moonslav59

It does happen, but I agree, we won't get much of anything for Porcello, even if he has 3 good games before the deadline.

While the 4 guys I mentioned are getting paid more than Chapman, Miller, Beltran, McCann & Nova were, I think you are undervaluing their stock.

You really think Sale's stock has slipped that much? Have you seen what some pitchers with bigger health issues and spottier skill sets have been getting? You think Sale would only get $9M a year as a FA, right now? I'm hoping that was just hyperbole.

I'm not for a fire sale, at least right now, but in theory, we could trade JD, Sale, JBJ and Betts, if we know we are not going to outbid everyone for him after 2020. We could get a lot for that 2 or 3 from that group and still have a pretty decent core of players- some young and cheap to build around and try to get back to competitiveness after one reset year and maybe even a year where we get a top 10 draft pick by sucking in 2020.

Many seasons can be viewed in hindsight like you are looking now. Heck, some fans thought we had little chance last year, even after our great start and record breaking win season. I think this team is too good pack it all in, and trading everyone would not get us under the tax for this year, so you're talking about at least 1.5 years of giving up. To me, we could trade Porcello and Moreland and barely notice. We won't get squat for them, so I'm not sure how that helps us going forward. I guess we might get lucky with a prospect we get back, but I wouldn't count on it. If we look lethargic in late July, I'd think about trading JD, JBJ and maybe Sale, but I seriously doubt we look crappy in 3 weeks.

If we are going to have a fire sale, it would be with 2021 and beyond in mind. It would be to allow us to reset the tax this winter and the 2020 season and try to be back in the ring hunt mode by 2021. Why would we trade ERod, who is making half our bid 3 starters' salaries? He's under team control through 2021. We would trade all the free-agents-to be for nothing, if we could save money or get a single A prospect. That's Porcello, Moreland, Pearce, Nunez, and Holt. (Some are untradable.) The next guys we look at would be the ones that are FAs after 2020: JBJ, Wright & Workman... Betts (doubt we trade Mookie). Next, we may look to trade JD, Price or Sale, if we need to deal one to reset the tax, but all 3 could be hear until 2022 (Sale 2023), so they might be ones we keep for the next push. We'd keep Beni, Devers, Vaz and Chavis as long term, lower cost players for 2021 and beyond. I doubt we'd even consider trading ERod or Beni. I'm not on board with the fire sale idea, but that could change in a couple weeks. I think this team is too good to punt mid season. We've already spent way over the tax limit and have a team very close to the 2018 one that blew our minds. It's too good a team to blow up right now. It is showing signs of decline, but I'd wait to this winter or the next trade deadline to seriously consider a blow-up plan. This team is NOT the 2019 Celtics. We have no Kyries on this team. Back-to-back, BABY!

They are pretending. By the end of July, they will be selling. If they do buy, it won't be for an expensive rental.

All true, but it's not the only way to be competitive more years than not. The system has made it much harder for big spenders that win more than the lose every year, but spending large will always keep you contending or at least convincing your fans you can win each year. Having at least one "cliff year" is probably the best way to rebuild. Match that year up with a controlled firesale and budget reset, and I think we can get back to or near the top in 1-2 years. The issue, now is that we have a damn good roster right now, and it's hard to choose this summer as the year to sell and next winter as the reset time. My guess is we wait until 2020 and reset for the 2021 season. The next 3 weeks might change my mind to move things up a year. Trading big contracts this summer and winter, resetting in 2020 and then extending Betts for 2021 and beyond might work better.

Who have we signed, and who is the best guy still unsigned?

I actually said, "if he can stay healthy," and he was healthy enough last October.

Plus, dealing the only cost-controlled SP'er we have makes no sense.

I think Eovaldi has a good chance of being a top closer, if he can stay healthy. Being able to go 2 innings could be huge, too. I'd like to see us trade for a closer and use Eovaldi as Andrew Miller used to be used, but I'm fine with trying Eovaldi first and getting a 5th starter.

