S5Dewey

Yep. Watch him. If he's on his next pitch is going to be that one that's down and away to a righty and usually out of the strike zone - but looks like a strike on the way in. That's why hitters flail away at it. But your're right in that if he can throw that second pitch for a strike he's "on" - and I'm right when I say that if he has that kind of control you're not going to hit him that day anyway. I don't know if you've noticed but he doesn't throw a lot of pitches that are in the strike zone. He depends on batters swinging at pitches that are out of the zone and he can get away with it because of his speed and that ball that breaks down and in to a lefty. Anyway, that's what I would do. I just hope other managers don't try it.

IMO the fact that the Sox had clinched had little to nothing to do with Kimbrel's performance. At least I hope it didn't. He's paid to get people out. Period. The secret there of course is what you said, if he's throwing a semblance of strikes - which he doesn't do some days. But a team needs to find out which Kimbrel is on the mound. When Kimbrel has good control his stock in trade is a pitch that's up and in followed by one that looks like it's going to be a strike but runs down and away from a RH hitter and into the "can't hit it" zone for a lefty. By the time it gets to the plate it's unhittable. I maintain taking two pitches is smart. The worst thing that's going to happen for the hitter is that he's going to be down 0-2 in the count, and if Kimbrel has that kind of control that day you're not going to hit him if they gave you 10 pitches. More realistically it's either going to be 1-1 or 2-0. If it's 1-1 you're on your own with two strikes left. Obviously if you're up 2-0 in the count you stand there until he proves he can throw a strike - which is iffy some days. I don't see the downside, and it's definitely worth any gamble given the fact that you're probably not going to hit him anyway.

Why?

Yep. I'm in too. I only wish this day had come sooner this year.

I hope you're right, but at the same time I'm also concerned about the potential fallout from a move like that. I have no 'evidence' that he doesn't want to pitch in non-save situations even though it looks that way, but there's no doubt in my mind that he did NOT want to leave the game last night - and that bothers me. #Koji for closer

No. It's more than the second time. He had repeated outings where he went to 3-ball counts on several hitters but finally did get them out - so it doesn't show up in the box score. But that's a tightrope a closer simply cannot walk.

And the even bigger problem is that if he were getting hit around consideration would be given to not having him close any more, but since his problem is plate location the FO seems to think it's appropriate to send him out there thinking that it'll better this time. History says it may not be.

No, no, no. Why can't you understand?? My problem isn't that he gives up runs. My problem is that he can't find the friggin' plate! I don't mind when players make contact with the ball (well, actually I do but not as much as when they draw walks) but when they get issued walks the defense doesn't even have a chance to make a play on the ball. His losing the game isn't the bigger problem with me. It's the WAY he lost the game - and the fact that his absolute loss of control pops up from time to time. I know he's going to be closing again, but I simply don't trust the guy to get outs. #Koji for closer

If Kimbrel doesn't believe that last night was a high pressure situation then he doesn't understand Red Sox vs. Yankees.

This goes into the intangibles and is something I agree with. I've admittedly not seen a lot of games played by the other teams in MLB this year but I've seen probably 125+ Sox games and in just about every game I see some leadership and/or mentoring by Papi. That's not to say that others on other teams may have been doing the same thing but Papi's clubhouse and dugout contributions combined with his on-field performance make me believe that regardless of what the voters say David Ortiz IS the MOST VALUABLE PLAYER to his team in baseball in 2016. And since the Sox have finished first in the toughest division in baseball he, by extension, is the most valuable player in baseball this year. JMO!

Noooobody knowwwwwws.... but it wasn't pretty. Remember the ST pics of his belly hanging over his belt?

OUCH! That one is going to leave a MARK! :D

He's NEVER close on 90% of his pitches! That's why he goes to so many 3-ball counts. I'll give you that his last 2-3 outings have been solid, but that's what scares me. We never know which Craig Kimbrel is going to show up.

I think I have mentioned once before that it would be ideal if we could clone Clay and have one of him pitch the first half of the season and the other Clay pitch the second half. I'd gladly pay $26M for that. The real-time problem of course is that we never know which half of the season he's going to be good in so we can't prepare for it. But I'll still take "Good Clay" for half a season and $13M.

I agree. That was a barb thrown toward another thread in which some posters were saying that relievers aren't all that important.

Agree. Completely. Frustrating. He had chances to break the game open, possibly even with a walk, and.. he swings at the first pitch? TWICE?? He gets a pass from me because of his age and inexperience - this time.

Agreed. Salty's starting was the victory of offense over defense and when push came to shove Farrell went with the defensive catcher. Maybe that's why I like defense. And Vazquez. But... that's off topic. I'm good with Leon behind the plate for the rest of this season providing he doesn't go into a defensive slump and forgets how to block balls in the dirt, etc., which probably won't happen.

No, it wasn't a blown save. Kimbrel gets credit for the loss. My issue with Kimbrel isn't the number of walks he's issued, it's something that doesn't show up in the box score - the number of 3-ball counts he's worked himself into. Sooner or later that lack of control comes back to bite you on the ass, and it did last night. The thing that really concerns me is that it could again at any moment. I'd like to make Koji the closer but I don't want Kimbrel walking people in the 8th inning either!

We're not exactly overburdened with offense at the catching position so it comes down to defense and who the pitchers are more comfortable with. IMO Vaz is still the best defensive catcher on the team but I'm still going home with the girl who got me to the dance. The pitchers know him, he knows them, and it appears that there's a certain amount of comfort there. However, remember, in 2013 Farrell didn't hesitate to make a catching change when Salty wasn't getting it done behind the plate, so anything can happen.

With all due respect I think you're missing the point here. Yes, anyone COULD have gone down (where would we have been without Pom AND Wright?) but Wright DID go down and Clay stepped in and did the job admirably, and arguably better than Wright would have. [Remember the last time Wright tried to pitch in wet weather?]

And I thought we'd decided that closers aren't all that important!

Well, yes, but the discussion here is Clay Buchholz. When Wright went down with the injury - and without another discussion about how stupid it was to have him running anyway - Clay stepped up and, frankly, probably did BETTER than Wright would have done. Without Clay we're starting ...who?, Henry Owens?...every 5th day?

I don't know how you guys do this. I can't even remember what I had for breakfast and it's no where near lunch time yet! But I think that may have proved Slash's point - that when a player does what we expect him to do we tend to forget it, but when he stinks the place up we have longer memories.

Ok, but tell me, how did you feel about the Pomeranz and Kimbrel deals? :D

Would that be Sampson Benintendi we're talking about?