Maxbialystock

I could have been one of those who disagreed with you, but now agree completely Barnes is dead, dead, dead without a great knuckle curveball. Actually, a decent knuckle curve can work if he can command it and not throw it in the middle of the strike zone. Meanwhile, right now is fastball might as well be renamed "dingerball," because it's the one that is just killing him. The WEEI guys want Barnes to stick with the fastball and curve, but right now I think his pretty decent changeup could help him. But, yes, you and others who have questioned Barnes were dead on target and us defenders were wrong.

Renfroe wasn't the problem. That double brings in 2 runs without the error, and that's all the Rays needed. This team right now is bad in every aspect of the game: hitting, rotation, bullpen, defense, and baserunning. Ironically, the weakest part, the rotation, has been pretty good for four straight games, giving up 6 earned runs in 20 innings. I wrote on another thread that I saw some good signs in the loss on Sunday. Now I think this team is collapsing. Every reliever is suspect, no exceptions. Every starter is suspect, no exceptions. The defense is unreliable and doesn't have much range. The baserunning is as bad as I have ever seen for a Sox team. And the hitting, which has been solid for a huge chunk of this season, is also coming apart, especially when there are scoring opportunities.

I'm not so sure about ownership being so bad. The team that is losing now is almost exactly the same team that lead the AL East for 2/3 of this season. But now they are terrible in every aspect of the game--pitching, hitting, running, defense. The same guys. What we all wanted more than anything was a good starter, but one good starter does not fix this team when the bullpen, hitting, defense, and baserunning are all so bad.

I guess that's why he doesn't want to throw his knuckle curve. Up in the zone and, well, hanging. Two games in a row when the bullpen has absolutely blown a game. Barnes is the guy the Sox just extended two years with a really nice pay raise. Smart move.

The idiots on WEEI can't even tell when Barnes is throwing a changeup, and he has thrown several already.

Cordero also sucks.

At this point I suspect that the Sox pitchers were even more dependent on doctoring up the baseball than most other pitching stuff.

Barnes gives up a double on a fastball after getting two quick strikes on curves.

Now let's see if Barnes keeps coming with heat, which has hurt him so much recently.

A big discussion on Vazquez on I think Part III of a Realistic View of 2021, the upshot of which is that, while Vazquez may have his faults, there is near universal agreement he should be the starting catcher. Even I agreed to that if only because I trust Cora and Cora believes in Vazquez. On the other hand, I do get into games, and tonight I am furious that Whitlock kept throwing fastballs which the Rays kept hitting hard even thought Whitlock has a good assortment of breaking balls. Right now Kittredge of the Rays keeps throwing sliders and is mowing the Sox down. So, yes, right now I think Vazquez is dumb, the pitchers are dumb, the pitching coach is dumb, and so is the manager. They all love fastballs and so do opposing hitters.

That had to one of the stupidest at bats I've seen from JDM. But it also shows the value of throwing breaking balls. Too bad the Sox pitchers prefer heat.

A day's rest has apparently not done much for the bullpen. Same crap as Sunday. It has not helped that Whitlock, far and away the Sox best reliever statistically and going in with a clean inning, was encouraged to keep throwing fastballs no matter what. And, in case anyone has forgotten, the two losses, 1-0 and 9-8, to the Jays were on fastballs by Barnes who apparently decided that, well, he doesn't really need that knuckle curve or changeup any more.

Hey, big guy, are you paying any attention to what is happening on the field? Whitlock throwing 80% fastballs gives up 4 hits, 2 BB's, and 2 runs. Whitlock throwing changeups: 2 straight K's. And please note, again, I am blaming Vazquez, Whitlock, and the pitching coach. They were all pretty stupid tonight.