I don't disagree with anything here, perhaps a first! We need pen help. We have to ride our big 3-4 starters to the end. I will say, our record in Sale's starts should be 9-9 or 10-8 not 6-12. Like it or not, many of our losses have been Sale, ERod and even Price's fault. Here's a look starter by starter: Sale: 6-12 in his starts Runs allowed in 12 losses: 7, 1, 5 (4IP), 4, 2, 4, 2, 4, 4, 1, 5, 5 If you give him a win in the 1, 1 and 2 games we go 9-9 (Note: we also won one game he let up 4 runs in 5 IP). ERod: 13-5 in his starts: Runs allowed in losses: 6, 6, 6, 5, 2. Maybe we could be 14-4, but here are some run numbers in his wins: 4 in 4.2 IP, 5 in 6 IP and 5 in 6.1 IP, so maybe 12-6 is more likely. Price: 9-7 in his starts: Runs allowed in losses: 4, 4, 2, 3, 0 in 0.2 IP, 0, 1. We won the game he let up 6 ER in 1.1 IP. It's easy to see his record as maybe rightfully being 12-4 in his starts. With the "big 3" starting, we are 28-24 but could be maybe 33-19. Porcello has been a major problem, but he did have a nice 12 game run between his horrible start and horrible recent few starts. Porcello: 10-8 in his starts. Runs allowed in losses: 9, 7, 3 in 4 IP, 2, 5, 4, 5, 6 Maybe we could be 11-7 in his starts, but we also have wins with this: 5 in 6.2 IP and 6 in 5.2. More reasonably, we should be 9-9 in his starts. 38-32 with the BIG FOUR 5th Starter: 11-9 is shocking. While Porcello and our 5th starters are clearly weaknesses, right now, it's hard to blame our record on them. Going 21-17 with your 4-5 slot pitchers is every team's dream. Past performances are not predictors of future output, and I agree our pen and 5 slot starter are our top trade priority, but they are not the only reason we are so far behind the Yanks and on the outside looking in on the WC race right now. Our big 3 starters should have more wins- some because of blown saves, but also some because they have had sucky games too often.

Thanks. I thought Eovaldi was going to be ready sooner than the end of July. Johnson could be near ready, but I haven't seen him in any rehab games.

Yes, I agree, we need our big 4 starters to do well, or we have little chance of making a strong run at a ring this year. I'm not an expert on other teams' talent, but there are probably 28 teams with a better closer than us, and half will be sellers. We don't need a great closer. If we can improve our save% from 50% to 75% we'd be much better off. Plus, getting a closer would move our best RP'ers down a notch and remove the worst from the roster. If we can add Eovaldi to the mix in an Andrew Miller type role, we'd move the others down another notch and rop another one off the 25 man roster. We may even be able to go with a 7 man pen for a while. Chances are, we don't get a closer. We seemed locked in on the Eovaldi as closer idea and will probably find a 5th starter and move Velazquez or Johnson into the long relief role.

Updated Game by Game Pen vs Starter Numbers: Game 83: L 17-13 NYY: Porcello 6/0.1- Pen 11/8.2 (SP loss and -2/ Pen -2) Game 84: L 12-8 NYY: ERod 2/5.1- Pen 9/3.2 (RP loss and +2 SP/ Pen-2) Game 85: W 10-6 TOR: Price 2/6.0- Pen 4/3 (SP win and +2/ Pen -2) Game 86: L 6-3 TOR: Sale 5/5.2- Pen 1/2.1 (SP loss and -2/ Pen 0) Game 87: W 8-7 TOR: Velaz 3/2.1- Pen 4/6.2 (Pen win and -2/ SP -1) Game 88: W 9-6 DET: ERod 1/5.0- Pen 3/4 (SP win and +2/ Pen -2) Game 89: W 10-6 DET: Porce 6/5.2- Pen 0/3.1 (RP win and +2/SP -2) Game 90: W 6-3 DET: Price 1/5.0- Pen 2/4 (SP win and +2/Pen 0) By Wins and Losses Responsibility Game by Game (who did better in wins or worse in losses): Starters 19-24 (-5) Relievers 30-17 (+13) Scoring System (+2, +1, 0, -1, -2) SP +21 RP +38

