moonslav59

I knew I was forgetting a big one. I remember hearing a lot of bitching, then, too... a year later, silence.

So, JH approves the Sale, Nate and Bogey extensions, then has second thoughts, has a falling out with DD, perhaps over this and the maybe the plan to cut the budget by so much, it c necessitates the need to trade 1-3 big contracts away, and they part ways. He then hires a GM who is used to tight budgets and building up a farm and foundation with precious little funding, and everyone gets mad at a rich guy for doing exactly what most rich guys do. Yup.

He reset in 2017.

We all get it. Nick mentions signing him earlier. Let's face the truth and realize the Sox never wanted Boget at current market prices, let alone more.

No doubt. I think other GMs did, too, but they were prepared to overpay bigly. In hindsight, I bet some teams wished they'd have offered more QOs or tried to lock up their QO players a year or two ago, even if just to trade them once the market shot up. Nobody, here, liked the $30M for one more year initial offer to Bogey. That was very similar to Lester, and again, they did not seem to be willing to quickly follow up with another one. I truly believe they just did not want Bogey back at what everyone perceived the market prices were or would be. Even if he'd have taken $170M/6 a year or year and a half ago, I'm not sure they think he was worth that, then. Hell, they may not have really wanted to pay them that now that market prices have risen. They signed Story last year. Many saw te writing on the wall, then. They met with Bogey and then immediately signed Yoshida. They knew they never pay market price at every point through the market price changes. Call them stupid for undervaluing Bogey, but IMO, they knew exactly what they were doing and were not "stupid" for not offering what it would take to sign him earlier. They don't think he's worth it. They did not think DLowe was. They did not think Pedro was. They did not think Beltre, Damon Betts and others were either. They have their system for projecting value of their current players and they seem to stick with it. Some examples of getting sentimental and extending players that were nearing or past prime have not always worked out well: Schilling Lowell Youk Pearce Nate did fine but not great ('19-'22) I'm sure I'm missing others and some that worked out well, too.

Wasn't he on the "military list," whatever that is, with the Sox, and if yes, why weren't they protected from needing to put him on the 40?

Theo and DD and Ben all had to reset at some point. I doubt any of them liked it when they had to cut salary of not replace some departing players, when you have no or too few ascending prospects to take their places. I can't recall any of the GMs being forced to cut so much payroll as after 2019, and remember, before 2019, DD was not replacing Kimbrel, Kelly and a few other key role players as it looked like the budget was being geared towards a 2020 reset. The $40M given to Bloom is the winters before 2020 and 2021 did not even get them close to where the 2018 and 2019 budgets were. We did not get there until the Story signing. Henry does have a history of going 2-3 years in a row without going over the tax line (2008-2009 and 2012-2014.) The weird thing is, despite all the Krumpus talk, we have not stayed under for 2+ years in a row since 2014 (2017 and 2020 were solo years.) Had we not had 3 stud players all reaching free agency in a 3-4 year period, maybe this would have just looked like business as usual.

This also applies to DHern and his "nasty stuff."

Yes, I said, "even if to just trade him."

If Whitlock took $19M/4 after having a very nice season in the bigs, I think Bello (and Casas) might settle for that. BTW, an 8 year deal adds about 3 years of control. Maybe we should push for 9 and 10 year deals that bring them to the exact end of prime.

Troll!

War is not perfect, for sure, and I too, find it hard to understand how a SS who plays average D gains that much value. I know, I know, Bogey played plus D thanks to the shift, but there is some value in playing average D vs no D as the DH or minus D when Schwarbs does take the field.

100%, Nick. I'd even consider $350M/14, if the league wouldn't nix it.

He'd probably have taken $180M/6, and right now, that looks pretty good, but back then, I thought $170M/6 was the max I'd pay. I know others were saying $200M/8 or even more, but at the market we thought it was a few months ago, I think that was too much.

He's barely post prime in his last year, too.

