Yankees' Offseason Review

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

the yankees could have helped themselves last yr when they could have taken craig hansen but instead took cj henry.

I actually have no problem with that selection because they took J Brent Cox in the next round anyway.

[jsinger121]

I actually have no problem with that selection because they took J Brent Cox in the next round anyway.

 

you can never have enough pitching

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

you can never have enough pitching

Taking 2 relivers in the 1st 2 rounds isnt the way I would draft. ESP in the MLB draft which is a crapshoot anyway.

[Bruce]

Moved up a few spots? Sure. MLB drafting is a process of attrition though. Not all early round picks pan out, so it is better to have more of them than it is to just move up a few spots. I'd say his help to the Yankee draft this year was extremely marginal. I guess knowing this is part of the process makes me a "homer" though? Whatever.

 

You're right. They should have tried to move down in the draft, because it doesn't matter.

 

The fact is, we signed two type A free agents and undeniably improved our draft position. That is a good thing. You are a homer because you're trying to pretend that this was a bad and/or irrelevant move. Letting Gordon go, with heavily declining peripherals, and getting two first round picks for him, is fantastic. Its fantastic because we're able to replace Gordon with someone younger and better, fill in a hole in CF that has been dogging us for years, and severely injure our primary rival with a net gain in our draft position. Tell me why this is bad.

 

Also, enjoy watching Alex Gonzalez get on base 25% of the time this year.

[TheRivernator]

we arent comparing to the sox in this instance. We are comparing to previous yrs for the yankees. This yr was a conservative offseason if you could believe that. Also, Cashman's adeptness at getting the international player is something else. Wang and Cano are both international Cashman signings and from what I've heard, the 17 yr old Tabata is projected to be something else by the time he is ready (likely 2009-2010). I know it is not as good as the sox whole farm system, but it is a start. Remember, the yankees had one of the worst farms in the entire game from AAA to rookie ball. Now that is not the case anymore. Also, farms take time to grow unless you sell off your talent and it also depends on what kind of talent you are growing. If you want quick hitters but maybe some limited potential, then you go for the college kids. If you want the potential high end guys then you draft the high schoolers and you have to wait awhile, sometimes as long as 7 years. The sox drafted college guys and lo and behold they are ready. The yankees went high school and they are almost there. Different philosophies with the potential to have similar results.

 

Look at the sox draft picks and their expected ETA's and their age in ()

Red Sox Yankees

2003 Murphy (24)2007 ....... Duncan(21) 2006-2007

Papelbon(25)2005 ....... Clippard (21) 2007-2008

Alvarez (23) 2006

2004 Pedroia (22)2006 ....... Hughes(19) 2007-2008

....................................... ........Poterson (19) 2008-2009

................................................Garcia (20) 2008-2009

2005 Hansen(22) 2006 ....... Henry (19) 2008-09

Ellsbury(22) 2007-2008 ....... Cox (21) 2006-2007

Buchholz(21) 2007-08

Lowrie(22) 2007-08

 

See my point? The sox reloaded their minor league system rather quickly with talent that is a little older, but the best prospects usually get taken out of HS. I know most of you will crucify the last statement, but ESPN actually ran a story about college vs high school players, and they showed that a higher percentage of picks drafted out of college made the bigs, but the highest profile players were the ones drafted out of HS. I guess it is all about the gamble of drafting a HS player that makes it so trendy. It is kinda like playing the 25cent or the 5 dollar slots. You could really blow your money on the five dollar slots but if you hit it big, then you are rolling in it. If you play the 25 cent slots, you will likely not win big, but you wont lose big either, so it is a safer bet. The yankees are going the daring route and the sox have gone the safe route, and unfortunately for yankee fans, the daring route is a patient one at that.....

[Bruce]

you can never have enough pitching

 

But you can have too many high ceiling position player prospects? Hansen is overrated and overpriced, especially for a guy who did his college pitching in the Big East. Giving a major league contract to a guy who was just pitching against UConn when you can take a potential 5-tool SS is a pretty stupid move, especially with a cheaper player available in the next round, who is fresh off of dominating the Big 12 and winning the CWS. Not picking Hansen is one of the best moves this front office has made in the last 5 years.

