The whole BS "moneyball" theory.

 

What a s***** theory that is.

 

Three playoff apperances.

 

One World Series Title.

[jsinger121]

It cost you TWO top prospects to get Beckett, AND Lowell, AND Mota. Lowell and Mota are, at the top of their game, two VERY VERY good players. Dont even use the arguement about them being throw-ins because of health uncertainty. If that were the case then that means that they could have basically been had for nothing. We know that is not the case.

 

Lowell had 18 million remaining on his deal coming off a horrible. The Marlins wanted badly to dump him. Mota was also a throw in as well as he wasn't very good last year as he has an injury history. I really had thought you were a knowledgable baseball person even if you are a Yankee fan but I guess not.

[26 to 6]

Are you saying that they could have been had for absolutely nothing. Just simply their contract?

 

Mark Prior was coming off of a horrible year. However I remember Miguel Tejada's name being thrown around in Mark Prior discussions. Having a bad year doesnt mean that your value has disappeared.

Oh, and as I recall, you didn't find Lowell do be a great pickup either.

You are right. And I still dont think it was a very good pickup. And I still stand by my post that you quoted. Fact of the matter is that He won a gold glove and the price that was paid for Beckett, Lowell, and Mota wouldnt have been the same if it were just for Beckett.

[CrespoBlows]

Are you saying that they could have been had for absolutely nothing. Just simply their contract?

 

Yeah, that's what fire sale tends to mean. Especially, if you're a 33 year old infielder with no place on a young team, who by the way, is making $9 million.

 

Mark Prior was coming off of a horrible year. However I remember Miguel Tejada's name being thrown around in Mark Prior discussions. Having a bad year doesnt mean that your value has disappeared.

 

A 3.60 ERA is a bad year? Even if he had a bad year it would still be a bad analogy. Mark Prior is a 25 year old power pitcher. Mike Lowell is 33 years old with a big salary. Huge difference.

[KeepTheFaith1229]

the price that was paid for Beckett, Lowell, and Mota wouldnt have been the same if it were just for Beckett.

 

Actually there would have been no deal if Lowell hadn't been included.

[26 to 6]

Lowell had 18 million remaining on his deal coming off a horrible. The Marlins wanted badly to dump him. Mota was also a throw in as well as he wasn't very good last year as he has an injury history. I really had thought you were a knowledgable baseball person even if you are a Yankee fan but I guess not.

So are you saying that the Yankees could have walked up to the Marlins and said "Hey, give us Lowell and Mote for absolutely nothing and we'll call it a fair trade."

 

I dont think so.

 

What a s***** theory that is.

 

Three playoff apperances.

 

One World Series Title.

As I recall we've been in the playoffs 11 straight seasons. In that time we've won 4 World Championships, and two additional pennants. We dont use that system.

[26 to 6]

Yeah, that's what fire sale tends to mean. Especially, if you're a 33 year old infielder with no place on a young team, who by the way, is making $9 million.

Damn

we got gyped then. We could have easily gotten Ron Villone for nothing than. Why did we give up Ben Julianel? And why on earth did the briefly discussed Lo Duca deal fall through? And the even better question, if all these guys that were gotten rid of during the fire sale could have just been gotten for nothing, why the hell did the Mets trade away all that talent for Delgado and Lo Duca?? Those sneaky Marlins.

[ORS]

Well its good to know that you have played. What I dont understand then is why you dont understand what baseball is all about. Yes, in the front office sky boxes, baseball is business. But at 7 a.m. in the sweltering Arizona and Florida heat in the middle of February, or in the blistering cold surroudned by snowflakes in early April, or the 100 degree weather of July, and especially the cold of October, Baseball is about love and emotion. Managers (well, not all managers) look at the numbers before throwing a pinch hitter in there, or bringing in a specific player from the bullpen. They can look over at the player and have a good feeling that the player will come through. I take statistics into consideration, but not to the degree that you guys do. I blame the whole philosphy that your team work by. The whole BS "moneyball" theory.

Love and emotion? Jesus, write a poem if that's how you feel about it.

 

Although, where do I claim it is an emotionless game? I love the passion of baseball, but that passion doesn't belong in the FO. You think baseball teams should be run from the heart, but they aren't. They are run from the head, and when comparing players or analyzing/proposing trades I don't see where emotion enters the discussion. Feeling someone is better than someone else despite statistical evidence contrary to that opinion just won't cut it.

[CrespoBlows]

So are you saying that the Yankees could have walked up to the Marlins and said "Hey, give us Lowell and Mote for absolutely nothing and we'll call it a fair trade."

 

I dont think so.

 

Actually it was more like, "Hey, if you take Lowell, and Mota, we'll throw in Josh Beckett!"

