Jonathan Papelbon in 2006

[ORS]

I didn't want to turn the Juan Gonzalez.... thread into a Papelbon discussion, but I think a thread worthy topic was brought up. RS said he didn't want Juan Gone to potentially take a roster spot that could be Papelbon's when the season begins. I responded with this post.

 

I think Papelbon might be best served starting the year in Pawtuckett. He's only had one really good outing in ST, and it was against the Marlins, a minor league club itself. He needs to hone those secondary pitches, and if he's doing it in the bigs while watching some of his FBs launched into orbit, it may mess with his head. Rest assured, someone in the rotation or bullpen will suck or be injured, so he won't be in AAA all year.

Which got this response.

 

I disagree, Papelbon proved last year he can win starting and relieving, he is ML ready, if he needed to hone anything that was a bg issue he'd be in MiL camp and not here. Also you cannot judge a player from how he performs in ST, who knows maybe Arroyo will be nails in the pen. His and other pitcher's FBs are getting launched because they are using that more and working on it's command, velocity, etc. just like Beckett.

I agree that Papelbon proved he's capable of pitching in MLB last year, but that isn't the whole story. Papelbon lived on his FB and FB alone last year, which since it is such a good pitch, made him very effective the first time through the lineup or in relief appearances, but he became pretty hittable his 2nd time through order. I think he's got potential to become a good MLB starter, but he needs to refine secondary pitches in order to do so. His slider and splitter have looked very good at times, but they are pretty inconsistent pitches right now, which is why I feel a start in AAA this year is warranted.

 

With the current pitchers on the roster, he's got no spot in the rotation. His learning curve has him below Schilling, Beckett, Wakefield, Clement, and Wells at this time, so that means if he's on the big club, he'll be a spot-starter/RP. I think putting him in that role will slow his development. Remember, Papelbon was a closer in college, and the Sox have been converting him to a SP. That means he needs to be starting consistently, another reason to start him in Pawtuckett, in order to develop the stamina he'll need at the highest level. Having him in the BP has some value, but is it worth potentially losing him as a SP in the future? I don't think it is.

 

Discuss.

[ksushi]

You're a fool. First off, Juan Gone has not earned any spot on the Red Sox as of yet, so hold your horses. I don't understand why people bag on papelbons secondary pitches. The guy has good secondary pitches. He is a power pitcher, they tend to rely heavily on the FB, and bringing up his ST thus far is a poor reason to throw out there. He worked on what he had to work on, got his innings and sat down. When he said he would come out and throw a good game, he came out and allowed only one hit. Yeah, essentially against a AAA team, but thats pretty impressive none the less. Papelbon should be in the rotation, forget AAA. Thats retarded. Sorry I don't have a cleaner response to this other than "You're a fool and thats retarded" but its really all I am scraping up here. You can't wait until a guy is 26 or 27 to let him get major league innings. The guy blew the minors up and now its his time to be a major leaguer. So he struggles, he is after all 25. Let him. He needs to be thrown into the fire at some point. Put him in the rotation, if he struggles take him out, if he keeps struggling limit his innings a little until he adjusts. This is how prospects are brought along. Then put him back into the fire of the rotation.

[ORS]

You're a fool.

Let's not get this sent to F&C. I'm not a fool, and you know it. It's sad that you have to resort to this when you can't refute the points I made.

I don't understand why people bag on papelbons secondary pitches. The guy has good secondary pitches. He is a power pitcher, they tend to rely heavily on the FB, and bringing up his ST thus far is a poor reason to throw out there. He worked on what he had to work on, got his innings and sat down.

Did you watch him pitch last year? Name one pitch besides the FB that he threw consistently for strikes or swing-and-misses. You can't, which is why I say he still needs some seasoning.

Papelbon should be in the rotation, forget AAA. Thats retarded...You can't wait until a guy is 26 or 27 to let him get major league innings. The guy blew the minors up and now its his time to be a major leaguer. So he struggles, he is after all 25. Let him. He needs to be thrown into the fire at some point. Put him in the rotation, if he struggles take him out, if he keeps struggling limit his innings a little until he adjusts. This is how prospects are brought along. Then put him back into the fire of the rotation.

Who does he start over? I can see putting him in the rotation if Wells or Clement is traded, but as it stands right now, they are both on the roster. And, Papelbon's the only one with options and in need of polish (those guys' stuff isn't likely to get much better), so he's the only one that can be sent down.

 

I'm not talking about wasting a year of his. If he's kicking ass in AAA, then he gets called up and takes the weakest link's spot. But, this gives the Sox the flexibility to see how he is doing without risking games toward the pennant while continuing his growth as a starter. This opinion doesn't come solely from his ST performance this year either, but more of a mix of what I saw last year and his struggles this spring.

