Wait Till.....

[elsrbueno]

This team's layin down out there! Bring up Shoppach to start learning catcher....is it too late to send Varitek to a contender for prospects before July 31?

 

Here's the scoop:

 

Send Tek to Oakland (they need a catcher badly) for prospects (Blanton?)

 

Let Mirabelli start behind the plate, but call up Shoppach to ride the pine and learn the ropes. He'll take over full-time in 05.

 

Trade Nomar/Pedro to LA for one of their good pitching prospects and some more decent prospects. LA can resign him, so it's not like he's a rental.

 

Trade Manny to the Mets or anyone who'll take him for whatever you can get back!

 

Play Pokey at short, Belly at second, Youk at third. When Mueller comes back, he can spell Belly/Youk.

 

Tek strikes/grounds out with runners on base, Nomar's a great player who hates management, Pedro's mouthy, and Manny is well....Manny.

 

For the love of pete, get some speed and some energy on this team!

[elsrbueno]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1827429

 

 

OK, here it is:

 

Trade Nomar, Tek, and Manny to the D-Rays for Crawford, Upton, Young (the guy they drafted last year).

[yeszir]

Is this a joke?

[JMDurron]

Originally posted by yeszir@Jun 24 2004, 03:45 PM

Is this a joke?

The trade idea, or the whole thread?

[yeszir]

Originally posted by JMDurron+Jun 24 2004, 05:00 PM-->

QUOTE (JMDurron @ Jun 24 2004, 05:00 PM)

[elsrbueno]

More venting frustration than anything else.....but the Sox need to do SOMEthing to get the team going....and possibly something radical.

 

Maybe just ONE of these moves

[Zenny]

I have never been a Varitek fan (that should be pretty evident), but he has really been frustrating at the plate. I also find myself questioning some of his pitch selections as well. Meanwhile, I went to Monday's PawSox game and Shoppach called a fantastic game for John Stephens, no joke.

 

I've got a couple problems with trading 'Tek. First, Shoppach has the defense, throwing, game-calling, walking and hitting homeruns down. All he needs to do is improve his contact over the rest of the season and he should be ready. He is hitting over .300 since mid-May, so it is coming. Second, having him ride the pine would not be beneficial to his development and thrusting him into the big league role right now may be too much. Third, Mirabelli has more problems making contact than Russell Branyan. You have no idea how frustrating it would be to watch Mirabelli hit everyday.

 

I know you are frustrated, but blowing this team up because they have gone 1-2 in their last three series is rediculous. This team can hit and pitch with the best of them. This team is making the playoffs and it is anyone's game from there. We don't need a Carlos Beltran type. What we need is someone who can stabilize that rotation. Man, I wish we could get Oliver Perez, but we have no shot in hell at that.

[Pedro]

Watching the Sox these days just isn't fun... and I've been making some rather ignorant and careless posts lately because of it. They seem so uninspired... I now prepare myself for another heart attack 1st inning by Pedro tomorrow night.

[Zenny]

Also, something to realize that I forgot to put in my last post: We are going to get some fantastic draft picks next season as compensation for Lowe and whoever else leaves. Lowe looks headed to either Detroit (where he's from) or Colorado (where he'd get the most money) and we know that those teams are going to be among the worst five in the league, so we're probably going to get a top five draft pick, not to mention the supplemental round pick, picks from other lost free-agents and our own picks! I've got a great feeling about next year's draft.

 

So if this team tanks, there's no need to fret!

[elsrbueno]

It's not just the last 3 series. This team is playing .500 ball since May 1!!!!

 

On April 30th, the Sox were 15-6. A pretty good.

On June 24th, the Sox are 40-31. I did the math, they're exactly 25-25 since the end of April. Playing like that DOESN'T get you the division title, it doesn't get you the wild card...hell, in the AL East, it won't even get you SECOND PLACE!!!

