moonslav59

He wasn't a closer, so that hurts when comparing, but to me, the numbers that count the most are WHIP or OPS against and K rate/ BB rate (I like K/BB that covers both) show them very close. In my previous comp, I left off the first years of both and took away Uehara's last year. Here are their full career numbers: You said the rest of Koji's career, he was "good," but I think he was much more than good for a long time (7 years). OPS Against .485 Kim (.476 Late & Close) .588 Koji (.566 Late & Close) WHIP 0.890 Koji 0.920 Kim K/BB 7.33 Koji 4.23 Kim K/9 14.7 Kim 10.7 Koji BB/9 1.5 Koji 3.5 Kim ERA+ 211 Kim 162 Koji Post Season WHIP- K/9 0.833- 10.5 1.258- 2.1 Save% 91% Kim (333/372) 84% (95/113) Koji IS% 19% (15/77) 26% (27/105) I think it's closer than it might seem. I have no beef with anyone saying Kimbrel is better, but it's close, and I think Uehara was more than just good outside of 2013.

Vaz did very well in pitch framing last year, too. Leon was better, but Vaz was top 10 out of the 60 or so listed.

I get that, but I'm asking if you add value to a catcher who does that more than the average catcher does?

...and some of these sample sizes are huge.

Yes, so if fangraphs gives none of this value to the catcher, then could their numbers be misleading?

He was off the charts in 2013, but he had several excellent years. WHIP- K/BB Uehara (7 nice years, including 1 great one!) 0.96- 11.0 ('10) 0.72- 9.44 ('11) 0.64- 14.3 ('12) 0.57- 11.2 ('13) 0.92- 10.0 ('14) 0.92- 5.22 ('15) 0.96- 5.73 ('16) Kimbrel (8 nice years including 2 great ones) 1.04- 3.97 ('11) 0.65- 8.29 ('12) 0.88- 4.90 ('13) 0.91- 3.65 ('14) 1.05- 3.95 ('15) 1.09- 2.77 ('16) 0.68- 9.00 ('17) 1.00- 3.10 ('18) Koji 7 seasons blows Kimbrel 8 seasons away on K/BB K/BB 8.78 Koji 4.38 Kimbrel WHIP is closer but still clearly in Koji's favor 0.795 Koji 0.908 Kimbrel For reference sake... Mo Rivera from 1999-2012- his best stretch: 0.942 WHIP 4.74 K/BB Let's not shortchange Koji just because his one great year was so fantastic. He had a nice streak before and afterwards: 2010-2012: 0.772- 10.76 2014-2016 0.930-6.79 Amazing numbers without 2013.

It's hard to build comfort levels with RP'ers you catch only for a few batters scattered over a season. The Sox use personal caddies for most of their starters, so there is ample time to build a relationship.

Yes, but they don't factor in anything related to CERA, and I don't think they count pitch-framing either.

Yes, and one problem with CERA is that some use it to compare catchers from different teams- not good. Also, when you have personal caddies like the Sox do, the sample sizes are small or nil for the other catchers. On small sample sizes, yes, they are close to useless, unless one catcher seems to do better than the other(s) for a vast majority of the small sample size pitchers on their team. (Year after year)

I agree, and he seems best suited to catch 3 of the 5 starters not named Sale or Price-- maybe 100+ games a year.

I have no evidence to back this up, but I think his pitch blocking skills got worse when he was forced to play more, but yes, his hitting went from bad to horrible. He started playing more when July came around. On June 30th, he had a .706 OPS. He had a .413 OPS afterwards. I know: one season- one small sample size, but he looked beat to me by season's end.

His demands mean nothing, if nobody comes near them.

True. My only concern is Leon having to catch everyday, if Vaz goes down. I think he has endurance issues and gets burnt out when having to catch a lot in a short time.

Maybe because they have a comfort level with their catchers and don't want to risk a comfort-learning curve that lasts longer than hoped for. Maybe they do like Vaz or Leon better than their starting or back-up catcher but are not willing to give up much for that "upgrade." Maybe they think Vaz is overpaid, which would imply my set value is much higher than theirs. I've said I could be wrong. We basically got Leon from the Nats for cash, and he's not really improved since then, so I realize there is plenty of evidence that supports those who feel he is easily replaceable. I like what our catchers do with our staff. I don't think it was a fluke our pen has "over performed" for 2 straight years, that Porcello won a Cy Young, that ERod has come of age (when healthy), that Price has re-invented himself, that Eovaldi just earned a fat contract after a short time with us, and even Sale has done better than ever. I'm fine with being in a minority and am not trying to say anyone who disagrees with me is dumb or uninformed. The know vs the unknown argument is a good one.

Certainly, DFA'ing is an option, but only if nobody wants him in a trade. Also, how much do we save by DFA'ing him and replacing him with Lin at the minimum ML salary? $910K -$555K = $355K savings Maybe that's helpful, if we are going to try and stay $1 under the $40M line, but it might not matter as much. It also might depend on how much DD & Co value Swihart over Centaro. If one of our catchers gets hurt, we may regret cutting Swihart. (I wouldn't.)