[Cityofchampions33]

Yeah, I agree, one starter needs to be traded by Opening Day for him to get a starting rotation spot, and my money is on Clement. He has obivously leapfrogged Arroyo, but Clement has done everything to assure at least that he's returned to form.

 

Schilling

Wakefield

Wells

Beckett

Clement

Papelbon

Arroyo

[ksushi]

Let's not get this sent to F&C. I'm not a fool, and you know it. It's sad that you have to resort to this when you can't refute the points I made.

 

Calm down, Mr. I'm Auditioning to be a Moderator, take what I say with a grain of salt. Me calling you a fool isn't a personal thing at all. As someone who has had about 100 interactions with me on this board and others you should know that. Here, let me grab you a stool to help you off your high horse.

 

 

Did you watch him pitch last year? Name one pitch besides the FB that he threw consistently for strikes or swing-and-misses. You can't, which is why I say he still needs some seasoning.

 

Ah, sir, but you are forgetting one thing, Papelbon had already pitched more innings in this season than he had in one season ever in his life. The sox were trying to keep his innings down and had told him - and a couple others who had tired arms, Hansen being the only one that stands out to me - to stop throwing breaking pitches. So yeah, the guy relies heavily on his FB, but he will in a typical outing throw more breakers than he had last season in his call up. If you'll remember his innings were a concern going down the stretch, you might still be able to dig up articles on exactly what I'm talking about. I'll try but im rather busy.

 

Putting Papelbon in AAA is absolutely a mistake. No two ways about it. I'm not terribly averse to the idea of having him in the BP, but I think he does deserve to be in the rotation.

One starter will likely be traded, and Wells will be traded away for nothing if there isn't a reasonable deal out there for either Arroyo or Clement. Wells is close to burning his bridges and besides, I would rather have a 25 year old in the rotation to get some experience under his belt than give a soon-to-be 43 year old a spot for one more year before he retires. That to me, is a waste.

 

side note- champ, you think beckett is our fourth starter? Or was that in no particular order... because he is certainly not a fourth starter on any team.

[a700hitter]

Papelbon may be most valuable as a late inning (6th, 7th or8th) especially if Riske, Seanez nad Taverez are ineffective.

[ORS]

Calm down, Mr. I'm Auditioning to be a Moderator, take what I say with a grain of salt. Me calling you a fool isn't a personal thing at all. As someone who has had about 100 interactions with me on this board and others you should know that. Here, let me grab you a stool to help you off your high horse.

Just so you know, in the real world, when you call someone a fool it becomes personal. Try and remember that the next time you come back from la-la land. And, I'm auditioning for nothing. I have neither the time nor the desire to try and keep this place running smoothly (which the current moderating team does a good job of already), I expressed a desire to keep this thread on topic instead of it becoming a flame war.

 

Ah, sir, but you are forgetting one thing, Papelbon had already pitched more innings in this season than he had in one season ever in his life. The sox were trying to keep his innings down and had told him - and a couple others who had tired arms, Hansen being the only one that stands out to me - to stop throwing breaking pitches.

I read the same reports that said they wanted them to limit the number of breaking pitches they threw. That doesn't change the fact that the ones Papelbon threw weren't very consistent. His slider and splitter would fluctuate from impressive to flat, with more of them being rather unimpressive in between.

[ORS]

Papelbon may be most valuable as a late inning (6th, 7th or8th) especially if Riske, Seanez nad Taverez are ineffective.

In 2006, but that won't do much to help build his stamina to become a starter in 2007 and beyond.

[Cityofchampions33]

side note- champ, you think beckett is our fourth starter? Or was that in no particular order... because he is certainly not a fourth starter on any team.

that was just off of who I named first outta my head. However, it also shows how deep we are pitching-wsie, I mean we have 2 aces (Schill, Backett), 2 could-be 2nd punches (Wake, Wells), and the rest #3s in some rotations (Arroyo, Clement, Papelbon).

[BoSox21]

first off, I think it's a long shot for Juan Gone to make the 25 man roster to start the year and the worst Paps will do is start in the bullpen. I've gotta believe one of the following will be traded prior to April 5th to make room for Paps in the rotation: Wells, Clement, Arroyo. and I believe that's in order of likelyhood of being dealt

[CrespoBlows]

Why is everyone so eager to trade our starting pitching away? Last time I checked, having a surplus of good starting pitching is a good thing.

 

Unless we get something that can help our ballclub right now; I don't see us trading any of those pitchers.

[BoSox21]

well, I see a surplus in the rotation and I see our bullpen still lacking somewhat.

 

plus, I'm growing increasingly concerned about Lowell. I wonder if Graff can learn 3rd...

[CrespoBlows]

plus, I'm growing increasingly concerned about Lowell. I wonder if Graff can learn 3rd...

