moonslav59

So, we got lucky?

So, it was a 100% certainty that Pivetta was going to give a brilliant long relief effort? Again, I would not call Cora lucky, but I can understand how someone can look at the names in our pen and wonder how they did so well without some luck being involved. There were Sox fans screaming at Cora for even pitching Robles after his bas start with us. Same with using Richards in high leverage situations for quite a while. Some questioned why we even promoted Brasier, and soon he was our go-to guy. I'm not sure the word "absolutely" is the best, but I do think Cora is masterful at getting the best out of just about everyone. Every move does not work out, and in hindsight we always heard about them. I guess one could argue those times were "bad luck." LOL. Again, I'm agreeing with you. I don't think our pen or our team is "lucky." We make our own luck, and Cora is the best I have seen at getting players to be put in spots where they are most likely to succeed. Then, maybe some luck takes over. Over the long haul, the luck should even out and the choices a manger makes is what mattered.

I actually liked Price. I knew we paid too much, but at the time I said something like, "He is the kind of pitcher you wait years for." I liked his competitive nature. He always seemed to pitch well versus us. I don't think he had any attitude issues or work ethic issues, so it didn't really bother me all that much, when he went out hurt or underperformed my own expectations, which I admit were high. But as I said, I thought we overpaid to begin with and was for the signings, so I was okay with it. I liked him but still think he did not earn that amount of money. We basically paid him $38M x 4 years. Papi made a third of that most of his ring years, here.

Nuff said!

Well said, and if anyone has the psyche to pull it all together, I'd say it would be Sale. (I'd still like E-O tonight.)

I'm sure someone said something similar about Vaz before his big hit.

I was talking about his last 3-4 games, about when he started looking crappy. 2021 First 6 starts: 2.40 ERA 31K/30 IP Last 3 starts: 4.97 ERA 21K/12.2 IP Playoff Start: 45.00 ERA 2K/1IP My point was about it being strange that at the time he started sucking, he also started K'ing batters at twice the rate of his first 6 starts. You don't find that strange? Another weird factoid about Sale was in 2018. He missed some time before his start in AUG and then K'd 12 in 5 IP that game. Then, he missed more time. That was his highest K/IP game of the season.

Thanks for pointing that out. I could have sworn I heard "starter" somewhere. I think there was a Globe article.

Personally, I don't think it is luck, but I won't be shocked if Pivetta does not do well, next time. I think many Sox fans felt we were pushing our luck with Richards as the closer/key set up man for a while, then Brasier & Robles. I think Cora know how to pick spots where certain pitchers are best suited to succeed.

I found this... https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2021/04/garrett-whitlock-boston-red-sox-rookie-sensation-has-pitched-just-once-in-past-nine-days-team-wants-him-stretched-out-for-two-three-inning-relief-outings.html

First, am I confusing you with someone else who wants us to bring Schwarber back? We also need a utility infielder. Last year, we paid $3M and struck out with Marwin. Can we get Iggy back at $3M? If Bloom has $40M to spend, next winter, he'll have about $20M left, if he signs those two. That's enough to sign 4-5 RP'ers without going huge on anyone, but that's still a bigger chunk spent on the pen than I would prefer. Look, I'm not saying, nor have I ever said, making Houck AND Whitlock starters makes no sense. Of course, it is a good plan with a lot of merit and supporting arguments. The Rays have done a pretty good job building a pen on a low budget, but Bloom did not exactly go low-balling on the pen. He traded for Ottavino ($8.9M). He extended Barnes. He signed Andriese and Sawamura. He moved a $10M and a $6M starter to the pen. One worked for a while. He added 31 pitchers who pitched in relief in the past 2 seasons to the 8 that were already here. That's 39 RP'er in about 220 games. There was a lot of flux, trial and error, and I'm still not sure who our closer is (Whitlock replacing Brasier and Robles?) I can understand your position, and no we should not have to spend large on the pen, but if we have to fill the top 3 slots, like it looks like we need to do, it should cost more than last winter, where he added a #2 (Ottavino) and #6 (Andriese) and a #7 (Sawamura). I'm not sure why keeping Houck or Whitlock in the pen, and signing a SP'er (or bring back ERod) is viewed as any worse a plan than yours. Am I missing something?

I think right when Perez was pitching like our ace (end of May?)

I certainly understand that position, especially since he played a big part in the 2018 playoffs. I won't argue we could have or should have won without him, because I'm pretty sure we needed him, but $150M is a boat load of cash, and if we are counting the playoffs, then 2016 counts, too. I will say, I was happy we dumped half his salary and was not sad to see him go, which of course are entirely different things.

Good stuff. I still wonder why he's getting more K's without a good change up. Can he correct it? Can he pitch well enough without the change up?

Most wins in 2021 107 SFG OUT 106 LAD 100 TBR OUT 95 MIL OUT 95 HOU 93 CWS OUT 92 NYY OUT 92 BOS 91 TOR Did not make playoffs 90 SEA Did not make playoffs 88 ATL

It really was an awful call. Sad way for a whole season to end.