Some GMs probably think highly of Vaz and Leon, but trading Swihart would probably only net us a single A player with a bit of promise. I'm not suggesting we get anything great for Swihart. I'm thinking he might be a useful throw-in to a bigger trade, or not. If no other GMs value Vaz or Leon, it doesn't change my opinion of them all that much. Sale and Price are very happy with Sale. Porcello and Eovaldi seem happy with Vaz. ERod and most of the pen seem to not care all that much.

I guess you have more faith in Swihart than I do. To me, he's a big drop off from Leon and Vaz, and if we traded Vaz, he'd probably catch 50-70 games. I can't see Leon lasting much over 100 games. If we traded Leon, maybe we could limit Swihart to 30-40 games, but are we getting a good RP'er for Leon? I think not, so just keep 'em both.

Most people that have played serious baseball know the value catcher defense and pitcher -catcher comfort. Even some who never played can see how important it is. I understand, I may place too much value on catcher intangibles, and I certainly place more value than some here, and I'm fine with that. Sometimes, I feel like I can't win. At times, I'm accused of being too stat geeky enough to understand the nuances or areas of the game not captured by data. Here's an area I feel strongly about with very little to no significant data available to back myself up, and I still can't win. (Not that winning is what I'm here for) I know I sometimes say things in ways that sound authoritarian or matter of factly, when there are other sides to the issue and valid arguments against my positions. It might help, if I wrote, "in my opinion..." more often, but I guess I just assume everything everyone says is just an opinion. I know there are a heck of a lot of people who know more about this great game of baseball than I do, and I'm sure some are right here on this site... many of whom I'm sure I have disagreed with from time to time. All this being said, I'd love to have a solid catcher that could also hit, or at least hit better than ours did last year, but I still think ours are a net plus- not great, but a little better than average overall.

And, some call us condescending.

I really don't have as much faith in ST'ing as you do. We'll have 3 catchers or more splitting time, and they often will be facing scrubs and wanna-bees. Swihart could go 15 for 20, and it wouldn't change my opinion. "Defend well enough" is a subjective term. IMO, Swihart has a very very long way to go on defense to come close to Leon, particularly Leon with Sale & Price. How much better would Swihart have to hit, if he caused the pitchers he caught to have an ERA 0.25 higher than had they been with Leon? How about 0.50? 0.75 or more? It's too risky for my liking. Even the drop off from Leon to Vaz with Sale and Price is scary enough. BTW, do you have a link where anyone important said Swihart's D improved last year?

They passed on Ockimey as a mandated 25 man roster player. They may like him as a project for future possibilities. I'd offer Velazquez or Johnson. They may want Swihart, if they trade Realmuto. I'd probably trade Chavis straight up for Conley, but I'd try to make it Chavis & Swihart for Conley & Guerrero. (I'd probably settle on Dalbec, if they insisted.) I'm not an expert on Conley. I'm just looking at his numbers, and he looks promising. I trust Sox management to know more than I do about his chances of helping in 2019.

He did let up an HR, and his K/9 was only 4.2, but his 1.15 WHIP was acceptable.

I was thinking Adam Conley. Maybe we can trade Velazquez, Ockimey and Swihart for Conley (or maybe Conley & Guerrero).

I agree 100%. Miami has some nice RP'ers, so I can't help but think (hope) we can expand the deal and get someone who can actually help the pen. It doesn't have to be a closer, but we need someone to fill in to the roles Barnes and Brasier had as they move to newer more important roles. Miami might be the team most likely to want prospects, even farther away ones, than any other team.

But according to you, Swihart is more part of the problem with MLB-caliber catching than part of the solution. Yes, and I said the hope was he'd improve. It wouldn't take much improvement for Swihart to go from maybe the 60th best catcher out of maybe 70 to 40th or 50th best- making him better than some teams' back-up catcher and maybe a little sought after. I've never said I expect much in trade for Swihart. If Pedroia can’t go, they might keep Swihart. But I think in that case, a capable backup SS or backup OF is probably more important to this team than a third catcher who can also play the corners in a pinch. A back up SS/OF would be ideal. (Lin?). Also at one point this off-season, Cora reportedly wanted a defensive 3b on the roster. Now as Cora is likely aware of the existence of both Holt and Nunez, he presumably wants someone else. I'd rather have Lin than Swihart on my 25 man roster, hence my mantra on trading Swihart. I’d like to see them deal Swihart for a RP, but I wonder what they can get (Tayron Guerrero?). I almost think any decent reliever you add Swihart to the package for can probably be had for the same package without him. If the Sox want a defensive SS/3b other than Lin, they might use him to pry someone like Miguel Rojas or JT Riddle out of Miami. It depends if any team thinks Swihart is good enough to make their 25 man roster. If not, he adds no value, since he is out of options.