 

No, don't suggest that. Please don't.

[BoSox21]

just saying...

 

Lowell is as big of a question mark as anyone else on our roster

[jsinger121]

just saying...

 

Lowell is as big of a question mark as anyone else on our roster

 

Graffanino likely will not be with the Sox come opening day.

[BoSox21]

yea I know but when you think about how easy it should be for the sox to trade him and get value for him, doesn't it make you wonder if there's a reason he's still around? I know there's Alex Cora and Youk can obviously play 3rd but...I dunno, I just really like Graff

[ksushi]

To me, if you have lightning in a bottle like you have with Papelbon, you don't abandon it. Starting the kid in AAA after all he has done to earn his spot in the majors would be a major blow to the kid, and the wrong impression to give to arguably your best arm. He won't be in AAA, while your arguement is a semi-valid one, he has had bad numbers in ST, I think you are looking at early ST results a little to harshly. Wait and see what happens with his next start before you label it a bad spring. Guys really need to get their innings in, and get their stuff back together before really competing in a game. He will be a good SP should he be in that role, and he will be a good reliever should he be in the BP. He will not wind up in AAA unless his season stats put him there come May or June. I Don't think they will.

 

Graffanino does have some experience at third if memory serves me correctly. Lowell has popped up on my suck-radar too. Granted his glove could be good enough to keep him in the lineup if he has any semblance of a pulse at the plate (.250 being the cut off line depending on how he hits with RISP) but I am concerned that he's lost a step and some serious bat speed. Graffanino would be welcome in the starting lineup if you asked me. He isn't going to start over Loretta, but I could see him pushing Lowell out of the way at third.

 

And ORS, I came back from lala land saturday morning and the head ache still hasn't really left. Honestly, i know you aren't 15, stop re-living the high school days. fool, fool, fool. Who cares? I won't make the mistake of calling you out ever again, ok? I didn't mean for you to take it so personally. I say things like that rather liberally and will probably continue too.

[kreinbihl34]

In 2006, but that won't do much to help build his stamina to become a starter in 2007 and beyond.

 

He can build stamina in the offseason. He needs to be in the pen incase there is a melt down. Paps can come in and effectively put hitters down for many innings, something no one else can do in our bullpen. Being in AAA is not going to help him anymore. He already beat the crap outta them last year. Why put him there when what he needs is a challenge, i.e. MLB batters. Even if he is in the bullpen it will help him more the starting in AAA and also I rather save his arm while relieving, with the possibility that someone gets hurt. Then he can step up with a fresh arm and show everyone that he is for real. Also I really don't care what you think because you have proven to me that you are one of the most irrational thinkers on this Earth. Send someone to AAA because hes not starting for us... that makes me laugh.

[ORS]

He can build stamina in the offseason. He needs to be in the pen incase there is a melt down. Paps can come in and effectively put hitters down for many innings, something no one else can do in our bullpen.

No offseason training compares to actual game pitching, if it did they wouldn't steadily increase the number of IPs during each year of development. If you would have taken the time to notice, you would know that I think Papelbon should only start the season in AAA and that I'm in favor of calling him up if someone is hurt or sucking.

 

Readiing Comprehension Grade: F

 

Being in AAA is not going to help him anymore. He already beat the crap outta them last year. Why put him there when what he needs is a challenge, i.e. MLB batters.

He dominated AAA? Yeah, he's pitched well there, but I wouldn't rest my hat on only 4 appearances and 27 IPs. That is an extremely small sample size, but don't worry, that's not my true nitpick with this completely flawed line of reasoning. He shouldn't be sent down to AAA to prove himself. He should be sent down to work on his secondary pitches, and I'd rather have him do that in meaningless AAA games than in ones that count toward the AL East Pennant. Amazingly, that has been my point all along.

 

Reading Comprehension Grade: F-

 

Even if he is in the bullpen it will help him more the starting in AAA.

Right, because when a guy is being converted from a college reliever to a professional starter what he needs is more relief appearances. And, you call me irrational. HA!

[ORS]

And ORS, I came back from lala land saturday morning and the head ache still hasn't really left. Honestly, i know you aren't 15, stop re-living the high school days. fool, fool, fool. Who cares? I won't make the mistake of calling you out ever again, ok? I didn't mean for you to take it so personally. I say things like that rather liberally and will probably continue too.

Sorry man, but you aren't getting any free-passes from me on that one. When you call someone a fool and retarded, you are insulting their intelligence and being disrespectful. That's fine if you want to be that way, but I will respond in kind from now on.

[mtbykr]

Well i look at it this way: the sox obviously want paps to start at some point for the team or they would not have him doing it now in ST. They want to start to build up his strength for that purpose. Now if they need to they will stick him back in the pen to help out, however this is not their first choice. They can't just tell paps to "work on becoming a starter" in the offseason. To become an effective starter you need real game experience.