[jsinger121]

But you can have too many high ceiling position player prospects? Hansen is overrated and overpriced, especially for a guy who did his college pitching in the Big East. Giving a major league contract to a guy who was just pitching against UConn when you can take a potential 5-tool SS is a pretty stupid move, especially with a cheaper player available in the next round, who is fresh off of dominating the Big 12 and winning the CWS. Not picking Hansen is one of the best moves this front office has made in the last 5 years.

 

id rather have a 97 mph fastball and a dominating slider closing out games than an 17 yr shortstop who may or may not even reach the big leagues.

[26 to 6]

Moved up a few spots? Sure. MLB drafting is a process of attrition though. Not all early round picks pan out, so it is better to have more of them than it is to just move up a few spots. I'd say his help to the Yankee draft this year was extremely marginal. I guess knowing this is part of the process makes me a "homer" though? Whatever.

Say what you want about the draft order and whatnot, about how early picks dont always pan out so having the earlier pick isnt always the best, but rather havinf more picks is, because I agree with you 100%

But answer me this. Would you rather have the #28 pick (Yankees original pick, lost to Boston for Johnny Damon) or the #21 pick (from the Phillies for Gordon)? If you say the #28, you are a retard. I am sorry. Moving up our first round pick 7 spots is an improvement regardless of what you say. So I find it comical that you find it comical that we think Cashman has improved out draft situation. Granted, he didnt do a whole hell of a lot, but fact of the matter is its better than before.

 

Now I know you're going to argue that because of our greedy, evil, horrible front office chose to go and spend money on Damon that we lost out on TWO first round picks, but think about it. What sense does it make to go out and trade Minor League prospects for a Center Fielder when we can sign one, and lose a draft pick. Its not like we have no first round pick, because we have the #21 pick from the Phillies. You would agree that the Yankees need to keep their farm in tact and stable and not go out and trade prospects for proven players. So thats what we did. Wouldnt make much sense to go any other route than JOhnny Damon. So Cashman took into acount more than the draft, he also took into account the fact that any other option would cost us one or two, or maybe three or 4 prospects. Now lets say that we trade 3 prospects for a center fielder and not sign Damon and keep our #28 pick. We would be losing 3 prospects, drafting one, essentially losing two prospects. Why do that when we can just sign Damon, and lose a pick, and keep our 3 prospects.

Yes, of coarse 2 first round picks would be better than one, but when you look at the big picture, bottom line is he kept the farm in tact (with the exception of the Ben Julienel for Ron Villone trade), and improved our first round drafting positon by 7 spots. So regardless of what you say his offseason is more on the positive than it is on the negative. Sorry.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

Say what you want about the draft order and whatnot, about how early picks dont always pan out so having the earlier pick isnt always the best, but rather havinf more picks is, because I agree with you 100%

But answer me this. Would you rather have the #28 pick (Yankees original pick, lost to Boston for Johnny Damon) or the #21 pick (from the Phillies for Gordon)? If you say the #28, you are a retard. I am sorry. Moving up our first round pick 7 spots is an improvement regardless of what you say. So I find it comical that you find it comical that we think Cashman has improved out draft situation. Granted, he didnt do a whole hell of a lot, but fact of the matter is its better than before.

 

Now I know you're going to argue that because of our greedy, evil, horrible front office chose to go and spend money on Damon that we lost out on TWO first round picks, but think about it. What sense does it make to go out and trade Minor League prospects for a Center Fielder when we can sign one, and lose a draft pick. Its not like we have no first round pick, because we have the #21 pick from the Phillies. You would agree that the Yankees need to keep their farm in tact and stable and not go out and trade prospects for proven players. So thats what we did. Wouldnt make much sense to go any other route than JOhnny Damon. So Cashman took into acount more than the draft, he also took into account the fact that any other option would cost us one or two, or maybe three or 4 prospects. Now lets say that we trade 3 prospects for a center fielder and not sign Damon and keep our #28 pick. We would be losing 3 prospects, drafting one, essentially losing two prospects. Why do that when we can just sign Damon, and lose a pick, and keep our 3 prospects.

