Maxbialystock

That's what I think too. However, without Sale the Sox currently have the 2d best ERA in MLB, primarily because of the rotation (Bello, Pivetta, Crawford, Whitlock, Houck, and now Criswell). No one on Talksox can name a Red Sox team in the last 50 years that was ranked higher than 2d in team ERA. As for Grissom, I didn't expect much from him and am fine with whoever else gets to play in his stead. Next year's middle infielders could include Story, Mayer, Rafaela, Hammond, and/or Gonzalez. Who needs freaking Grissom this year or next year? I would be dishonest if I didn't admit I would love to have Sale on this Sox team. When he is the real Chris Sale, he is a joy to watch because he's probably the most professional pitcher I can remember in a Sox uniform. Focused, good defender, athletic, and with a pretty good array of pitches, made slightly better by the recent addition of a cut fastball.

Much ado about very little. BP pitchers come ago, not just season to season, but throughout the season. MLB teams can have 26 players on their active roster, of whom 13 are normally pitchers, and of those 5 are starters and 8 are relievers. So far this season (48 games, 30% of the whole season) the Sox have used 14 different relievers, not including Reyes. They are literally a dime a dozen, except of course, for Mr. Kenley Jansen, who's being paid $16M to pitch one inning every 3d game--what a freaking waste of money. The rotation--Bello, Pivetta, Crawford, Whitlock, Houck, and now Criswell--are the heart and soul of the 2024 Sox, who are, somewhat miraculously, definitely in the hunt for a wild card slot even though 70% of the season is still to be played.

Agree we don't really know about Grissom, who has played in just 13 of the Sox 48 games this season. But we know a ton about Sale. He's 35 and this is his 14th MLB season. For the 2012-2018 seasons, his WAR's were 5.8, 6.9, 6.6, 3.3, 4.9, 6.0, 6.9, which are pretty impressive. Then came 5 lousy seasons (2019-2023) with WAR's of 2.3, 0 (recovery from TJ surgery), 1.0, 0.0 (bicycle fall), and 1.7 with the Sox. And right now his WAR is 2.1, his ERA 2.22, and he leads the Atlanta rotation in IP with 56.2 with 5 quality starts and a 7-1 W-L record. He's added a 4th pitch, a cutter, to his usually effective repertoire of slider, fastball, and changeup. I think the tommy john surgery extends his effectiveness for at least 2 more years after this year--if not more. So, yes, I think the Braves got a terrific deal in this trade, especially with the Sox paying Sale's salary this year. Interestingly, the Sox gave up Yoan Moncada to get Sale, and Moncada never quite lived up to his hype. 2 good years, 2019 and 2021, with WAR's of 4.6 and 4.0.

I vastly prefer Wong over McGuire because Wong is athletic, has a good arm, and is smart. McGuire has that lefty bat which hasn't done much so far this season, and he's big and slow. Wong's OPS is .902 to McGuire's .639. I also agree with anyone who argues CERA's are really difficult to prove. Nevertheless, I've seen moonslav's numbers which say McGuire is better behind the plate. So all I'm really saying is that Cora might decide now and then to use McGuire because he, Cora, thinks McGuire might be better for that pitcher against that team.

Utter nonsense. Duran has by far the highest WAR, +2.8, on the Sox--and the 6th highest in MLB. He is good at the two things the Sox aren't good at--hitting and defense. There is no evidence mental health is a debilitating issue with him. You want debilitating, go look at Chris Sale's track record with the Sox, plus Story, Whitlock, Giolito, Casas (from swinging a freaking bat!!!!!), Yoshida, et al. Apparently, the Sox have him under control for his prime years, so what could be better? If the younger guys prove to be better than Duran, I would be fine with trading him, but not now. Oh, and the Sox use of JBJ was spot on. They lost Ellsbury to the Yankees, who vastly overpaid him, and got good value from JBJ, 2014-2020. It was dumb bringing him back in 2022, but that season was doomed anyway.

