moonslav59

So, should we fire his ass for playing it halfway and burning up the extended future without even getting good enough to win now (in the 3 year window)?

That's right. Maybe we can replace Moreland, Young and Nunez with some other ex-Sox FA studs.

Shows the JF has finally woken up from his stupor.

I respect that opinion, and I've never said it was illogical. I do think a big part of our extended future was sacrificed for a 3-4 year window. There's no stats or data to prove my position is right and yours is wrong. Heck, even looking back on all DD's moves 7-10 years from now might be inconclusive. I remember people thinking we should trade some of our currents young stars for Cole Hamels. Keeping them had value. Trading them would have had value too. I happen to think we went a little too far with trading away so many good prospects. I'm not calling for DD's removal. I'm happy with many of his moves. A couple of moves I hated have worked out well, so far. I've never pretended to be smarter than DD or any of our past GMs. I have my opinions like you do too. I know I come across as someone who thinks he's right and many others are wrong, but I'm really not like that. We might not ever hit "a cliff". There might not really be a 3 year window. Myself and others might prove to be very wrong just as you and others might be, if we do have serious struggles in 4-6 years. To me, it looks pretty clear we will have serious financial issues in 3-4 years. Nobody know how Henry will address this issue. Nobody knows if some of our lower first round draft picks will be surprisingly better than we ever hoped. Nobody knows if we will keep swinging and missing so badly on big FA signings or not. Hopefully, Price is not the next "miss". I actually thought he rated to be as good a gamble as ever on a big signing. We're both die-hard Sox fans who want us to win now, next year and for decades to come. We both have different opinions on what is the best way to do it. I'm giving DD a long look... just like I gave Ben (a longer one than many did).

You mean like former prospects Betts, Bogey, JBJ, Beni, and others? I guess we should have traded them all away for a better chance at winning in 2014 and 2015.

Yes, Devers is a long term asset, but he was also counted on to be our 3B for at least 2 of the 3 year window and to fill a void this team has had since Beltre left. That's the reason DD kept him and not Moncada, Kopech or others he traded away. I'm happy he made that choice, and not just because Devers has looked great for a week. I'm glad we didn't trade for a bat, if it would have meant dealing away someone like Devers.

Good one. That's always the answer, but the questions can still be asked, even if sometimes rhetorically.

With a possible bench of home-grown players taken from this group: Swihart Travis Marrero Lin Brentz A Tavarez J Barfield D Mars Only Leon, Young, Morelqand, Nunez and HRam are everyday players from other teams. 3 are free agents after this year.

True enough. Our only homegrown pitchers are... (in order of seniority on our 40 man roster) Workman Barnes N Ramirez B Johnson H Owens R Scott K Martin B Taylor H Velazquez A Maddox (We did trade for these guys while they were prospects or little experiences ML'ers: Wright Hembree ERod

By asking a question beginning with, "Why didn't you..."

We didn't trade Devers, because he is part of the "3 year window" plan. I'm not sure I'd call that restraint. Travis might be a 1B solution for year 2 and 3. Groome might be Pom's replacement for year 3. I suppose DD could have traded Mata, Houck and other far away prospects for a bat, but I doubt they would be enough for a difference maker.

I'd have tried to sign Scherzer instead of HRam + Pablo, but with the much greater SP'er FA class coming up the following year, I at least undersstood Ben's plan to build the offense that winter and the staff the next. Lets not forget Ben had a good pitching staff in 2012, and we still finished in last place. He inherited a team with serious flaws, was forced to take on Bobby V, and finished in last place right out of the gate. He didn't have the top prospects DD inherited to make blockbuster deals, even if he wanted to make them. I'm convinced he would have acquired at least one ace his next year, and that he'd have traded several top prospects as well, but we'll never know. His "5-Year plan", as I called it, we never given 5 years.

Question and blame.

Is it because you think they will hit better than Moustakas or just your aversion to moving Devers to 1B too early?

We'll never know. He might have looked bad had we called him up a month or two earlier, either by bad luck or some sort of idea that he wasn't quite ready. To me, Devers doing well out of the gate looks like management got it right. I remember wonder about what if we had called up Lynn and Rice early in 1974. To many what ifs to know anything.

I agree, but if the choice comes down to signing one of these 4 FAs, who do you want? Hosmer Duda Alonso Moustakas (30 HRs in 404 PAs this year, but not a big power hitter beforehand) I'm not saying these are our only choices, but go with the question.

I am, if he's all we got.

I remember bitching at some our past 3B coaches who continually ran our runners into outs at home plate. I don't see that anymore. We run when we are supposed to. I don't have any issue with us being slightly aggressive. I do have issues with seemingly endless instances of mental breakdowns (not just with base-running) by this team. I've been blaming JF for most of it, but ultimately, our players have to start being mindfully focused. Would it really surprise any of us, if we got ousted in the playoffs by a blunder? I can here some saying, "That's a fitting way for this team to lose."