Now three straight changeups and strikes for a k. What are Vazquez, the pitching coach, and especially Whitlock so unbelievably stupid?L

I've accepted that Cora wants him to catch every game possible, plus I pointed out that Whitlock seemed perfectly happy throwing 80% fastballs despite getting hit hard. And, whoops, there goes another rubber tree plant. A hard single off another Whitlock fastball. Now a first pitch changeup swung on and missed, which is of course meaningless because only fastballs are worth throwing. Now a K on a changeup!!!! What is wrong with this picture? A dumb fan, me, sees what the problem is before Vazquez, Whitlock, or the pitching coach does.

Why did Whitlock keep throwing fastballs, which were getting hit hard, and why did Vazquez keep calling for them?

Absolutely no question that both the Springer game winner yesterday and the Guerrero game winner Saturday were more likely because those two, especially Guerrero, are very good hitters. On the other hand, that's all the more reason for Barnes to give it his best effort. Against Guerrero on Saturday, his first pitch was a fast 96 mph right down the middle, which Guerrero jerked out of the park. Interestingly, Barnes faced Guerrero again yesterday and struck him out, but this time he mixed in curves and change-ups. Also, against Springer yesterday Barnes threw mostly fast balls, which were obviously tempting fate. Barnes must mix in breaking balls, especially his knuckle curve, to be successful.

Agree on all as I did when you first said this. However, I'm still pissed that the guy hasn't played a single game yet. Also, even though I no doubt mistakenly think 1b is the easiest infield position, this season on this Sox team it appears to be twice as tough as SS, 3b, or 2b. Dalbec, a trained thirdbaseman, has struggled at 1b. Arroyo injured himself playing there. And, for all we know, Schwarber's groin pull happened as a result of just practicing at 1b. Gone are the days when a third baseman like Youk could move to 1b seamlessly and skillfully. Ditto Mike Napoli, a career catcher. Even Ted Williams late in his career could play 1b semi-adequately.

Possibly. Certainly others have done so this season. But, assuming that Cora has every intention of keeping Vazquez in the primary slot, we are only talking about a few more games for Plawecki, maybe 3 or 4. Plus let's not forget that Plawecki doesn't have Vazquez's annoying habit of running into outs at every opportunity.

Ahem. His last turn was Saturday. On that day, playing a double header (7 + 8 innings), the Sox gave up a total of 2 runs in 15 innings--1 run in each game. I do think Sale would have lasted longer than Houck (3.2 innings, 1 run), but cannot be sure he would have given up 1 or no runs. The 2018 Sale could certainly have done better than Houck, but the August 2021 Sale is still a question mark. Pitching well in AA and/or AAA no longer provides the same level of assurance it once did.

As disappointing as the Toronto series was--especially yesterday's game when the Sox blew an 8-4 lead--my take away is that the Sox are only mostly dead. It's still too early to look for loose change in the Red Sox corpus. Why? Four reasons. First and foremost, the Sox came to Toronto limping badly. The rotation stunk, the hitting was almost as bad, the baserunning stunk, and the defense was nothing to brag about. And, true to that storyline, the Sox got killed Friday night, 12-4, with their putative ace Eovaldi on the mound. He threw 4 superb shutout innings and was destroyed in the 5th, when he gave up 7 runs and the Jays scored 9 total. But Saturday was a vastly different story. The Sox had a real shot at winning both ends of that double-header because Pivetta was at his best (6 innings, 0 runs, 1 hit) and Houck was about what we hoped for (3.2 innings, 1 run). Meanwhile the hitting was miserable in both games and scored a total of 2 runs, one of them (the game-winner) unearned, in 15 innings. In the 2d game, which the Sox won, the bullpen (Taylor, Whitlock, Barnes, and Ottavino) pitched 4.1 shutout innings, which is kind of what they have done all season long. Then yesterday the hitting finally took hold against a lefty, Ryu, who has plagued them in previous games: 8 runs on 16 hits (4 by JDM, 3 by Plawecki, 2 each by Bogie, Devers, Dalbec, and Duran). Even starter Richards was better than his usual, going 5 innings while giving up 4 (3 earned). But yesterday the bullpen (Taylor, Sawamura, Ottavino, and Barnes) all struggled and gave up 5 earned runs in 3 innings and lost a 4 run lead and the game. My take, no doubt overly optimistic, is that the Sox came oh so close to winning this series, 3 games to 1, against a team that is actually very good and playing their best ball of this season. And they did so because the rotation actually began to show some signs of competence (even though I hope the Sox dump Richards and Perez soon) and because the hitters showed some signs of life. As for the bullpen, I think that 4th game in 3 days was just a bridge too far. Taylor, Sawamura, Ottavino, and Barnes have all been terrific this season and were in fact terrific in game 3, the second game on Saturday. So, in sum, I see positive signs in the rotation and the hitting and believe that bullpen is still good. Also, the Sox could have swept the last 3 games in Toronto, winning one by 1 run and losing the other two each by 1 run. Indeed, both of those 1 run Sox losses were on dingers given up by Barnes, who apparently has decided that he doesn't need (or believes he no longer has) that knuckle curve that used to destroy hitters.