I get that. See my last post that spells out what he financial benefit could have been had Krumpus not slashed the budget.

Remember, I suggested $400M/14 for Betts. It's a separate issue in some ways. Again, I'd be piossed if we trade Devers for the same type of promising players we got for Betts. I was pissed when we traded Betts. One big negative about the Betts (and don't forget the Price aspect) was we did not replace his contract. In theory, we could have gotten Verdugo, Downs, Wong and $45M worth of AAV signings the next winter had JH not chosen to drastically cut the budget. That winter, that was enough to get: Cole (36) and C Martin (7) or Wheeler (24) and Abreu (18) How would that trade look? Maybe not as good as extending Betts, but not so bad. Maybe we do replace Devers' contract, if we trade him.

Again, Ort won't be here in a few days or weeks. It really was Ward vs Duran, Downs or Taylor. When Jansen and Yoshida are added to the 40, who goes? When we signa SS, RF'er and SP'er who are the next 3? I do think we should have kept Ward, even if just to trade him to the Nats for a non 40 man prospect, but it was not really Ward vs Ort. Add Jansen- DFA or trade Ort Add Yoshida- DFA or trade Brasier Add a SS- DFA or trade Park or Downs Add a RF'er- DFA or trade Duran or Seabold Add a SP'er- DFA or trade someone from the above choices or DHern It was really Ward vs Seabold, DHern, Downs or Duran. That's a bit closer.

If they trade Devers for a pretty good haul and sign Correa and Senga, you are still a goner? Many look back at the Betts trade as a total disaster, but at the time, Verdugo was looking very good and had 5 years of control to one of Betts, and Downs was pretty highly rated prospects. Wong was a flyer. Just because Dugo's improvement stalled, and Downs has pretty much sucked, on offense, anyway, doesn't mean the plan.idea sucked, or that the next trade won't work out much better. Beating a dead horse again, but won't Dugo's 5 years, at least match Bett's one year in value?

I still think the odds are under 1% we sign CC, but it was under a half a percent a couple days ago.

I get that, but many players can still be a decent DH at age 43. Judge is the best hitter in MLB. I'd suspect he could easily be one that could. Had they offered him a 20 year deal, okay. If that is their idea, then they should set an age and make a rule before this happens- not after.

Once we add Jansen and Yoshida plus 1-3 more players to come, Ort will not be on the 40. It was never Ward vs Ort. It was Ward vs our #36 guy. That being said, I wish we had kept Ward, even if to trade him later. I think he does offer more hope than our bottom 4-6 roster players. There is a chance the Sox know more than we do about him, though. I doubt he'll be the next Whitlock.

Despite what the negative ninnies think or expect, this guy has a pretty good chance at being REAL good.

It's really a defining moment for JH. If he unloads Devers, and Story or not, one has to think he's decided to sell the team or take it in a direction we are unfamiliar with. I'm not sure a Tampa Bay North philosophy that spend near the tax line every year is such a bad idea. No mega contracts. No mega long contracts, unless they are for rising young stars before they even reach arb. I have faith in our farm- maybe more than I should, but I'm not giving up on the hope we can construct a long term winning strategy, in fact, I've not given up hope the results begin in 2023. I feel real good about 2024.

I'm a ways away from this position. I lived through so much crap with this team, that those 4 rings cancel out all of this crap with a lot of crap left to receive, before the balance shifts to wanting to dump JH & Co, for some unknown owner. 4 rings in 2 decades and a farm system now in place for long term success, and a budget that looks better than it has since the pre-Pablo/HRam signing days. It's easy to get sucked into the malaise. I was for a day and a half or more. I'm still not happy, but the final product has yet to be presented, and guys like Bello, Casas, Mayer, Mata, Rafaela and others are here, now or about to be here in not too long. Remember, Ebenezer Scrooge had a positive transformation and A Christmas Carol has a happy ending.