Maxbialystock

You are either a super fan or a candidate for sainthood. I too could not watch it live, which was especially exasperating because it was on TBS (as well as mlb.com, etc), and the TBS station was literally blacked out for me. The presumption behind this treatment is that, instead of watching the game from home, I will drive 8 hours to Atlanta to see it and then drive 8 hours back. Madness, madness. Anyway, I had to watch the first inning to see how the wheels came off. And, frankly, I didn't think Pivetta looked all that bad. Leadoff single was against a good hitter with the count 3-2. Then came that first pitch dinger, righty vs. lefty on a curve that was in the middle of the zone. However, it wasn't a terrible curve and it was the first pitch--but the Atlanta hitter just got all of it. The walk that followed was also on a 3-2 count, so it wasn't like Pivetta was completely wild. Then the HBP in which the Atlanta batter "took" the hit by barely moving back and getting it in the shoulder. Sox hitters rarely do that. When you throw inside to Sox hitters, they jump 6 feet in the air, 6 feet backward, or throw themselves on the ground to avoid getting HBP'd. To Sox hitters an inside pitch is like a rattlesnake with triple-power venom. Next came the K of Rosario for the first freaking out of the inning. Then came the WP on a ball that hit the ground behind the plate, so my no doubt unfair take is that McGuire could have done a better job. Anyway, that put runners on 2d and 3d with one out, so Cora--the score is still just 2-0--brings the infield in to prevent the guy on 3d from scoring on a grounder. Of course the grounder gets through for a single and run #3, plus now another runner on 3b with just 1 out. With the infielders now at double play depth, a grounder to Devers at 3b brings home the 4th run with the ground out (and no GIDP). Finally the fly out for #3, and Pivetta has thrown 31 pitches in the first inning. The Braves did not blow him away. They hit just the one dinger on a curve ball, and everything else was singles, HBP, walk, WP, etc, etc. They bled him to death. Statistically, however, Pivetta's WAR dropped from +0.2 to -0.2, which puts him in a tie with Chris Sale. The only Sox starter with a plus WAR is Houck with +0.3.

If there is a game in which errors should be tolerated, this one has to be it. In 3 innings Pivetta gave up 7 hits and 3 walks. Whoops, there goes another rubber tree plant! 7-1 Braves, courtesy of Mr. Pivetta.

True. He started out throwing strikes, but the first batter singled and the second one hit a homer on the first pitch, a curve right down the middle. So, lesson learned, and Pivetta walked the next Braves hitter and hit the next one with a pitch. Now that the Braves have a 5-0 lead, Pivetta can settle down and show us how solid he is when he's already given the game away.

Don't you mean "after the game is given away?" Atlanta's up 5-0 and their pitching is better than Philly's.

Whatever. To me all these future lineups are sand castles.

He has no problem throwing strikes because that's what the Braves are hitting. His problem he can't hit corners. Most of his strikes have been right down the middle.

With Yoshida, Duran, and Verdugo in the outfield, Kike plays infield or not at all. Duvall is probably going to replace Duran.

Sox tonight are giving every indication they can lose 8 in a row as easily as they won 8 in a row.

Agree. This game is over. Pivetta throws the ever popular hanging curve ball right down the middle.

Houck has the most IP on the team, 37.2. 2d is Sale, 35.1. 3d is Kluber, 34.1. And 4th is Pivetta, 30.2, who gets his 7th start today. If he goes, say, 5.1 innings today, that's 36 IP in 7 starts. In other words, four of the five starters are a pretty tight shot group in terms of IP. They're all around 5 IP per game. And that puts a lot of pressure on the bullpen.

Me, I would probably stick with the current five: Sale, Kluber, Houck, Pivetta, and Bello. I dislike Kluber the most, but he's been decent his last 3 starts. Sale is the ace, but a tad too prima-donnish right now. Houck, Pivetta, and Bello are, to me, all decent starters. I honestly think Houck would have gotten Schwarber out in the 6th inning last Sunday. If he had, that would have been 6 IP, 1 ER, and getting through the first five Phillies hitters for the third time. On the other hand, I don't trust Paxton or Whitlock to start right now. Crawford, maybe, but he's also been pretty good out of the pen. The six best WAR's on the Sox pitching staff belong to relievers: Winck +1.0; Jansen +0.6; Schreiber +0.6; Crawford +0.5; Martin +0.4; and Bernardino +0.4.