 

The Sox don't need Beltran. But if they play .500 bal until July 31st...they wont have a chance to catch Oakland/Anaheim for the wild card!

[Pedro]

It's because Pedro has been inconsistent. If he is the pitcher he's been the last 7 years, no way we play .500 ball since May... especially with an Ace like Schilling also on the staff.

 

Tim Wakefield has just been flat out crappy this month.

[elsrbueno]

The series with the Twinkies had nothing to do with Pedro, and EVERYthing to do with this team's lack of intensity, and clutch hitting.

 

Three GIDPs in key situations in a 4-2 loss?!?

 

David comes through to tie the game, the team loses on an error and a sacrifice with the best pitcher on the mound?

 

Pedro's only 1/5th of the rotation, and 1/25th of the team. He certainly isn't helping, but he ISN'T the reason the team's played .500 since May.

 

With last year's team, I'd take a 7IP, 4 run performance from Wake every time. He'd win most games. This team just doesn't have that same feeling.

[YanksHater213]

Originally posted by Pedro@Jun 24 2004, 06:17 PM

It's because Pedro has been inconsistent. If he is the pitcher he's been the last 7 years, no way we play .500 ball since May... especially with an Ace like Schilling also on the staff.

 

Tim Wakefield has just been flat out crappy this month.

petey will be good the rest of the season, he just has been notorious for slow starts. he has been heating up lately though

 

wakefield is always hit or miss. hes just been on the miss side lately

[Pedro]

and this is his slowest yet. I don't recall him ever having a 3.91 ERA this late in June. 2002 may have been the only other year, and he went on like a 35+ scoreless inning streak to get it down. It is going to be difficult to even get it below 3 by the end of the year.

[Old Hoss]

I truly hope that I'm wrong but this team doesn't appear to be any different from all the other Red Sox teams that have disappointed the fans in the past. They've just lost the last three series and it doesn't seem to bother them one bit. Must be nice to be millionaires.....

[yeszir]

Originally posted by Old Hoss@Jun 25 2004, 12:42 AM

I truly hope that I'm wrong but this team doesn't appear to be any different from all the other Red Sox teams that have disappointed the fans in the past. They've just lost the last three series and it doesn't seem to bother them one bit. Must be nice to be millionaires.....

It is the same team as last year pretty much. The same one that really showed no emotion after losing you know what against you know who, except for Trot who killed that water cooler.

 

I guess they just have the little league "at least we had fun" mentality. Kevin Millar may be at fault here.

[Zenny]

Originally posted by yeszir+Jun 25 2004, 12:42 PM-->

QUOTE (yeszir @ Jun 25 2004, 12:42 PM)

[elsrbueno]

I agree. The big killer with Tek has been his performance with RISP.

 

It can be summed up in one word: "Pathetic."

[sarasoxfan]

"Sometimes, quite simply, it looks like they're coasting. Like they are going through the motions and biding their time. Like they expect to win just by showing up. "

 

I thought I'd add this quote from the herald into the mix. I agree with most of you.

 

No clutch hitting, bad middle relief, poor managing.

 

UNfortunately, Francona is another in a series of nice guys that let the players manage themselves. The Cowboy Up theme highlighted by Kevin Millar, sounds silly when Millar is hitting like a Dallas Cowgirl.

 

I seem to remember feeling like this last year at some point last summer after a coiuple of horrible games in baltimore and Tampa...and that worked out.

 

Wouldnt lou pinella look good in the dugout?

[Tek04]

Varitek is the most important player on the team you fools, hes the number 1 priority, without someone like varitek behind the plate we'd be in last place right now

[Zenny]

Originally posted by Tek04@Jun 26 2004, 12:51 PM

Varitek is the most important player on the team you fools, hes the number 1 priority, without someone like varitek behind the plate we'd be in last place right now

Please, that is the most overrated excuse I have ever heard, not just from you, but from the media as well. All catchers have to prepare with their pitching staff, it's not like Varitek is some ingenious god who is developing this revolutionary method.