Nobody is saying our pen has been good. We can all agree they have sucked, recently, but blown saves is not the only stat that matters. It is certainly important, and I'm not trying to minimize the effect so many blown saves can have on the standings and team psyche. It sucks bigtime! That being said, our pen has been more responsible for the wins we have gotten than the starters, and they have lost less games for us than our starters. I did a game by game study, and it is not even a close call. Here is just a look at our first 82 games + 2 for any SP'er or Pen game where their ERA is 3.00 or less for 5 or more innings, 2.00 for 4 or less innings, 1.00 for 3 or less innings or 0.00 for 2 or less innings +1 for any SP'er or Pen game where their ERA is 3.00 or less for 4.2 or less innings. 0 for any game where their ERA is between 3.01 and 4.50. -1 for any game where their ERA is between 4.51 and 6.00. -2 for any game over 6.01 Game number, W or L, score, SP'er ER/IP- Pen ER/IP (score) 1. L 12-4 Sale 7/3- Pen 4/5 (S-2/R -2) 2. W 7-6 Eovaldi 6/5- Pen 0/4 (S-2/R+2) 3. L 6-5 ERod 5/4.1- Pen 0/3.2 (S-2/R+2) 4. L 10-8 Porcello 4/2.2- Pen 1/5.1 (S-2/R+2) 5. L 6-0 Price 4/6- Pen 2/2 (S-2/R-2) 6. L 1-0 Sale 1/6- Pen 0/2 (S+2/R+2) 7. W 6-3 Eovaldi 3/5- Pen 0/4 (S-1/R+2) 8. L 7-3 ERod 6/3.2- Pen 1/4.1 (S-2/R +2) 9. L 15-8 Porcello 7/4.2- Pen 8/3.1 (S-2/R-2) 10. W 5-4 Price 4/6- Pen 1/3 (S-1/R+1) Sub Total: SP -14/ RP +7 11. W 1-0 Velaz 0/3- Pen 0/6 (S+2/R+2) 12. L 7-5 Sale 5/4- Pen 2/5 (S-2/R+2) 13. W 7-6 Eovaldi 5/5- Pen 1/4 (S-2/R+2) 14. W 6-4 ERod 2/6.2- Pen 2/2.1 (S+2/-2) 15. L 9-5 Porcello 3/4- Pen 4/5 (S-2/R-2) 16. W 4-0 Price 0/7- Pen 0/2 (S+2/R+2) 17. L 8-1 Velaz 1/3- Pen 7/6 (S+1*/R-2) 18. L 8-0 Sale 4/5- Pen 4/3 (S-2/R-2) 19. L 5-3 Eovaldi 0/6- Pen 4/2 (S+2/R-2) 20. W 6-4 ERod 3/5.1- Pen 0/3.2 (S-1/R+2) Sub Total: SP +0/ RP +0 21. W 6-5 Porcello 2/5.2- Pen 3/3.1 (S+0/R-2) 22. W 4-3 Price 2/5- Pen 1/6 (S+2/R+2) 23. L 7-4 Sale 2/5- Pen 5/4 (S+2/R-2) 24. L 4-2 Velaz 3/3.1- Pen 1/5.9 (S-2/R+2) 25. W 11-4 ERod 1/6- Pen 3/3 (S+2/R-2) 26. W 7-2 Porcello 3/6- Pen 0/3 (S+0/R+2) 27. L 2-1 Price 2/6- Pen 0/3 (S+2/S+2) 28. L 5-2 Sale 2/7(2 unearned)- Pen 1/2 (S+2/R+0) 29. W 9-4 ERod 4/4.2- Pen 0/4.1 (S-2/R+2) 30. W 5-1 Porcello 0/8- Pen 1/1 (S+2/R-2) Sub Total: SP +8/ RP +2 31. W 7-3 Velaz 1/2- Pen 2/7 (S-2/R+2) 32. L 6-4 Price 3/6- Pen 2/2.1 (1 unearned) (S+0/R-2) 33. W 6-1 Sale 0/6- Pen 1/3 (S+2/R+1) 34. W 15-2 ERod 1/6- Pen 1/3 (S+2/R+1) 