I'm sure I didn't laugh, but as recently as last season I still believed he couldn't go through a lineup 3 times--at least, until he did it several times. He does not have great heat or a fantastic curve, but he does have a good assortment of pitches and good command. Right now he's definitely headed for the AS Game.

Back to the CERA topic. I though McGuire did an excellent job tonight.

I'm one of the guilty parties, mostly because I forgot/forget he's just one player and can do only so much. Today I do think that early dinger made a difference. But of course so did Tanner Houck and the rest of the team.

Whitlock was not a good closer in 2021, period. His strength was long relief.

Sox back to .500 with a sweet win tonight at the trop--3 dingers plus Houck at his best for 7 shutout innings.

I'm no expert, but I think relief pitchers can get by with a simpler assortment of pitches, which should be less stressful on the arm.

I actually live for the current season, whatever it is, and this one fascinates me despite the fielding and hitting issues. I'm astounded--still--with the pitching, especially the rotation. And tonight Houck went 7 scoreless innings--with nasty stuff--when the Sox needed it. Meanwhile the lineup--the defense and the hitting--was pretty doggone good. At the Trop, no less. A sweep here is feasible and would be so sweet.

Don't kid yourself--or us. The defense has been awful. But your point must be that it doesn't have to stay that way. There are, as you imply, examples of pretty good defense in previous games. Same goes for the hitting, which has been abysmal in bringing in runs. And tonight Houck was once again fantastic and by that I mean nasty stuff. To my thinking a huge win because it follows the 11-3 win @ St Louis--and especially because it's at the Trop.

Wrong! Go look at the MLB standings which also show the run differentials, and you will see the correlation between W-L records and run differential is pretty close. The Sox are the exception, which reconfirms how untimely Sox hitting can be. They might lose several close games, then win, as they did last night, 11-3--or, better still, 17-0 against the Cubs--and then lapse back to scoring few runs. This is also where all those solo dingers come into play.

Sox team ERA is 2d best in MLB, and they Rays' is 20th. Sox runs scored are 13th and the Rays 17th. Sox run differential is +28 and the Rays is -29. But Sox are 23-24 and the Rays 25-23.

Duran CF OPS .784 Abreu RF .822 O'Neill LF .932 Devers 3B .939 Wong DH .916 Smith 1B .476 Hamilton SS .757 McGuire C .663 Rafaela SS .569 Six lefty bats for the good guys. Grissom gets a day off with Hamilton @ 2b. Since .663 is a good OPS for a catcher, only two in the Sox lineup--Rafaela and Smith--can be considered weak hitters. Duran, Abreu, Wong, Hamilton, and Rafaela are all in their 1st or 2d full seasons.

Wild applause for last night's win. The Sox were just along for the ride.

I don't like the flatness or the heat, but there are lots of people who love Florida. Why anyone would want to live in Tampa is beyond me, but I do give them credit for staying away from the Trop. The Rays, on the other hand, are absolutely fascinating in how they stay competitive with such low salaries.

Wow. Just wow. I think you are on to something. I especially like the phrase, "exploding MLB payrolls" because I think they are ridiculous. It's not just the money they get, but the fact that it's guaranteed every single year for 10 years or more. And while those salaries are going up and up and up, revenues are going down and down and down.

Is it possible that the Sox, who reportedly are now worth more than $5B, are in fact cash poor? Attendance is down--in fact, way down from 2019, the last season before covid. I'll bet TV and radio revenues are down too. Same goes for online viewership via mlb.com. I read somewhere their profit margin is $62M, which looks awfully small to me given the total cost of everything, including players, especially those (Story, Yoshida, Giolito, Sale, etc) who don't actually play for the Sox.