I prefer moonslav's approach insofar as it compares the two catchers pitcher by pitcher. I also disregard 2020 for obvious reasons. This year Vazquez and Plawecki are close, with a slight edge to Vazquez, on catching Eovaldi. Vazquez is the only one to catch ERod, who is having easily his worse year with the Sox, but that is somewhat explained by ERod's COVID and heart issues last year (and this), so I call it neutral in terms of comparing the two catchers. No discredit to Vazquez for ERod's bad year. Plawecki has a clear edge catching Pivetta, which I think is a big deal, and Richards, which is probably irrelevant since I'd like to boot Richards. And Vazquez has a big edge catching Perez, also irrelevant. Big edge to Vazquez catching Barnes, which I think could be significant. Plawecki was catching both games, Saturday game 1 and yesterday's game, when Barnes gave up homers in both games. I cite those games because I do blame Plawecki in part for the two dingers if only because he went along with Barnes preference for establishing his authority with heat. Both dingers were off fastballs, and I believe Barnes can excel as a closer only if the hitters do not or cannot have a reasonable expectation of seeing a fastball, especially one down the middle and that it's the catcher's job to ask for that knuckle curve. A possible excuse for Plawecki is that Barnes could be less confident in his knuckle curve these days because of the dictum on not doctoring the baseball. But, at the end of the day, it's results that count, and Barnes, by the numbers, stinks when Plawecki is behind the plate. Neither catcher is good at throwing out baserunners, but Vazquez is still the better--20% of the time vs. 10%. Both have more than their fair share of passed balls--Vazquez 9 to Plawecki's 3. So, even though there's a lot I don't like about Vazquez, I do give him the edge, but not by much. Plus Plawecki is hitting better.

Yesterday, pretty darn good pitching. Today good hitting. I see hope for a rotation of Sale/Eovaldi/Pivetta/Houck/ERod and the lineup we saw today and despite the continuing absence of Schwarber and Arroyo who appear to be dedicated IL'ers.

Whoa, Nellie. I'm the one defending Richards, whom I despise, but not because because he was great but because our expectations were low and because he left the game when the Sox were leading 7-4 after 5 innings. This was an adequate start under the circumstances. The bullpen normally could hold a 3 run lead, which became a 4 run lead, for 4 innings. About Barnes. I think his formula for success is simple: mix the fastball with knuckle curves and be able to command both pitches. When he gives up the knuckle curve, as he clearly did tonight, he is dead meat. Both dingers off Barnes--in yesterday's day game and today's game--were off of fastballs near the center of the zone. I will agree with the backsliding if you agree he needs that knuckle curve working to be successful.

You and I may be the only semi-optimists still standing. I loved the hitting tonight. I loved both starts yesterday. I think the bullpen is still good. A rotation of Sale, Eovaldi, Pivetta, Houck, and ERod could work, especially if the hitting comes back as it did today and if the bullpen recovers from one bad game. Someone needs to tell Barnes that, if he relies on his fastball as he did yesterday and again tonight, he cannot be a reliable closer. He must use and command both the knuckle curve and the fast ball. Even that changeup is better than a steady diet of fastballs.