Interesting you should emphasize that point because right now talksox is rife with pronouncements that the dumbest thing Cora can do is let his starters go against opposing lineups a third time in a game. And there's plenty of statistical support for that view.

And I said that early on. I disagree with pulling Houck, but agree completely that decision had no effect on who would win the game. Leave Houck in, assume he gets Schwarber out, and the Sox still lose--and not just by 2-1. The Sox bullpen was determined to give the Phillies more runs, and the Phillies pitching had our hitters stymied. If you believe in the "dud liberation movement," sending Bleier out was absolutely the right thing to do. He demonstrated his incompetence in tough situations. Also, and I don't mind conceding this point to moonslav, by not letting Houck face Schwarber, Cora now has a starter who just did pretty doggone well against the 4 best Phillies hitters when he faced them for the 3d time: a popup, a K, a ground out, and a single.

Agree that burning out multi-inning relievers is a risk. However, so far that applies to just one guy, Winckowski, with 13 appearances in 37 days, including six 2-inning games and 2 3-inning games. And moonslav's point is that, with Paxton, Whitlock, and Crawford coming off the IL this month, Cora will be able to spread multi-inning relief jobs among more pitchers. Our current rotation of Sale, Kluber, Houck, Pivetta, and Bello is far from perfect, but right now I think they are more reliable than Paxton, Whitlock, or Crawford. Kluber's the worst, but in his last 3 starts he went 6IP with 1 ER vs. the Orioles, then 5 IP with 3 ER vs. the Jays, and finally 5 IP with 3 ER vs the Phillies. And the Sox won all three games.

Good points--especially that Cora has left Houck in longer/later this season than in any of the previous three. That I did not know. I can't argue that leaving Houck in was the obvious choice, because clearly it was not. I just think he had a better chance getting Schwarber out than anyone else available. I also think that pulling Houck had no effect on the outcome. The Phillies were just better yesterday. The streak had to end sometime--better in a 6-1 game.

So the other night I was watching the movie The Right Stuff and was again amazed at how everyone seemed terrified of "breaking the sound barrier," which mean flying faster than the speed of sound (350M/sec, give or take). When Chuck Yeager finally did it, it was no big deal--well, except that he set a new world record. And my point here is that the bad stats on Tanner Houck must be disregarded if he is going to progress. And the irony--ignored by almost everyone disagreeing with me--is that those bad stats were ignored yesterday when Cora allowed Houck to pitch to the first four hitters in the Phillies lineup for the third freaking time. That was in fact a breakthrough. But Old Red, MVP 78, Bellhorn and others seem to me to be saying, "what breakthrough? Nothing changed yesterday except that Cora finally got smart and yanked that dud Tanner Houck off the mound just in time."

Actually, in this discussion, for the most part anyway, I have declared war on stats. My primary point is how Houck was in fact pitching to the top of the Phillies order for the third time right before he was pulled. If I understand the arguments against Houck, he should have been pulled in the bottom of the 5th when leadoff hitter Bryson Stott came to bat for his third time. Instead, Cora left him in to get the third out. No big deal, just one guy--and Houck got Stott to pop up. But when Houck went to the mound for the bottom of the sixth, he was defying everything everyone else has been saying on this thread. He was left in to pitch to the top (2d, 3d, 4th hitters) of the Phillies lineup for the the third time. And he got Trea Turner to K, gave up the single to Harper, and got Castellanos to ground out. In other words, in my opinion Tanner Houck had already put to rest the "Houck can't get anyone out on his third time up" thesis. In fact, I thought he was throwing good stuff. And guess who else thought that? Alex Cora, that's who. But then came Kyle Schwarber, lefty vs. lefty. As I've already pointed out, he was more likely to hit a dinger off a lefty than a righty. But let me add that your "big swing" doesn't apply so much to this season--and we are in this season and not all of the seasons Schwarber has played. This season Schwarber's OPS vs. lefty pitchers is .622 and vs. righties is .753, which is not as big a swing as you claim (I think based on Schwarber lifetime). In addition, and I can't emphasize this too much, Houck, was pitching great in the 6th. Bleier was not. And by that I don't mean that Bleier gave up the dinger, I mean that every reliever who comes into a game with a man on base is kind of an unknown quantity because he has yet to throw his first pitch. So, no, I don't really care that much about the stats when I can see how well Houck was pitching in the sixth.