 

He doesn't hit with RISP, he doesn't have a career grand-slam (that's a little tid-bit for you), I have been seriously questioning some of the calls he has made behind the plate, he has stupid contract demands and we have a better, cheaper replacement waiting at AAA for next season.

 

The Sox might be in first if they had a better hitter with RISP and game-caller. I am fed up with Varitek. I've never been a fan and I'm glad to see he'll be gone after the season. We should save our money on real priorities.

[Tek04]

Originally posted by Zenny+Jun 26 2004, 01:08 PM-->

QUOTE (Zenny @ Jun 26 2004, 01:08 PM)

[Tek04]

No career grand slams? who the hell cares...im sure if a team is looking at varitek they are not gonna say "hmm no grand slams, i dont want him now"

[Zenny]

Varitek is not the best at what he does. He has never won a Gold Glove and he's never been worthy of it. He's never lead major league catchers in any major offensive category either. He's a solid major league catcher, but to put him in Ausmus', Matheny's or I-Rod's league defensively is rediculous and to mention him as an offensive player like Piazza, I-Rod, Posada or even Victor Martinez is also way out of line.

 

I just watched that first inning and I seriously question a lot of the calls that he made behind the plate. In that Abreu at bat, all he did was throw outside. Bronson obviously wasn't spotting the outside fastball well, yet Tek made him throw three of them all for balls well off of the plate. Bronson didn't throw one changeup in that at bat, yet that is (or should be if Varitek was competent) his main weapon against left-handed hitters. He didn't throw one and it resulted in a walk. In the Rollins at bat, the Sox are lucky that Rollins isn't a strong guy, because any of the other left-handers in that line-up would've sent that offering into the bullpen.

 

As far as the grand slam comment, that was to emphasize his inability to hit with RISP. He's never done it in the past and he's not going to start doing it this season.

 

If you would take Varitek over Manny, Trot, Ortiz, Pedro, Foulke, Nomar or Schilling, I think I need to question your knowledge of baseball, not you of mine like you did two posts back.

[noonanberg]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. What is this? A bad stretch in the early part of the season and we're all ready to toss in the towel? The Sox have a lot of home games until the break, and they are much better at the Fen. Let's also not forget a little thing called the Wild Card. No other team will compete with us for that. The West is in a collapse after Texas, and the Central is a joke. If I am correct, and I am, both the Marlins and Angels went all the way from the Wild Card slot. Hell, we were a Grady Little away from it last year. Our team is better than last year's brand and they still have a more TEAMlike environment than before. As always the only thin standing in our way is the Evil Empire. The path to the Series will go through them one way or another. We've dominated them to this point and they no longer have the pitching that can compete with us. Even if they did, let's not forget that last year we outmuscled two All- Star and future Hall- of- Fame pitchers (Mussina and Clemens) to get 5 outs away. Let's also not forget that there was little optimism for the 'pen last year since Williamson was shaky, the Kim breakdown and we had no closer. So what happened? Williamson and Timlin were lights out the entire playoffs, we battled back from a 2-0 deficit to go to the ALCS and Wakefield was dominant except for one pitch. Pedro pitched well, Lowe was actually good and Arroyo was lights out. Ortiz was only 2 for 21 in the ALDS, but one hit saved our playoff hopes. This team pulled it together when they needed to last year and they'll do it again this year, only this time with more talent.

[Zenny]

noonanberg, I completely agree. This team is too talented not too win. Let's give them a shot and see what they can do.

 

Back to my Varitek ramblings, here are some of this season's splits for "The Golden Boy":

 

Runners in Scoring Position: .254

Bases Loaded: .091

RISP, 2 outs: .235

Close and Late: .216

 

NOTE: Close and late is defined as, "results in the 7th inning or later with the batting team either ahead by one run, tied or with the potential tying run at least on deck."

