Maxbialystock

Great win, maybe best this season. Much needed. Excellent Sox defense, not just Renfroe.

Sox split the series in the Trop last week, 2-2, and won the last two games, 4-0 and 3-2, which look like pretty good Sox pitching to me. ERod started in the 4-0 win. Sale in the 3-2 win. I do agree, however, that the Rays are the much better team.

Rasmussen: 6 innings, 1 run, 7 hits. ERod: 3.2 innings, 6 runs, 8 hits. Hard to see how ERod outpitched Rasmussen. Indeed, you can almost make a case that Feliz, 2.1 innings, 2 runs, outpitched ERod.

Probably true. Of course, no one on talksox thought so either.

Hyperbolic, beyond question. Same for eating my words, which I would love to do tonight. But I still think you are obtuse to declare ERod is pitching well when the Rays have nailed him for 5 runs, etc. Ditto for Rasmussen pitching poorly when the Sox have just 1 run in 4 innings. Whoops, there goes another dinger by the Rays, and out comes Cora to pull ERod, who only gave up 6 runs in 3.2 innings--on 2 dingers, a triple, 3 doubles, and 2 singles.

2 stinking singles by Schwarber and JDM. I love it! Time for Devers to get us back in the game.

You have to be one of the more obtuse fans I can remember encountering. ERod stinks tonight, and the Rays are clobbering him with 6 hits, including 2 doubles, a triple, and a home run. Meanwhile, Rasmussen gave up a lead off single and double in the 2d--putting men on 2d and 3d with no outs--and easily held the Sox to one run off a groundout by Vazquez.

I figure Cora will let ERod keep pitching until at least 7 Rays runs score--and why not? No bullpen. Sox can't hit with RISP. Not much improvement in the defense.

Not seeing a lot of luck with the Rays. Solid pitching, solid defense, and the most runs scored in MLB. Bad luck to have to play half your games in the Trop, but apparently the players like it. It's nice and quiet.

Great pickoff throw by Vazquez. Saved ERod's ass--for now.

Verdugo can't field and can't hit. Recently.

Looks like a repeat of yesterday's game--same weak pitching and weak defense--but without the good hitting. But it's early. Devers, Renfroe, and Verdugo are going to make Rasmussen wish he never came came to Fenway.

So much for lights out. Two hard hit doubles back to back in the 2d inning. Followed by a hard hit single. Looks like batting practice--first time through the Rays batting order.

Prophetic

Yep.

Absolutely not. This defense is significantly worse than 2018's. My argument is not that this defense is OK or adequate, but that hitting and pitching (even when backed up by a weak defense) are the drivers and that overall the Sox have tended to prefer hitting and pitching a whole lot more than defense. These Sox could well make it to the playoffs despite the defense, despite the current unsteadiness of the bullpen, despite the impact of covid, and despite the fact that Bloom, no doubt with the approval of JH, did not acquire players for this season which were expected to be competitive. It's 7 freaking September, and, despite tremendous effort, the Sox defense has been unable to knock this team out of the playoffs. Indeed, despite what seemed like a thousand unearned runs yesterday--to say nothing of other weak defensive plays that did not count as errors-- the Sox had no less than two very good chances to win yesterday's game in the 9th and 10th innings. Oh, and the pitching stunk too.

You are just the right guy to start this thread and remind us of ERod's recent outings. I've hammered him for most of the season, but lately he's been astounding. Kike reportedly could play tonight, which could really help the outfield--assuming Cora goes with Iglesias at SS and Arauz at 2b. I'd sit Dalbec and get Schwarber's bat in the lineup by putting him back at 1b with JDM as DH. So I like the starter and the lineup (sight unseen), but at this point am terrified of our bullpen.

The best outfield you've ever seen had DWAR's of -.6 (Beni), +.4 (JBJ), and +1.8 (Mookie) in 2018. According to DWAR's for all MLB centerfielders in 2018, JBJ was 18th best, Beni was 45th best MLB left fielder, and Mookie was the best defensive right fielder in MLB.

