Maxbialystock
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10/20 ALCS Game 5 vs Astros
Maxbialystock replied to mvp 78's topic in Mike Grace Memorial Game Thread Forum
Terrific first inning by Sale. I don't care about K's even though they have been one of the measurements for his success. I do like the no walks and the use of 4 different pitches in the 1st: fastball, sinker, changeup, and slider. 9 pitches was fantastic! Meanwhile, Kike K's looking. These umps are just so unfair to the Sox. It's criminal. -
10/20 ALCS Game 5 vs Astros
Maxbialystock replied to mvp 78's topic in Mike Grace Memorial Game Thread Forum
Of course it's a key. My point is that right now I'm afraid our starters, including Sale, can't win a game without massive hitting support to overcome whatever runs the bullpen will give up. -
10/20 ALCS Game 5 vs Astros
Maxbialystock replied to mvp 78's topic in Mike Grace Memorial Game Thread Forum
The Sox have had the edge in starters in all 4 games and have lost 2 of them because the Astros bullpen has been better in close games. I think Sale could have a disastrous start and lose tonight's game early, but no way do I think he will win tonight's game. Friday and Saturday we got a shot because Eovaldi and ERod are starting, but even then the Sox bullpen is capable of blowing it. As I said before, the Sox have yet to win a postseason game in which they scored less than 6 runs. That said, Pivetta was nothing less than magnificent in game 3 of the ALDS, and Houck was fantastic in game 2. Both were long relievers in those games. And right now I just don't see a good Sox long reliever. Pivetta is now a starter. Houck is getting hit hard. Even Whitlock isn't looking that great. -
To remind: whether Brasier was the best option vs. Perez is irrelevant. The Sox were down 3-2 when Perez went in and could not score in the bottom of the 9th even though Baker sent in one of his weaker arms.
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Lost in this back and forth is the absolute fact, not guess, but fact, that in no way did Perez's stint have any effect on the outcome of the game. When he went in, the Sox were down 3-2 and had been shut out for 7 consecutive innings, which turned into 8 consecutive innings when they failed to score in the 9th.
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"Like a lot of people keep saying that the more pitchers you bring into a tight game the more chances you have that one of them will not be good" originated with you. Or, if not with you, then you are its most vocal proponent. And, of course, you've again brought it up with respect to last night's game because you think Cora used too many bullpen arms. So I have to ask, are you unaware that the the Astros and Sox used exactly the same number of relievers--five--last night? Are you also unaware that the one time Cora left a reliever, Whitlock, his best reliever all year long, in to pitch a second inning, he gave up the tying run in the 8th?
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Until someone can convince me that Brasier, once he kept the Astros from scoring a 4th run, was then going to bat in the tying run, I frankly think wishing he had pitched instead of Perez is irrelevant. The Sox failed to score in the 9th, as they had in the 8th, 7th, 6th, 5th, 4th, 3d, and 2d innings. The Sox didn't lose this game because of Perez, but because the Astros bullpen was terrific last night--and the Astros finally scored a run to tie and a run to go ahead off of Cora's best bullpen arms: Taylor, Ottavino, Whitlock, and Eovaldi. No was has presented a shred of evidence that the Sox were going to score again after Bogey's dinger in the 1st.
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EO and Vazquez together agreed on four straight fastballs to Correa, which I maintain wasn't smart because we have seen Eovaldi get tagged in the past when hitters are sure his next pitch is a fastball. As for Perez, he was sent in with the score 3-2, Astros, so I didn't really care who went in at that point. And, sure enough, the Sox scored zilch in the 9th inning, just as they had in the 8th, 7th, 6th, 5th, 4th, 3d, and 2d innings. So I have to ask you why you think Perez was the key to the Sox winning this game. To me he was basically irrelevant.
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10/20 ALCS Game 5 vs Astros
Maxbialystock replied to mvp 78's topic in Mike Grace Memorial Game Thread Forum
Nicely done laydown of game 5 options for both teams. I too think the bullpens--and lineups--will be key. -
The umps weren't why the Sox stopped scoring after the first inning, why Whitlock gave up the tying dinger in the 8th, or why Eovaldi gave up the leadoff double in the top of the 9th. The Astros won last night because they had great pitching and just enough hitting. The Sox lost because their lineup stunk after Bogey's dinger in the 1st. We already know the Sox were scoreless in the 9th inning--as they were in the 2d thru 8th innings--so I find it hard to believe that, with all their good arms used up, the Sox were going to pull this game out in extra innings.
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Strangely enough, I agree with you. Baseball is nothing if not unpredictable. I used momentum to describe how I felt last night after Altuve got that dinger off Whitlock to tie the game in the 8th. Maybe the right word was foreboding, which is what I think everyone felt throughout that game when the lineup just couldn't push another run across the plate after Bogey's dinger in the 1st. But I think it's also true that Cora threw his best pitchers out there last night to get win #3: Pivetta, Taylor, Ottavino, Whitlock, and Eovaldi. If you buy the bad ump theory, you can even make the case that those five coulda/woulda/shoulda held the Astros to 2 runs in 9 innings. But I have to ask, who then pitches the 10th, 11th, 12th, etc?
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It was just how I felt at the time because the Astros bullpen dominated the Sox lineup so thoroughly and because Cora had already used Pivetta, Taylor, Ottavino, and Whitlock. Eovaldi was supposed to close with a 2-1 lead. With the game tied, I just thought the Astros had the upper hand, which was exacerbated when Eovaldi threw four straight fastballs to Correa, who led off the 9th with a double off the RF wall. As I keep reminding folks, the Sox have not won a single postseason game when scoring fewer than 6 runs, and last night they scored 2.