 

Road: .248/.374/.376/.750; only 8 extra-base hits (5 2B, 3 HR)

 

Let's not forget at how bad he is at throwing runners out. Only 28.3% this season and that is best of his career.

 

Is that worth $10 million dollars a season? He's already making $7 million this season and there's no chance in hell that he takes a pay-cut. A catcher at the age that is typical for the beginning of a catcher's decline who has a .750 OPS outside of Fenway Park and has been questionable in his game-calling. No thank you.

[Tek04]

you can ramble and ramble all you want...but varitek is the best catcher for this team and in the league in my opinion, he is simply in a big slump lately...and i hate to tell you but varitek is the number 1 priority to sign, eveybody in the redsox organzation knows that

[Tek04]

oh yea what team is I-rod on? oh yea the tigers, nobody cares about the tigers cause they suck, sure they are better than last year but they are not gonna make the playoffs so forget about i-rod....martinez is on the Guardians, they suck, ausmus is on the 4th place astros...none of these teams will make the playoffs excpet the yankees and redsox....so who cares what all these other players do? cuz i dont give a rats ass cuz i know varitek is better than all of them

[Zenny]

Look, I'm not going to fight with another Sox fan over this. I fight with enough Yankee fans about other things. I'm just going to add a few more bits of logic, reasoning and statistics to the debate and then I'm done. You can say that Varitek is the best without truly backing it up or refuting anything I say, that is your right. Sox Brass knows what they are doing and Jason Varitek doesn't appear to be high on their list, nor should he be.

 

If Varitek was the number one priority to sign, why hasn't he even been extended a contract offer yet? Hell, even Lowe has gotten contract offers.

 

A .750 road OPS is really fantastic, huh. Yeah, best catcher in the league material.

 

A player's team has nothing to do with how good they are. Ausmus, I-Rod and Matheny are all far and away superior to Varitek defensively. Look into their stats and them compare them to Varitek's. Huge difference. He's not even in the same universe. He's 18th in baseball in caught stealing percent, 10th in range factor, 14th in fielding percentage, 14th in passed balls and his individual catcher's ERA is higher than the team's overall ERA.

 

Pudge Rodriguez, Jorge Posada, Victor Martinez and Johnny Estrada are all having clear-cut superior seasons at the plate, while it could be argued that Jason Kendall, Paul Lo Duca and Javy Lopez have been just as good or better.

 

You see, Sox Brass looks at all these things, not just the fact that some people really like him. There is no justifying making him the highest paid catcher in the league when a superior long-term replacement is waiting at AAA for 3% of the money Varitek is requesting. I really don't give a good s*** what the media thinks, because they are all a bunch of blow-hards anyway. If Jason Varitek can be brought back at a reasonable price, fantastic. As it stands right now, he should be loooooooooong gone next season.

[Old Hoss]

As I'm sure all Red Sox fans feel, I just want what's best for the team. I like Varitek's grittiness for lack of a better word. One thing bothers me though (actually more than one); why is it when a Sox pitcher has a good game, he usually credits Varitek with calling a GREAT game but when a pitcher has a lousy game, people generally say, "Wallace needs to work with this guy"? Varitek usually gets a lot of credit but rarely takes any blame for any of the negative things that happen. Just an observation....

 

I've been a fan of the Sox for many, many, many years. I will be a fan until I go for the big dirt nap. One thing I have learned over the years is, don't become too obsessed with "the player" because he will never care about the team as much as you do.

 

I've seen where certain fans become so angry that a particular player was traded or let go as a FA that they dessert that team and follow the player. I was a big Bruce Hurst fan but when he left I didn't become a Padres follower. As it turned out, Hurst said leaving Boston was the worst move he ever made. Same with Mo Vaughn. This whole Red Sox Nation thing is unbelieveable and I'm happy to be a part of it. The Sox may never win it all in my lifetime, or yours for that matter. Although I would feel terrible about that, at least when I drop dead I'll know I remained loyal since day one.

 

Sorry for the ramble........