Smoltz probably watched those games, but doesn't think Pivetta will repeat that feat the next time. He thinks Cora is pushing his luck. The way Pivetta has looked great then awful several times, this year, he might not be wrong.

Did anyone ever explain why management went out of their way to say they were stretching Whitlock out to be a starter and then almost immediately started pitching him 1 inning at a time?

Of course, but when an extension is signed, we normally look at what would that player have gotten on the market at the time of the signing. Yes, if the debate is about what would he have signed for after 2019, team physicals would have played a major role in the price set on his next contract. Just for argument's sake, do you think the contract was fair at the time it was signed, despite knowing an injury was possible?

There is something strange going on with Sale. He might have been lucky to only have a 4.08 ERA in his last 4 starts of the 2021 regular season, but he got K's in 21 of his last 38 outs, including all 7 outs in his start vs WASH. He K'd 2 out of 3 in that one start vs TBR, too.

They sure spent the money "saved," though.

He earned $150M/4? He certainly was a big factor in the 2018 season, and I've said I would not say it was a bad signing due to that, but it's different saying he earned his contract, IMO.

I hear you. Houck is the only one of the two to go 5-6 innings in MLB. Whitlock has excelled as a RP'er going 1-2 IP.

Umm, our pen was carried by Whitlock, and at times Houck. Ottavino and Barnes also did well out of the gate. Ottavino was costly. If we move both Houck and Whitlock to the rotation, we will need major additions to the pen. We don't have the luxury to add 15 ho-hum pitchers like Robles and Sawamura, in hopes 6-9 stick. Our roster is deeper, now, than last year. Also, I'm not so sure why people are pointing at Sawamura as a success story. He was okay, but we aren't winning with 9 Sawamura's, next year. Please stop saying I think Bloom will have to spend high dollars on relief pitching. For one, I don't think that is what Bloom does, and secondly, he won't spend big on RP'er, even if he is given $40M and both Houck and Whitlock are moved to the rotation. He will likely spend a significant amount to fill a few slots (2-4, maybe) and then sign a bunch of minor league deals or deals that give a pitcher an option to opt out in May, if they are not on the 26 man roister. He will not spend a whole lot. We also need a utility IF'er and many here want Schwarber back. That won't leave much for high spending on the pen, anyway. While there might be dozens of Robles and Sawamura's, having to go through dozens and dozens, and I'm not exaggerating here, to find a few that stick can be very costly, in terms of early and mid season losses. With all the rag-tag moves Bloom had to make this year, which included moving a $10M starter (Richards) and $6M starter (Perez) to the pen, one could argue, he spent a lot on the pen, this year. (Almost $9M for Ottavino and the extension for Barnes, too) I'm a hug fan of Bloom, as everyone knows, but he is not some savant on finding quality but low cost pen arms at a better rate than anyone else, as far as I know. Here is a list of the pitchers used in the pen since the start of 2020: Bloom Acquisitions: Whitlock Ottavino Andriese Sawamura Valdez Robles Rios Davis Feliz Bazardo Gonsalvez Brennan Peacock Schreiber Espinal Ort (Richards & Perez from rotation) Weber Springs Brice Covey Osich Stock Mazza Hall Tapia Godley Triggs Leyer Workman (2nd time) Here before Bloom: DHern Barnes Hembree Taylor Workman Brasier Walden Brewer Bloom acquired 31 RP'er in the past 2 years. Maybe 3-4 have done well and another 3-4 okay. If Houck and Whitlock go to the rotation and Ottavino is not re-signed as a FA, we are losing our top 2 RP'er by IP and look to Barnes as the key for 2022. OPS Against in 2021 out of the pen (listed by most PAs against): RED= Gone from Pen, if 2 are moved to rotation .631 Whitlock (298 PA) TO ROTATION .728 Ottavino 276 .768 Sawamura 233 .641 Barnes 222 (Very bad in second half) .702 DHern 182 .700 Valdez 177 .659 Richards 113 .692 Robles 109 (FA after 2021) .615 Rios 98 (A hopeful for 2022) .864 Workman 93 .773 Davis 75 .795 Perez 64 .843 Brice 64 .742 Brasier 50 .493 Houck 42 TO Rotation FT Our 2022 Pen: R1. ______ R2. ______ R3. ______ R4. Barnes R5. Taylor R6. Brasier R7. DHern R8. Sawamura R9. Valdez/Davis/Rios/Feltman/Bazardo So, in light of the fact that we have about 3-5 roster openings after Rule 5, is the idea is to not sign a SP'er or utility man, but instead to sign 5 RP'ers at a low to moderate cost, in hopes they fill the 3 top slots?

I am pretty sure Whitlock starts. I'd like to see Houck as our closer, but I'd be fine, if he starts, too.