 

I have a feeling we will be a starter short come opening day (or close to it). There are talks about clement and bronson (to the reds for willy mo pena--and then they trade trot, which i don't like). I would rather see the fatman moved, but that's just me. Either way paps looks like he may be starting in 06, even shill is lobbying for him to. Whether it's at the beggining of the year or sometime during the season--my money is on him becoming a starter at the back of the rotation!

[Anuj09]

well Theo is begining to pull the trigger, i will not be surprised if Clement or Wells (though i dont want him out, his attitude is bad) also i think that Graff will be gone too

[kreinbihl34]

No offseason training compares to actual game pitching, if it did they wouldn't steadily increase the number of IPs during each year of development. If you would have taken the time to notice, you would know that I think Papelbon should only start the season in AAA and that I'm in favor of calling him up if someone is hurt or sucking.

 

Readiing Comprehension Grade: F

 

 

He dominated AAA? Yeah, he's pitched well there, but I wouldn't rest my hat on only 4 appearances and 27 IPs. That is an extremely small sample size, but don't worry, that's not my true nitpick with this completely flawed line of reasoning. He shouldn't be sent down to AAA to prove himself. He should be sent down to work on his secondary pitches, and I'd rather have him do that in meaningless AAA games than in ones that count toward the AL East Pennant. Amazingly, that has been my point all along.

 

Reading Comprehension Grade: F-

 

 

Right, because when a guy is being converted from a college reliever to a professional starter what he needs is more relief appearances. And, you call me irrational. HA!

 

Hold it I thought we were here to talk about the Red Sox, not try to be a ass and grade my "Reading Comprehension", dude seriously does that make you feel better about your life? Aparently you like to piss off people, honestly what do you want.

Finally about Paps, the part I bolded proved my point. We need him in the bullpen/ spot starter to win the AL East. Believe or not... we really do.

[Goalstopper]

true Papelbon may not be the best choice.but jaungon was for a minor league deal. plus it would be good for him when he is on the rotation because he will improve and he might not be consistent this year but next year he will be alot better than he was the past 2 years.

[ORS]

Hold it I thought we were here to talk about the Red Sox, not try to be a ass and grade my "Reading Comprehension", dude seriously does that make you feel better about your life? Aparently you like to piss off people, honestly what do you want.

Finally about Paps, the part I bolded proved my point. We need him in the bullpen/ spot starter to win the AL East. Believe or not... we really do.

I only take a smart-ass confrontational tone when others have first, which is exactly what you did by calling me the most irrational person on Earth and laughing at my idea without even f***ing understanding it. You don't like my tone? Then why did you start with the snarky remarks? It amazes me how many of you think it is OK to dish it out but act like little bitches when it comes back to you.

 

The Sox may very well need Papelbon in the 'pen this year, but they don't know that yet. Based on last year's performance all of the relievers in the pitching staff should be more than adequate, just like Papelbon should be. But, the only evidence we've seen to suggest that the relievers may not get the job done is their ST performance, unfortunately Papelbon's ST performance hasn't been what I'd call inspiring. So, we just don't know if we need him in the 'pen yet, but we should by the end of April. Heaven forbid we have a guy that's only made 4 AAA starts make a couple more.

 

Now, with Arroyo being traded, that changes things. If DiNardo isn't able to be the long-relief guy, then they may need to start him on the big club. However, I think DiNardo can handle that job, and I think Papelbon's development is better served by making regular starts in AAA than waiting for opportunities on the big club.

[kreinbihl34]

But he is 25 and needs MLB experience. Next year he will be a leading force in our rotation. Starting in AAA will not get him the experience of MLB situtations he needs.

[ORS]

I'd agree with him needing more MLB experience if he had been a starter all along, but he hasn't been. He's being converted from a reliever to a starter, and I think he needs to make regular starts to build his starter stamina.

[Sizzlin22]

Lowell is as big of a question mark as anyone else on our roster

True but he had an off year last year. I'm going to assume he goes back to normal form untill he proves that he won't.

[BoSox21]

and reading reports about his bat speed from this spring, the early signs aren't too good that he'll return to 2004 form.

 

but I always take anything in the spring with a grain of salt. it's just nice to have some insurance

[mtbykr]

Paps looked good last night. He didn't have hid good stuff (not by a long shot) and he battled through it and only gave up 2 runs (leaving with the lead) against the potential opening day roster for the yankers. (sub a hurt posada for stinnett)

 

On a side note; lowell looked like he was playing underwater both on D and at the plate. If it doesn't get better we should suck up the $9mil and move youk back to 3rd---and try something else at 1st!