One more time. In the actual game, as opposed to all earlier games in which Houck has pitched for the Sox-- 1. The Sox reliever, a lefty going against lefty Schwarber, did in fact give up a 2 run dinger. This is indisputable. It is not based on any statistical analyses about the Sox reliever, about Tanner Houck, or about Kyle Schwarber. 2. Before Houck was pulled in the 6th inning--and this is also indisputable because it happened--he had already pitched to the first four hitters in the Phillies lineup for the third time in the game. You and mvp78 and moonslav all seem to agree that no one should ever allow Houck to face any batting order three times. And you all continue to ignore the fact that it had just freaking happened. 3. On this third time thru the Phillies order, Houck got Bryson Stott, a lefty hitter, to pop up, Trea Turner, a righty hitter who is being paid $300M because he is a very good hitter against both righty and lefty pitchers, to strike out, gave up a single to lefty batter Bryce Harper, and got righty batter Nick Castellanos to ground out to 2b. 4. To that let me add something no one else has bothered to mention. Alex Cora agrees with me more than with any of you. Why? Because Alex Cora sent Tanner Houck to pitch the 6th knowing he would fact the 2d, 3d, and 4th hitters in the Phillies lineup for the third freaking time. 5. Let me repeat that. Without exception, you and your confreres would never have sent Tanner Houck out to pitch the sixth inning. We know that because of your collective insistence that Tanner Houck cannot be trusted to face a lineup for the third time. 6. Much has been made of the fact that the next batter, Kyle Schwarber, eats righty pitchers for lunch--especially worthless bums like Tanner Houck whom you and everyone else have assumed cannot get anyone out when he faces them for the 3d time in a game. Statistically--this season, anyway--Schwaber has hit 4 dingers in 46 at bats vs lefties and 4 dingers in 82 at bats vs righties. So Shwarber was more likely to hit a dinger against Bleier than against Houck. 7. So I continue to believe that leaving Tanner Houck in the game because of how well he was pitching while facing the Phillies lineup for the third time was the right move. It is beyond question he was throwing better stuff than Bleier.

You misspelled whining. I don't get to Sox games any more, so to me the issue is whether the game is worth watching on my computer. And this year the answer is a resounding yes, and that includes Kluber, who brings almost nothing to the mound--except tons of chutzpah. I'm serious. If Bello had Kluber's repertoire, he'd still be in the low minors.

My gripe with Old Red is I think he's intellectually dishonest. To justify pulling Houck, he cites how terrible (and he wasn't terrible) Houck was 2d time through the Phillies batting order. And then he completely disregards the third freaking time through the Phillies order as irrelevant because it doesn't fit his argument. In fact, the third time through the Phillies order started in the 5th inning when Houck got Stott to pop up to Devers. Then in the 6th he struck out Trea Turner, gave up a single to Bryce Harper, and got Castellanos to ground out to Valdez. To me it was patently obvious leaving Houck in was the right move because he was pitching well. But I also don't think leaving Houck in would have won the game. Phillies pitching was too good, and the Sox bullpen absolutely stunk today. In the past, I have not liked Houck as a starter, but this year I think he has shown a lot of toughness and a better repertoire. His ERA of 5.26 is nothing to write home about, but it's still 2d best among the starters. And Houck has pitched more innings than anyone else on the team.

Reportedly, a very good tanker.

Absolutely fantastic streak that couldn't have come at a better time. Plus the Sox won the series. I stand by my criticism of Cora, but do not think that decision cost the game, not by a longshot. The Phillies pitched a gem, pure and simple. I also think Cora is one of the reasons the Sox are having a good season so far. It will be interesting to see where Paxton ends up. If he replaces Kluber, fine, but that is very unlikely.

Then Houck never should have started the game if he can't get lefties out. Also, I'd like to go back to Old Red's comment about the eye test. To me Houck was throwing good stuff all game long. That giant 2 run rally in the 4th? All singles. Plus Devers mishandled what looked like a GIDP grounder.

Oh, stop it. The freaking eye test says he got Trea Turner to K and Castellanos to ground out the third time he faced them.

One more time. Houck started the 6th against the top of the Phillies order for the third time. Why did Cora do that? Answer: Houck was pitching well. He proceeded to K Turner, give up a single to Bryce, and get Castellanos on a ground out. Question: why do you insist pulling Houck was the right move when he already got 2 outs against the top of the Phillies order?