Yes, of coarse 2 first round picks would be better than one, but when you look at the big picture, bottom line is he kept the farm in tact (with the exception of the Ben Julienel for Ron Villone trade), and improved our first round drafting positon by 7 spots. So regardless of what you say his offseason is more on the positive than it is on the negative. Sorry.

I agree 100%. I have said this before I would rather sign Damon and lose the draft picks rather then give up top prospects for a CFer. In the Yankees case I assume it would have been both Duncan and Hughes who Cleveland would have wanted plus prob Cano. I'd rather go the Damon route(which they did) then that.

[26 to 6]

the yankees could have helped themselves last yr when they could have taken craig hansen but instead took cj henry.

I agree. I was ready to scream when I learned that we had passed on Hansen (I had been following him and where he would end up after MSG Network ran a lengthy spot on him 2 or 3 days prior to the draft). Then I was kicking myself when I learned it was for a shortstop...the one position that we DONT need a player at. And then I was ready to run right into traffic on the Deegan when I heard that the Red Sox got him. So no arguements there.

[kreinbihl34]

we arent comparing to the sox in this instance. We are comparing to previous yrs for the yankees. This yr was a conservative offseason if you could believe that. Also, Cashman's adeptness at getting the international player is something else. Wang and Cano are both international Cashman signings and from what I've heard, the 17 yr old Tabata is projected to be something else by the time he is ready (likely 2009-2010). I know it is not as good as the sox whole farm system, but it is a start. Remember, the yankees had one of the worst farms in the entire game from AAA to rookie ball. Now that is not the case anymore. Also, farms take time to grow unless you sell off your talent and it also depends on what kind of talent you are growing. If you want quick hitters but maybe some limited potential, then you go for the college kids. If you want the potential high end guys then you draft the high schoolers and you have to wait awhile, sometimes as long as 7 years. The sox drafted college guys and lo and behold they are ready. The yankees went high school and they are almost there. Different philosophies with the potential to have similar results.

 

Look at the sox draft picks and their expected ETA's and their age in ()

Red Sox Yankees

2003 Murphy (24)2007 ....... Duncan(21) 2006-2007

Papelbon(25)2005 ....... Clippard (21) 2007-2008

Alvarez (23) 2006

2004 Pedroia (22)2006 ....... Hughes(19) 2007-2008

....................................... ........Poterson (19) 2008-2009

................................................Garcia (20) 2008-2009

2005 Hansen(22) 2006 ....... Henry (19) 2008-09

Ellsbury(22) 2007-2008 ....... Cox (21) 2006-2007

Buchholz(21) 2007-08

Lowrie(22) 2007-08

 

See my point? The sox reloaded their minor league system rather quickly with talent that is a little older, but the best prospects usually get taken out of HS. I know most of you will crucify the last statement, but ESPN actually ran a story about college vs high school players, and they showed that a higher percentage of picks drafted out of college made the bigs, but the highest profile players were the ones drafted out of HS. I guess it is all about the gamble of drafting a HS player that makes it so trendy. It is kinda like playing the 25cent or the 5 dollar slots. You could really blow your money on the five dollar slots but if you hit it big, then you are rolling in it. If you play the 25 cent slots, you will likely not win big, but you wont lose big either, so it is a safer bet. The yankees are going the daring route and the sox have gone the safe route, and unfortunately for yankee fans, the daring route is a patient one at that.....

 

Alright so your saying that you would rather take a high schooler that shows promise or a college player that dominated at high school then at college... for me I rather have the proven talent, thats why are farm system is in great shape and if you don't agree with me on the whole college player thing ask yourself this...

How many teams want Paps and how many teams want Duncan?

[TheRivernator]

having a successful single A is meaningless and does not mean the big club will be successful in the future.

 

??? If we are talking about the health of the farm system, then how does your above statement make any sense?

[TheRivernator]

id rather have a 97 mph fastball and a dominating slider closing out games than an 17 yr shortstop who may or may not even reach the big leagues.