35. W 9-2 Porcello 2/6- Pen 0/3(S+2/R+2) 36. L 4-1 Smith 4/3.1- Pen 0/4.2 (S-2/R+2) 37. W 8-5 Velaz 2/3- Pen 3/7 (S-2/R+0) 38. W 2-1 Sale 1/8- Pen 0/4 (S+2/R+2) 39. W 14-1 ERod 0/7- Pen 1/2 (S+2/R+0) 40. W 9-5 Porcello 4/6.2- Pen 1/2.2 (S-1/R+0) Sub Total: SP+7/RP +8 41. W 11-2 Velz 2/5- Pen 0/4 (S+2/R+2) 42. L 5-4 Sale 2/7- Pen 3/4 (S+2/R-2) 43. W 6-5 ERod 5/6- Pen 0/4 (S-2/R+2) 44. L 3-1 Porcello 2/7 - Pen 0/2 (S+2/R+2) 45. L 7-3 Velaz 5/0.1 -Pen 2/8.2 (S-2/R+2) 46. W 4-3 Sale 3/5.1- Pen 0/3.2 (S+0/R+2) 47. W 12-2 Price 0/5 (2 unearned)- Pen 0/4 (S+2/R+2) 48. L 10-3 ERod 6/5- Pen 4/3 (S-2/R-2) 49. W 6-5 Porcello 1/6- Pen 4/7 (S+2/R+0) 50. W 8-2 Weber 1/6- Pen 1/3 (S+2/R+1) Sub Total: SP +6/ RP +9 51. L 4-3 Sale 2/6- Pen 0/2 (S+2/R+2) 52. L 4-3 Price 0/0.2- Pen 4/7.1 (S+0*/R+1) 53. W 4-1 ERod 1/6- Pen 0/3 (S+2/R+2) 54. W 12-5 Porcello 3/6.2 2 unearned- Pen 0/2.1 (S+1/R+2) 55. L 7-5 Price 0/6- Pen 7/3 (S+2/R-2) 56. L 14-9 Weber 7/4- Pen 7/5(S-2/R-2) 57. L 4-1 Sale 4/6- Pen 0/2 (S+0/R+2) 58. L 5-3 Porcello 5/4.2- Pen 0/3.1 (S-2/R+2) 59. W 8-5 Price 2/6.1- Pen 3/2.2 (S+2/R-2) 60: W8-3 KCR: ERod 2/5.2 2/ RP 1/3.1 1 (S+2/R+1) Sub Total: SP +7/ RP +6 61: W 8-0 KCR: Sale 0/9.0 (S+3**) 62: W 7-5 KCR: Weber 2/1.1- Pen: 3/7.2 IP 3 (S-2/R+1) 63: L 5-1 TBR: Porcello 4/6 IP- Pen 1/3.0 (S+0/R+1) 64: L 9-2 TBR: Josh Smith 4/4.0 IP- Pen 4/5.0 IP (S-2/R-2) 65: W 5-1 TBR: Price 1/6.0 IP-Pen 0/3.0 (S+2/R+2) 66: L 6-1 TBR: ERod 4/5.2- Pen 2/4.1 (S-2/R+0) 67: L 4-3 TEX: Sale 0/7.0- Pen 3/4.0 (S+2/R-2) 68: L 9-5 TEX: DHerm 3/3- Pen 5/6.0 (S-2/R-2) 69: W 4-3 TEX: Porcello 2/6.2-Pen 0/2.1 (S+2/R+2) 70: W 7-6 TEX: Price 6/1.1- Pen 0/7.9 (S-2/R+3**) Sub Total: SP -1/ RP +3 71: W 13-2 BAL: ERod 1/7- Pen 1/2.0 (S+2/R+0) 72: W 7-2 BAL: Sale 2/6.0- Pen 0/2.0 (S+2/R+2) 73: W 8-6 BAL in 10: Johnson 1/3.0 IP- Pen 3/7.0 (S+1/R+1) 74: W 2-0 MN: Porcell 0/7- Pen 0/2.0 (S+2/R+2) 75: L 4-3 MN (17 inn): Price 1/5.0- Pen 3/11.1 (S+2/R+2) 76: W 9-4 MN: ERod 4/7- Pen 0/2.0 (S+0/R+2) 77. W 7-5 TOR: Sale 3/5.0- (1 unearned)/ Pen 1/5.0 (S+0/R+2) 78: L 8-7 TOR: Johnson 0/5.0- Pen 7/4.0 (S+2/R-3**) 79: L 6-1 TOR: Porcello 5/6.0- Pen 1/3.0 (S-2/R+1) 80: W6-5 CWS: ERod 5/6.0- Pen 0/3.0 (S-2/R+2) Sub Total: SP +7/ RP +11 81: W6-3 CWS: Price 2/6.0- Pen 0/3.0 (S+2/R+2) 82: L 8-7 CWS: Sale 5/6.0-Pen 3/3.0 (S-2/R-2) The pen has never been minus in any 10 game segment. The season totals after 82 games: SP +20 RP +46 The gap has closed since game 82, but not by all that much.

