FredLynn

In fairness, Clement did get hit in the head and was never the same. Still, the list of his failures is extensive. Here's an article about it: The Epstein 11: 2003: Keith Foulke, three years/$20.5 million. (Stabilized the closer position. Closed out 2004 World Series.) 2004: Edgar Renteria, four years/$40 million. (Bought out after one dismal season for an additional $12 million. Renteria played in Boston for one year for $22 million.) 2005: Julio Lugo, four years/$36 million. (Hit .251 in three seasons. Part of the revolving door for Red Sox shortstops since Epstein traded Nomar Garciaparra.) 2005: Matt Clement, three years/$25 million. (An 18-11 record with a 5.09 ERA in two seasons. One All-Star Game.) 2006: Coco Crisp, three years/$15.5 million (Was put in the unfortunate position of replacing Damon, who had 197 hits in his final year in Boston. Ultimately replaced by the emerging Ellsbury.) 2007: Daisuke Matsuzaka, six years/$52 million, plus a $52 million posting fee that did not count against payroll. (Won 2007 World Series. A .620 career winning percentage. Hasn't pitched 170 innings in a season since debuting in 2007. Has averaged five wins over the last three seasons.) 2007: JD Drew, five years/$70 million. (Average season in Boston: 121 games, .264 average, 16 HR, 57 RBI.) 2010: John Lackey, five years,/$82.5 million. (A 26-23 record, 5.26 ERA, 375 IP, 436 hits so far.) 2010: Mike Cameron, two years/$15.5 million. (A .219 average in 81 games over two seasons. Traded in July of this year. The team moved Ellsbury out of center field upon acquiring Cameron.) 2010: Adrian Beltre, one year/$10 million. (.321 AVG, 49 2B, 28 HR, 102 RBI, All-Star.) 2011: Carl Crawford, seven years/$142 million. (Dismal first season in Boston, but too early to pass judgment.) It might appear at first glance that Ortiz, Epstein's biggest player acquisition score, is conspicuously missing from that list. Ortiz certainly became a star in Boston, but he was not brought there to be one. In December 2002 at the Opryland Hotel in Nashville, Tenn., during Epstein's first winter meetings as GM of the Red Sox, he jousted with the A's Beane over the true object of their affection, Arizona slugger Erubiel Durazo. Durazo went to Oakland and Epstein settled for Jeremy Giambi. When spring training broke in 2003, Ortiz was fourth on the depth chart, behind Giambi, Shea Hillenbrand and Kevin Millar. Epstein might not be responsible for total authorship of every one of those deals. Ownership has its predilections, and general managers often make deals of which they disapprove. But in Epstein's nine years, those 11 major signings totaled $543.5 million; during the same period, the Tampa Bay Rays' entire payroll amounted to $315.8 million on 225 players. Of those 11, only one, perhaps two -- Foulke and Beltre -- can be considered unqualified successes. The 2003 Red Sox introduced then abandoned a disastrous Bill James concept called the "closer-by-committee," the thought being that a real save situation might not occur in the ninth inning, but rather in, say, the seventh. That winter, Epstein signed Foulke, and Boston won the World Series a year later. Beane is sometimes maligned for being lionized despite never winning an ALCS game (never mind advancing to the World Series), but there is no question he revolutionized the front-office game -- who gets jobs, how those jobs are done and what statistical and cultural values are important -- and transformed the position of general manager from anonymous to glamorous. But if the position is now worthy of Hollywood and big money and credit for a team's architecture, it is only appropriate that accountability be part of the equation. If the man running the game from the dugout is now considered a "mid-level manager," according to the Moneyball doctrine founded by Sandy Alderson and perfected by Beane and by Epstein, maybe he isn't the one whose bags should be packed when the plan fails.

Bravo! I come on this board occasionally and have posted this year that I didn't think the Red Sox had a chance to make a significant run because of their lack of pitching. I pointed out that no team has won the ALC in at least 10 years if they finished lower than fourth in overall ERA. That is a fact-and there is a reason for it. I was soundly bashed here for being contrary to the general opinion that this is our year. Guess what: is September our pitching reared its ugly head and we won ONE GAME when we scored fewer than SIX RUNS. We finished NINTH in overall ERA in the AL this year, and we got, in essence, what we deserved. I wish it were different, but this is not fantasy. What I wish were true is rarely true. I think that those who have irrational exuberance for this team next year need to listen a little more acutely to the facts when they are presented.