 

I cannot believe people are actually fighting over this area. Here is the deal, the yankees have a different philosophy than the red sox, period. The HS philosophy as I have said before is one that is riskier but usually pays off more in the end. The college route is a good way to restock quickly, but you usually limit the potential you receive in return. It is a stupid thing to argue which one is better for long term success, but each of them works for both organizations. Take a look at the yankees. They have long term contracts at 1b, 3b, ss, cf, lf and have a rookie at 2b. That means that even if they had any rookie infielders that were ready, their paths would be blocked. Now, take a look at the ETAs of these guys and the expected expiration of the guys with the long term deals. See where I am going? Also, for some reason NY is a tough place to play. Giving these kids those 3-4 extra yrs in the minors can help them ready for the steep challenge ahead. For the sox, how many prospects have their paths blocked? They are ready now or will be ready in the next year or so. You could trade them off when they get ready and that is what the sox have done mainly and that works for them. Also, the sox have made a massive attempt to try and save money in the future and to get younger, so a youth movement could be something that is on the horizon and you can only do that if your players are ready. The sox guys are. The yankees plug players in one at a time around superstars. Therefore for them, having a bunch of rookies ready at one time is detrimental because their paths are blocked, so gambling and maybe hitting it big 2 out of 4 times with one of those guys being a potential superstar works best for them. See what I mean? It will work for both squads and arguing which philosophy worked is premature. All I know is that for their age, the yankee 1st rounders will be advancing rapidly which is always a good thing. Duncan is in AAA, Hughes will be in AA and CJ Henry will likely see time in High A this yr.....

[TheRivernator]

Alright so your saying that you would rather take a high schooler that shows promise or a college player that dominated at high school then at college... for me I rather have the proven talent, thats why are farm system is in great shape and if you don't agree with me on the whole college player thing ask yourself this...

How many teams want Paps and how many teams want Duncan?

 

again a horrible argument. Duncan is 4 yrs younger than Papelbon and has yet to take his first swings in the MLB. Pap has already had a half season in the MLB and is MLB ready. Duncan is close, but not yet. BUT, Duncan has 4 yrs to make the jump from AAA to the MLB to be on the same pace as Papelbon. Also, everyone who dealt with the yankees wanted Duncan or Hughes and we held our ground....

[ORS]

You're right. They should have tried to move down in the draft, because it doesn't matter.

 

The fact is, we signed two type A free agents and undeniably improved our draft position. That is a good thing. You are a homer because you're trying to pretend that this was a bad and/or irrelevant move. Letting Gordon go, with heavily declining peripherals, and getting two first round picks for him, is fantastic. Its fantastic because we're able to replace Gordon with someone younger and better, fill in a hole in CF that has been dogging us for years, and severely injure our primary rival with a net gain in our draft position. Tell me why this is bad.

 

Also, enjoy watching Alex Gonzalez get on base 25% of the time this year.

Where do I say it's bad? Hell, I even say it's an improvement, but it is a very marginal one. I lean toward this aspect of Cashman's offseason as being a non-issue. Moving up a few spots, while it is an improvement, it certainly isn't worth the fellating he got in the offseason review. That has been my point all along, and I have said nothing contrary to it. I guess I'd rather be a homer than a couple of idiots who can't read and comprehend.

[ORS]

FWIW, the Sox don't only take collegians with their high draft picks. They had 6 picks in the first 2 rounds last year. With the first 4 they took college players, but the next two were high ceiling HS players Michael Bowden and Jonathan Egan. Drafting ready collegiate players is part of the Sox drafting strategy, but not the only part.

[riverside sluggers]

Bruce: The fact is, we signed two type A free agents and undeniably improved our draft position. That is a good thing.

 

Overall the Sox are set to improve their farm even more, including Damon's and Mueller's compensated draft picks... the sox will get 7 picks in the first 3 rounds. Id say thats pretty good.

 

But you can have too many high ceiling position player prospects? Hansen is overrated and overpriced, especially for a guy who did his college pitching in the Big East. Giving a major league contract to a guy who was just pitching against UConn when you can take a potential 5-tool SS is a pretty stupid move, especially with a cheaper player available in the next round, who is fresh off of dominating the Big 12 and winning the CWS. Not picking Hansen is one of the best moves this front office has made in the last 5 years.

 

And IMO it is pathetic to talk crap about Hansen, "oh he's overrated". Especially that last sentence, them not drafting Hansen is one of the best moves in the last 5 years?? Must be slow goings of the Yankees FO if that was one of the "best moves" they had done since 2001. You need to realize he was scouted as the best pitcher taken in the 1st round. Rightfully so he will start the season off in Triple A, he just needs to his slider down and be set to be the opening day closer of 2007.