 

 

As I recall we've been in the playoffs 11 straight seasons. In that time we've won 4 World Championships, and two additional pennants. We dont use that system.

 

 

A $200 million dollar payroll helps. Oh, and remember Gene Michael? He was the first to emphasize OBP into the Yankee organization.

[ORS]

As I recall we've been in the playoffs 11 straight seasons. In that time we've won 4 World Championships, and two additional pennants. We dont use that system.

You don't have to. Moneyball isn't a specific statistical philosophy. It is about finding underappreciated value. However, when a team is willing to spend $80M more than the next highest team, they don't need to look for value.

[jsinger121]

Ben Julianel is a nobody and thats why you got villone. He isnt anything special and those guys are used to get average pitchers like villone.

[26 to 6]

You don't have to. Moneyball isn't a specific statistical philosophy. It is about finding underappreciated value. However, when a team is willing to spend $80M more than the next highest team, they don't need to look for value.

Oh god. Here we go again with the Yankees spending arguement. Stop bitching about us having the highest payroll when you guys have the SECOND highest. I dont care if we spend $1 Billion more than you. Fact of the matter is that you guys are spending more than 28 other teams. Stop being hypocrites.

 

A $200 million dollar payroll helps. Oh, and remember Gene Michael? He was the first to emphasize OBP into the Yankee organization.

Please, Stick's philosophy was not nearly as in depth as that of the Moneyball philosophy. Moneyball is pussy baseball. A practice whervalueable. Dont give e sacrifice bunts are a no-no and stealing is frowned upon. "27 outs. All of them any of them away."

[26 to 6]

Ben Julianel is a nobody and thats why you got villone. He isnt anything special and those guys are used to get average pitchers like villone.

But hey, if fire sale means we can walk up and take what we want then why give anything away?

[CrespoBlows]

Damn

we got gyped then. We could have easily gotten Ron Villone for nothing than. Why did we give up Ben Julianel? And why on earth did the briefly discussed Lo Duca deal fall through? And the even better question, if all these guys that were gotten rid of during the fire sale could have just been gotten for nothing, why the hell did the Mets trade away all that talent for Delgado and Lo Duca?? Those sneaky Marlins.

 

Wow, you're an idiot. I can't believe how stupid someone can be.

 

Ben Julianel? You mean that 29 year old AAA pitcher? Sounds like nothing to me.

 

As for the Delgado, and Lo Duca references. WHAT THE HELL! Check what you're typing. Just do that, and you'll sound less of an idiot.

 

Anyway, let's do this a simply as possible: PLEASE READ CAREFULLY!

 

Delgado- .301/.399/.582/.981 = All Star 1B. Which in turn means, HE HAS VALUE.

 

Lowell- .236/.298/.360/.658 = Extreme decline. Which means, VALUE = ZERO

 

So, as you can see, the Marlins would probably want to be kicked in the balls then be stuck with Lowell's $9 million salary. Which on their present day payroll would account for a little bit more than 33%.

[jsinger121]

Because for certain players the price is higher. They didn't have to trade Beckett. They wanted Lowell gone so badly that hey we will trade Beckett if some team takes Lowell and also give up some pretty high prospects.

[KeepTheFaith1229]

Ben Julianel is a nobody and thats why you got villone. He isnt anything special and those guys are used to get average pitchers like villone.

 

I have a hunch that's what he was getting at.

 

 

Anyway about the emotion thing, what makes Billy Beane a good GM is him not letting matters get personal.

[26 to 6]

Wow, you're an idiot. I can't believe how stupid someone can be.

 

Ben Julianel? You mean that 29 year old AAA pitcher? Sounds like nothing to me.

 

As for the Delgado, and Lo Duca references. WHAT THE HELL! Check what you're typing. Just do that, and you'll sound less of an idiot.

 

Anyway, let's do this a simply as possible: PLEASE READ CAREFULLY!

 

Delgado- .301/.399/.582/.981 = All Star 1B. Which in turn means, HE HAS VALUE.

 

Lowell- .236/.298/.360/.658 = Extreme decline. Which means, VALUE = ZERO

 

So, as you can see, the Marlins would probably want to be kicked in the balls then be stuck with Lowell's $9 million salary. Which on their present day payroll would account for a little bit more than 33%.

No s***. Thats the basis of my arguement. That despite there being a fire sale, these players have value and cant just be had for nothing.

 

I said:

Are you saying that they could have been had for absolutely nothing. Just simply their contract?

 

You said:

Yeah, that's what fire sale tends to mean. Especially, if you're a 33 year old infielder with no place on a young team, who by the way, is making $9 million.

 

So basically you said that a fire sale means we can just walk up and take for NOTHING. So sarcastically I questioned why anybody gave up anyting at all to get the Marlins' players.

 

I think you guys just didnt realize my sarcasm.