Anybody know when these guys are due back? Eovaldi? Moreland? Pearce? Johnson?

162 games will likely remain, due to the money lost by shortening the season. If they can shorten the game to 2:00 or 2:15, it may be enough. I'm not sure mega offense is needed to bring in young fans, but my guess is it wouldn't hurt (although it may drive away old time purists). Pitch clock Robo Umps (cuts down complaining) Shorten review delay times Maybe... Force RP'ers to face 2-3 batters. 3rd foul after 2 strikes is a K. Stop massive expanded September rosters.

As with all major changes in MLB, it is slow. They still have not made the DH a rule in both leagues. I did not say they would be successful in capturing kids hearts, but I do think the talk of shortening the game will eventually lead to action, especially when attendance starts falling rapidly as our generation dies off. We will have an enforced pitch clock within the next few years. We will likely have rules on RP'er usage and a restricted pen size in September. This may not be enough to shorten the game enough to draw in more younger fans, but I'm pretty sure MLB is as dumb as they seem to be right now.

Does that free up enough money to sign another guy not expected to be signed?

Trading for a closer is not a reasonable alternative? Striking gold like we did with the 2018 Eovaldi is not a possibility? We even had two decent RP'ers in our own system we never knew we had: Beeks and Buttrey. Is there no chance we have one like them, now? I realize the odds are long on the last point, and getting lucky by trade is not easy, but the one thing DD has been very good at is finding gems in mid season trades. He hasn't really had a Gagne moment. I'm trying to stay optimistic, but it isn't easy. The next 3 weeks will be telling.

There is a chance a 2 hour 15 minute, highly offensive game can capture kids hearts. I think that is the gamble we are headed towards.

We don't have a "MIggy contract". We still have some solid, low-cost players like Devers, Beni, ERod & maybe Chavis. Many feel we underpaid Bogey & Sale. Many of our big contracts are up in 1-3 years. It's not quite as bad as Detroit or Fla, but there are certainly big financial and farm system issues to deal with that have near impossible ways to fix in today's systems. I agree with your mediocrity position. Never getting any top draft picks by having a real "cliff" year or two makes it almost impossible to ever rebuild the farm to decency, let alone one of the best like we had back in the early to mid 2000's and the Betts-Bogey-Bradley era. On the bright side, does it really look like major losses, based on how these guys are doing this year and the fact that we are still in the playoff race, to lose: Porcello Moreland Pearce Nunez Holt Thornburg I'm not so sure 2020is the year we suffer greatly. We may even end up trading JBJ and bringing in a low-cost, defensive CF'er that hits a consistent .690-.720 and hardly miss a beat. (Maybe?) We may see Pedey retire and save us some bucks, but that is unlikely. If JD leaves, we can reset, but we won't be true contenders without him, and we won't be a last place team either and be able to draft the next Beni with the 7th pick. Only Sale and Bogey are under contract until 2023. Only Eovaldi, Price and Vaz until 2022. We have the flexibility to totally reset and be bad for one year, if we want. I guess Sale could become our "Miggy," but I still have faith. I have no faith our farm can be rebuilt to top 10 or even 15 without a firesale at some point in the next 2 years. If we match that up with a one time budget reset and one "bad year" we may be able to get back to the top in a short time. It will take at least a couple big decisions by Henry & DD.

I was talking about 2019. We may only need to find a guy like the 2018 Eovaldi (for Beeks) to make a strong run this year. While I admit we got a bit lucky with Nate's playoff performance, we may not have to empty the farm to get much better at the deadline. I have been one to recognize the trouble we will be in starting in 2020 or 2021, even if we are spending up to the second limit each of those years. No convincing needed here.