-----------------------

here's his scouting report

 

Scouting Report: Hansen's fastball (the best in the system) has topped out in the high 90s, and he consistently hits the mid-90s. He also possesses an excellent high-80s slider, which also was voted best in the system by Baseball America. A fierce competitor who has an excellent closer mentality. Does not walk many batters. Named "closest to the majors" of all players in the 2005 draft.

[Bruce]

Where do I say it's bad? Hell, I even say it's an improvement, but it is a very marginal one. I lean toward this aspect of Cashman's offseason as being a non-issue. Moving up a few spots, while it is an improvement, it certainly isn't worth the fellating he got in the offseason review. That has been my point all along, and I have said nothing contrary to it. I guess I'd rather be a homer than a couple of idiots who can't read and comprehend.

 

You're missing the point. The point is, we signed Farnsworth and Damon, which should have crippled us in the draft, to the tune of no first or second round picks. Instead, by letting Gordon, a 38 year old reliever on the decline, walk, we now have BETTER draft position than before. So, its not about the original first round pick and second round pick versus the new first round pick and sandwich pick, its about NO first or second round pick versus the new first round pick and sandwich pick. That is why it is not a non-issue.

[Bruce]

Overall the Sox are set to improve their farm even more, including Damon's and Mueller's compensated draft picks... the sox will get 7 picks in the first 3 rounds. Id say thats pretty good.

 

What the hell does this have to do with anything? I'm not comparing the Red Sox to the Yankees. I'm saying that the Yankees made a good move. Yeah, you'll have 3 more picks in the first 3 rounds, but you also had to trade Andy Marte to do it, AND you've still got Alex Gonzalez, a terrible player, at SS next year.

 

And IMO it is pathetic to talk crap about Hansen, "oh he's overrated". Especially that last sentence, them not drafting Hansen is one of the best moves in the last 5 years?? Must be slow goings of the Yankees FO if that was one of the "best moves" they had done since 2001. You need to realize he was scouted as the best pitcher taken in the 1st round. Rightfully so he will start the season off in Triple A, he just needs to his slider down and be set to be the opening day closer of 2007.

-----------------------

here's his scouting report

 

Scouting Report: Hansen's fastball (the best in the system) has topped out in the high 90s, and he consistently hits the mid-90s. He also possesses an excellent high-80s slider, which also was voted best in the system by Baseball America. A fierce competitor who has an excellent closer mentality. Does not walk many batters. Named "closest to the majors" of all players in the 2005 draft.

 

He was not scouted as the best pitcher. He's a reliever. He may turn out to be an exceptional reliever, but he still won't be able to produce anywhere near the value of a starter or an everyday player. And, as I said, the Yankees drafted a cheaper, comparable player in the next round, one who faced vastly superior competition in college.

[Bruce]

id rather have a 97 mph fastball and a dominating slider closing out games than an 17 yr shortstop who may or may not even reach the big leagues.

 

Hansen is no guarantee to dominate anything. He looked pretty mediocre at the end of last year. And he's a no-guarantee with a major league deal.

 

Of course, we could have made the whole thing moot by drafting Huston Street instead of Jon "I Suck" Poterson the year before.

[riverside sluggers]

He looked pretty mediocre at the end of last year.

 

Do you mean the total 3 innings pitched in the majors?? Thanks spin doctor but those 3 innings doesnt necessarily mean he wont make it in the majors. Things to take in consideration just 5 months earlier he graduated from college, thats a big leap for any pitcher and plus before he was called up had been on a shut down due to cut down on his innings pitched as a precaution. Lets also throw out he had 10 scoreless innings with 10 Ks making his quick jump to Double A. Just because he's a Red Sox shouldnt cloud that this kid has potential stuff to be a great pitcher.