Moreland's DWAR stunk in 2018. Agree on Youk and AGon, but between them they played 1b for a tad less than 4 seasons of games. They are the exceptions that prove the rule that the Sox recruit bats first, gloves a distant 2d. Thus I love that stat on Dalbec, which I'm sure is valid. Can you guess which Sox first baseman has played the most games this year? Hint: he's 5th on the Sox in rbi's, 5th in dingers, and has an OPS of .762.

I cut Cora zero slack because he almost always makes either the right decision or the best one available to him. You are right about the pitching yesterday and could even beat up the top of the order for failing to deliver in the bottom of the 10th. They absolutely, positively could not handle that slider McHugh kept throwing over and over and over and over again. On your overall inclination to defend Cora this year, you could not be more right. I myself have whined about him and later had to admit he made the best moves under the circumstances.

Are we talking about the same play? The one I'm looking at shows Verdugo going back and to his right (when he is facing away from the plate), not going fast, and clearly having a problem seeing the ball.

I've already said--repeatedly--that the defense is lousy-but offer some sniveling excuses. For starters, injuries, including covid, have definitely affected this team's D. You have pointed out that Kike in CF makes a big difference, but he has played a lot of 2b because Arroyo has been on the IL a bunch. Verdugo, Kike, and Renfroe is probably an average outfield and definitely better than what we've seen in 80% of the games this year. The left side of the infield, Devers and Bogey, is the same one that helped win 108 games and the WS 3 years ago. And Arroyo would have been good enough at 2b but for his extended IL time. That leaves 1b, which has been a bit of a mess, but I would argue the Sox have routinely not put great fielders at 1b--Youk was the exception--because their first priority was hitting. Thus the acquisition of Schwarber who--wait for it--has been a leftfielder but has a pretty good bat. But my most important sniveling excuse isn't. Once again may I remind you that this team--with its good, bad, or indifferent defense game in and game out--has vastly outperformed what we expected before the season started. Indeed, and despite a slew of guys now on the IL/covid list, the Sox are still very much in the wild card hunt.

Ball was hit to Verdugo's left, which is where the sun was setting.

Wow. Gutsy call. You are absolutely right about the sun and also about the fact that everyone--and I mean everyone (but me) on talksox--has ignored the fact that our ace gave up 10 hits in 3.2 innings. While I do agree with moonslav and others that the defense stinks, I would ask our resident experts to name a Sox team in the John Henry era that can rightfully be said to have won the WS with great defense. The Sox win with hitting and, when they can beg, borrow, or steal it, pitching. Indeed, my favorite example of how unimportant the Sox FO considers defense to be was the 2013 season when they dumped Iglesias, a brilliant shortstop, to acquire Jake Peavy, a middling starter who nevertheless was more valuable than Iglesias, who went to the Tigers who lost to the Sox in the ALCS. With Peavy and without Iglesias, the Sox won their 3d WS in the JH era. Or consider maybe the best Sox team ever, 2018. Here are some of the DWAR's for that team: Nunez -1.5, JDM -1.4, Bogey -1.0, Devers -.9, Benintendi (yes, the same guy who got "catch of the year" for that play in in Houston) -.6, Moreland -.5, Pearce -.4, Travis -.3, Holt -.1. That Betts +1.8 and JBJ +.9 were excellent in RF and CF no doubt causes us to think that was a really good defensive team, which it was not. That team with its so-so defense won 108 regular season games, beat the Yankees 3-1, the Astros 4-1, and the Dodgers 4-1 to win the 4th WS in the JH era. I am not advocating lousy defense and do appreciate moonslav's points, but have to think it's a little late in the JH era to suddenly decide the Sox need good defense to win. Indeed, this throw-together team which none--repeat, none--of us expected to go anywhere this season, is still very much in the hunt for the postseason despite being hit hard by the pandemic. Also, FWIW, I too like the Rays defense, which looks pretty solid. But guess what? The Rays lead MLB in runs scored!!! Yesterday--and this is going to come as a shock to everyone on this thread--they got 19 hits, and not all of them were because some Sox player didn't quite make the play another, better defender might have made.

His cumulative WAR for 10 seasons is 10.1. This year so far it's -1.2. In 9 season's, Bogey's cumulative WAR is 28.4, and this year so far it's 4.2