Where did I say I wanted to move Devers to 1B? In fact, I said we should look for a 1B, DH or OF'er who can DH. I merely mentioned other top FA options out there this winter and how we could make them fit. Do you really think us signing Moustakas wouldn't solve the 3B issue as well, if maybe not better than keeping Devers there? I have said finding a top hitting 1Bman is easier and cheaper than finding a top 3Bman, so that's where I'm thinking an upgrade to our line-up will come. My second choice would be OF, as we are losing our 4th OF'er (Young) and have no systemic OF depth, with the idea that our newly acquired OF'er would play DH and HRam would be forced to play 1B FT--clearly a second option to finding a 1Bman. One problem though, does Duda, Hosmer or Alonso really give us a strong feeling of confidence that our 1B position will no longer be a negative? Can we afford to trade more top prospects to get a better 1Bman? Can we go into 2018 counting on Chavis to learn the position and win it by midseason? Can we count on Chavis and/or Brentz to be a great DH AND HRam to stay healthy playing 1B all season long? I do think signing Moustakas might work out better than Duda, Alonso or Hosmer. It's not too far-fetched as some scouts see Devers moving to 1B eventually anyways. I like Devers at 3B, and I'm not trying to move him off position, but looking at this winter's options, I'm not thrilled with our FA choices. What's your solution? I'm all ears.

You mean Grady Sizzlenomore, right?

I'm merely showing the "magnitude" of how many prospects were traded away recently. I was 100% on board with the Sale trade, and would be for two more like it. I was against the Kimbrel and Pom trades, but have said many times, the players we got were very good and that the trades look very good so far. Only injuries to Smith and Thornburg and a minor deal that didn't work as planned (A Hill) have appeared negative, so far. Even those trades may be forgotten if Devers makes us not remember Travis Shaw and C Smith can give us something to cheer about, as it's not hard for him to outplay Miley and Aro. I liked the Nunez & A Reed deals, too. I hardly ever like big signings like Price, but at the time I felt it was needed and wrote "a guy like Price doesn't come along that often". When looking at each deal independently, it's hard to fault DD, but when you look at the totality of his moves, it is clear his strategy has been to go for broke on a 3 year window (possibly 4) at the highly probable expense of the extended future. It is what it is, and I'm extremely hopeful we win a ring or 2 in the next 4 playoff cycles. If we don't, DD will be judged harshly by just about everyone, even if "the cliff" turns out to just a hill or a plain. That's the nature of the beast. (Note: "this pile of..." was once a top 3 farm system.)

Has there been a day in the last 2-3 weeks where Chavis, Brentz or Devers hasn't HR'd?

Makes me wonder, if we'd still have Devers, Groome, Mata and/or Chavis had this directive not been made.

And, that is why putting all of your marbles into a 3 year window at the highly probable expense of the following 3 years is what bothers some posters like Kimmi and myself. Even if these bold moves by DD made us the prohibitive favorites over the next 3 years (which they haven't), it's still largely a crap shoot. 3 crap shoots are better than none as we might not have even made the playoffs at all without some of his moves, and maybe "the cliff" is just a mirage, but DD has certainly gone for broke with this window.

I know this thread is about 2017, but with the rain out tonight, I got to thinking about 2018. My guess is we will reset the luxury tax this year and will be able to go over next year by enough to sign one significant FA. Chances are it will be a FA that can hit, and with Moreland and Young hitting free agency, the position most likely to be filled, IMO, would be 1B or DH. The DH could be someone who can play OF or 1B. (* has team option) Here's the list of 1Bmen: Yonder Alonso Lucas Duda Eric Hosmer John Jaso Adam Lind * Mitch Moreland Logan Morrison Mike Napoli Mark Reynolds Carlos Santana OF Dustin Ackley Nori Aoki Jose Bautista * Carlos Beltran Michael Brantley * Jay Bruce Melky Cabrera Lorenzo Cain Josh Collmenter Carl Crawford Coco Crisp Rajai Davis Jarrod Dyson Andre Ethier * Craig Gentry Carlos Gomez Carlos Gonzalez Curtis Granderson Franklin Gutierrez Matt Holliday Austin Jackson Jon Jay Desmond Jennings Hyun-Soo Kim J.D. Martinez Cameron Maybin Andrew McCutchen * Daniel Nava Colby Rasmus Ben Revere Michael Saunders * Seth Smith Ichiro Suzuki Justin Upton * Melvin Upton Jayson Werth Chris B. Young Big Names at Other Positions: IF/OF Eduardo Nunez SS Zach Cozart (move Bogey?) 3B Mike Moustakas (move Devers to 1B?) C Alex Avila C Jon Lucroy (having a bad year) SP Yu Darvish SP Alex Cobb SP Johnny Cueto * SP Lance Lynn SP Michael Pineda Possible in-house solutions: 1B (Moreland): Sam Travis, Michael Chavis (midseason) DH (Moreland>HRam to 1B): Michael Chavis, Bryce Brentz 4th OF (Young): Bryce Brentz UT IF (Nunez): Brock Holt, Marco Hernandez, T-W Lin, Deven Marrero