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Well, I thought at the time the momentum had already shifted to the Astros because their bullpen was so effective. Nevertheless, it was still a tie game, plus he had planned all along to use Eovaldi because last night was midway between Eovaldi's last start, last Saturday, and presumed next start, this Friday. That move, which made sense, turned sour when Eovaldi foolishly threw four straight fastballs to Correa, who led off the 9th with a double. Right guy, right inning, dumb pitching. When he mixed in breaking balls, he got two K's, but then came that single--after those presumed strikes were called balls--off a splitter a little up in the zone. You want to make this game outcome all about what you think are Cora's mistakes, but I'm certain the real problem was that the Astros bullpen dominated the Sox lineup. If the Sox ain't hitting this postseason, they ain't winning. Cora in fact used his best arms last night--Pivetta, Taylor, Ottavino, Whitlock, and Eovaldi--until the Sox were down 3-2 in the 9th.
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Heck, I agree with dgalehouse too. In fact, my entire goal in this discussion was to defend Cora because I do think he made some great decisions to give the Sox a chance to win when the lineup was just moribund. When he pulled Pivetta, I had expected to leave him in, but then realized Pivetta was facing the Astros lineup for the 3d time. Plus Taylor and Ottavino did a good job in the 6th and Whitlock in the 7th. Sending him out for the 8th made complete sense to me, and expecting Eovaldi to close the game out in the 9th did too. But Whitlock gave up the dinger to Altuve and Eovaldi the double to Correa. But, most of all and completely out of Cora's control, the lineup just got shut down after the 1st inning. Credit the Astros bullpen.
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Yep. Three runs might have been enough against the Yankees. But the Rays and Astros are both better hitting ball clubs and against the Sox pitching have scored 5, 6, 4, 5, 4, 5, 3, and 9 runs. And, as good as the Sox lineup has been, they were shut out once by the Rays and last night held to 2 runs.
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Yep all his fault, and the fact that Eovaldi served up a double to the leadoff Astro hitter in the 9th has no bearing on the game outcome. To me throwing four straight fastballs to Correa was just plain dumb. When he and Vazquez finally wised up and started throwing other stuff, they got two K's.
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For you to be right--that sending Perez out was absolutely the wrong call--I think you need to assert how someone else could have gotten that 3d out. More importantly, how the Sox were going to win a game when they were down 3-2, had not scored since the 1st inning, and have not won a postseason game while scoring less than 6 runs.
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Just my opinion based on how I felt at the time. Perez had given up 0 runs in 1.2 innings of the postseason, but I had zero confidence in him, especially after the Astros lineup had tied the game off the Sox arguably best reliever Whitlock and gone ahead after scoring a run off the Sox ace. So I concluded Perez was sent out mainly to get Eovaldi out of the game so he could be ready to start Friday and maybe, though I had my doubts, to get the 3d out.
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I'm more than happy to concede that. But then you need to concede that the Sox hitting died after the 1st inning. They were 0 for 9 with RISP. They failed to bring Bogey home after his one out double, ditto Arroyo after his one out triple. The Sox bullpen, meanwhile, gave up 2 runs in 4 inning--and those two runs were scored off arguably the Sox two best pitchers, Whitlock and Eovaldi.
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One more time. The Sox have not won a single game in the postseason while scoring less than 6 runs. Last night that scored 2 runs in 9 innings. Last night they were 0 for 9 with RISP. Last night the Astros bullpen was excellent.
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See above. The Sox have won 6 postseason games, but none when scoring less than 6 runs. True, we can't "know" for sure what would have happened in the bottom of the 9th, down 3-2, but we can make a reasonable supposition based on what we saw earlier in last night's game and earlier in this postseason. When I saw Perez go out there, I thought Cora figured the game was over and now needed to get Eovaldi off the mound and not spend any more good relievers.
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The momentum was palpable last night, long before the 8th and 9th innings, because the Astros bullpen had the Sox lineup by the short hairs. They were 0 for 9 with RISP. Bogey hit a double with 1 out, and Dugo and JDM couldn't bring him home. Arroyo hit a triple with 1 out, and Schwarber and Kike couldn't bring him home. The Sox have won 6 postseason games so far, but not one while scoring less than 6 runs.
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Ahem. The Sox scored 0 runs in the bottom of the 9th as they had in the previous 7 innings. If Perez had gotten that first batter out, the Sox would have lost 3-2.
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I love Eovaldi. He has his faults, which we saw in those four straight fastballs he served up to Correa, but he is the Sox best pitcher and the right guy to pitch the 9th. Even after that double off the RF wall, Eovaldi came close to pulling off a scoreless inning. But my point is that Whitlock giving up the dinger in the 8th put the Sox in a very precarious position. As we now know, the Astros bullpen completely dominated the Sox hitting for the final 8 innings. So, when Eovaldi took the mound, it wasn't for a save but for a hold and for just one inning at that. I just did not see the Sox winning in extra innings last night because the momentum clearly belonged to the Astros bullpen and lineup.
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Of course Perez wasn't the best choice to stem the tide. Far from it. His primary purpose was to get Eovaldi off the mound. Secondarily, I think Perez presence was an admission that the tide had already washed over the Sox in this game. The Astros bullpen dominated the Sox lineup, who were 0 for 9 with RISP. The game was really lost by Whitlock when he gave up that dinger to Altuve in the 8th to tie the game. And Eovaldi made it worse by throwing four straight fastballs to Correa to lead off the 9th.