[Bruce]

Do you mean the total 3 innings pitched in the majors?? Thanks spin doctor but those 3 innings doesnt necessarily mean he wont make it in the majors. Things to take in consideration just 5 months earlier he graduated from college, thats a big leap for any pitcher and plus before he was called up had been on a shut down due to cut down on his innings pitched as a precaution. Lets also throw out he had 10 scoreless innings with 10 Ks making his quick jump to Double A. Just because he's a Red Sox shouldnt cloud that this kid has potential stuff to be a great pitcher.

 

Holy crap! Learn to read! I was refuting the claim that he was guaranteed to dominate. I didn't say he won't make it in the majors. I said he's not a sure thing. And he isn't. And yes, he has potential. But would you rather have a potentially great relief pitcher or a potentially great position player? I'd definitely go for the second one. Especially since pitchers are so injury-prone.

[riverside sluggers]

Im not worried about not getting a shortstop early in last year's draft as we are set to have Dustin Pedroia, who does have a shot still of becoming the regular shortstop this season.

[ORS]

You're missing the point. The point is, we signed Farnsworth and Damon, which should have crippled us in the draft, to the tune of no first or second round picks. Instead, by letting Gordon, a 38 year old reliever on the decline, walk, we now have BETTER draft position than before. So, its not about the original first round pick and second round pick versus the new first round pick and sandwich pick, its about NO first or second round pick versus the new first round pick and sandwich pick. That is why it is not a non-issue.

Color me unimpressed with giving up any picks for Farnsworth. His K/9, BB/9, H/9 and WHIP are very similar to Seanez's, but Rudy gives up the long ball to a tune of .44 less per 9 innings. Sure, Farnsworth is younger, but Rudy came for less money and a shorter contract meaning the team that signed him isn't stuck paying him $5.67M for the next three years if he can't hack it in the AL east, and he didn't cost any picks. The Damon signing was a good one for the Yankees. They have next to nothing in the cupboard so trading for a CF would have totally depleted it, whereas the Sox farm is fairly well stocked so giving up some prospects for Crisp doesn't hurt as much. Plus, when Damon's fielding goes into decline at the end of his contract, and that is very likely to happen, he can be moved into the expansive LF at Yankee stadium. The opposite is true of Fenway, and Damon doesn't have enough arm to man RF or enough stick to justify playing LF in Fenway.

[The Monster is my Mom]

And enjoy Farnsworth and his wonderful, fiery personality. He's bound to start a couple fights, and is probably a clubhouse cancer. Take it from someone who lives in Michigan and saw him in Detroit part of last year (wonder why the Tigers were so quick to dump him?)

[Bruce]

Im not worried about not getting a shortstop early in last year's draft as we are set to have Dustin Pedroia, who does have a shot still of becoming the regular shortstop this season.

 

I'm not talking about the Red Sox, dope. Man, you're slow.

[riverside sluggers]

I'm not talking about the Red Sox, dope. Man, you're slow.

 

i was responding to your quote

 

But would you rather have a potentially great relief pitcher or a potentially great position player? I'd definitely go for the second one. Especially since pitchers are so injury-prone.

 

as you were basically asking me.. Who would I want, a potential dominant relief pitcher like Hansen or a high caliber shortstop prospect like CJ Henry. God forbid I answer back

 

We're just having fun and shooting the s*** here. No doubt Yankees have promising prospects, Im actuall anticipating Hughes' major league debut as it will also be a big step up from the lacluster debut of Sean Henn. How about if we let bygones be bygones. And start off on the right foot, talksox has already had its share of meaningless arguments. ok?

[VA Sox Fan]

I'm not talking about the Red Sox, dope. Man, you're slow.

 

 

Besides being one of those smart ass, know it all MFY fan-type, what is THIS guy's problem?

[The Monster is my Mom]

I'm not talking about the Red Sox, dope. Man, you're slow.

 

Man, there ain't no reason to be mean. We're just having a friendly conversation.:thumbsup:

[Americal Man]

One of the main reasons a college player is a better pick is that they have matured mentally and have almost reached the physical stature they would be playing at in the majors. Plus they will have established a baseline of success that can be evaluated and even projected. The wait to see them in action is shorter and they have a better chance of staying because they are not spending 8-10 years in the minor leagues.

 

BTW, we are not upset you have Damon because you will be getting him in his declining years. He will have so many outside distractions (along with his wife) that his overall production will suffer. Our loss will be your loss.