I agree JH is ultimately responsible. But, first and foremost, we must acknowledge he is easily the best Sox owner ever because MLB in the John Henry era has been far more competitive than back in the Sox first quarter century (1901-26). The Yankees have outspent the Sox, 2002-2024, but have 1 WS to the Sox 4. I do agree John Henry cut payroll steadily after the 2019 season and with Chaim Bloom as his CBO. This especially applied to pitching. In his defense, however, he was paying a bundle for David Price after he went to the Dodgers and for Chris Sale, who spent big parts of 4 seasons (2020-2023) on the IL. I think Price and Sale convinced JH big contracts for starters were just stupid. This year so far he has 5 starters--Bello, Pivetta, Crawford, Houck, and Criswell--who are costing him $12M in salary and doing a pretty good job. I can't say definitively whether JH is right or wrong on the current track, but do think he has earned the right to be wrong, at least for awhile. Right now I think the only big money player who is earning his pay is Rafael Devers. Story, Giolito, Yoshida, Sale, and Jansen are overpaid.

The rotation this year is a freaking triumph, nothing less--without Montgomery, Giolito, Sale, Eovaldi, ERod, whoever. It's far and away the best part of the 2024 Sox. And it might not last, I agree. For example, Houck and Crawford lead in IP with 58 each, which ranks them 14th in MLB for most IP. But then a big drop down to Bello with 36, Criswell 29, and Pivetta 26. Whitlock with 18 IP may be headed for TJ surgery. Bello got hit hard by the Cardinals in his last start--7 hits, 3 dingers, and 5 ER in 4.2 innings.

Of the top ten payrolls in MLB, five (Yankees, Phillies, Braves, Dodgers, and Cubs) have winning records and five (Mets, Astros, Rangers, Blue Jays, and Giants) do not. Of the bottom ten payrolls, three are doing well: 22d Brewers, 27-19; 25th Orioles, 29-15; and 26th Guardians, 30-17. And of the middle ten payrolls (11th through 20th), just three have winning records: Seattle, 25-22; Minnesota, 24-22; and Kansas City, 29-19. And this. The Yankees are the presumptive rivals of the Sox and have won an insane 27 World Series, by far the most in MLB. They also spend, on average, more than any other MLB team on payroll because they can afford to. Since John Henry became the Sox owner in 2002, the Sox have won 4 WS and the Yankees 1.

Sox payroll this year is 11th of 30 teams--$182M. Of that, $24M goes to Sale and Turner, who are both playing elsewhere, and $62M goes to Story, Yoshida, Giolito, and Whitlock, all of whom are on the IL. Right now it looks like Yoshida is the only one who might return, and he is certifiably a DH who can't hit. I hasten to add that none of Story, Yoshida, Giolito, and Whitlock has played/pitched to a level justifying their salaries. Story is a vastly overpaid defensive SS/2b who has yet to deliver at the plate in 3 seasons with the Sox. He makes the vastly overpaid Chris Sale (or David Price) look like the bargain of the century. Of the remaining $96M, a total of $12M pays the rotation of Bello, Pivetta, Crawford, Houck, and Criswell. And that rotation is the one real strength of this Sox team. Meanwhile, Kelsey Jansen is paid $16M to close and has pitched a total of 16 innings to date while he basically uses just one pitch, a cutter. In other words, whatever brain trust John Henry employs is demonstrably brain dead about how to build a competitive MLB team. Chaim Bloom gets most of the blame, but not all of it. He's gone, and maybe the new guy is an improvement, but it's arguably too soon for JH to believe he can be trusted to spend big.

Typically short game thread for a win, especially an 11-3 win. We crave losses, especially ones with weak hitting and lousy fielding--something we can get out teeth into. I personally harbor deep resentment toward Devers with those 5 dingers in 5 games--and cling to the solo shots. To justify that $313M/year he's making, he needs to homer every game, with at least half of them with the bases loaded. Plus errorless defense with great range. Plus coaching the likes of Grissom and Rafaela to improve their hitting. Plus, now that Kelsey Jansen's cutter looks very hittable, close some games.