Umm...yes this WILL happen again in 2012 if Epstein remains in his job. In fact, it will happen again even if he leaves, but at least then healing can take place. It will take years to fix the mess he put this franchise in. Look at all the long term contracts and money tied up in losers that he has saddled us with over the years: Lackey, Crawford, Cameron, Matsusaka....Jenks-all recently. The list gets much longer if you look back a few years: Lugo, Renteria, Clement, Byun-Hyung Kim etc etc. No manager could have won a ring with the dregs he was given by this GM this year. "It" is going to happen EVERY year until Epstein is fired.

You can add me to that list. Epstein MUST go for this team to become relevant again. The list of FA signings that he has saddled us with reads like a grade B horror movie. Its time to clean house. No more Boston Red Sox Country Club Spa; no more whining by the players; no more beer in the dugout; no more staring down the manager when he comes out to remove a pitcher from the game; no more inattentiveness to fundamental baseball skills. We are going nowhere with Epstein as GM and every year he remains is another year in third place.

They will not be starting, no. But all of them will see action. I agree that Beckett/Lester/Bedard are a decent enough starting three. But you cannot win that way. You need competence at nearly every level. After that we have only Bard/Aceves/Papelbon. Six pitchers cannot win the ALC by themselves. Our offense is good, but good pitching will shut them down. I don't expect them to make it out of round 1-if they get there.

This loss is not Weiland's fault. He has been put into an impossible situation, trying to win a game for these LOSERS all by himself. I don't blame him. He will eventually be fine. Its very important that the Rays not only win tonite, but tomorrow as well. They MUST win the WC if EPSTINK is going to be given his pink slip. He will have nowhere to hide if this team blows the WC. Its what has to happen for success in future years. We all know it.

I call 'em as I see 'em. I said much earlier here that we do not have the pitching to win the ALC because no team in at least the last decade has won the ALC having finished lower than fourth in overall ERA. Some here doubted that. Now everyone can see its true. Now I am telling you that in order for this franchise to right the ship, Epstein and Francona must go. Eventually people will see that that is also true. The odds are higher that they will be fired if we blow the WC lead. We should all hope that happens.

Thats great news. Does that mean you won't be posting here any more?

If we make it that far, we WILL lose in the ALDS

Precisely. If we can manage to get swept by the Rays, its just a three game lead. We are perfectly capable of completing our task and blowing that lead. Its very important that that is what we do, to maximize the chance that the owners' hands are forced to act and rid ourselves of our incompetent GM and manager.

This team is TOAST this year...and next year...and the year after that. We will win NOTHING until our GM and manager are both fired. And that could happen if we manage to blow the WC lead. Thats why I am rooting for the Rays to do just that. Short term loss, long term gain. Sometimes you have to build on the future by sacrificing the present.

Instead, we get a GONZO BUM. Getting him was a big mistake. Here is a player who fattens up his numbers against pathetic teams and CHOKES big time against most of the contenders.

Anyone got a link for this game? FOX out here has the damn Giants on TV. Thanks

Its POSSIBLE to win a ring and not be in the top 4 in pitching; it just hasn't happened in a decade, and with good reason IMO. I think that the Yankees are a much better balanced team right now, unfortunately. They are #3 in overall pitching. I posted this on another board: I think that in order to have any chance for a ring we will need to upgrade both our SP and pen by one arm each and eliminate the bottom feeders in both categories. Right now the Mariners are at #4 in ERA in the AL at 3.55. Assuming that we will need to at least equal that and assuming that the Yankees will be our major competition for the AL pennant we can look at who on each pitching staff is over the 3.55 number and who is below it: Under 3.55: Red Sox: Bard (1.81) Albers (2.09) Beckett (2.17) Lester (3.23) Aceves (3.28) (Buchholtz-3.48) Yankees: Garrison (0.00-new) Ayala (1.24) Robertson (1.54) Rivera (1.83) Wade (1.88) CC (2.56) Garcia (3.23) Colon (3.29) Logan (3.29) Noesi (3.34) Pitchers over 3.55: Red Sox: Papelbon (3.59) Morales (4.23) Wheeler (4.67) Wakefield (5.15) Miller (5.45) Lackey (6.20) Williams (9.53) Yankees: Nova (4.12) Burnett (4.21) Hughes (8.24) You can see that the Yankees are a much superior club when it comes to pitching right now. I think we would be best served by getting rid of Williams and replacing him with an excellent LHRP and releasing Miller and getting a very good #3-4 SP (4 if CB returns). Wakefield would be in the pen and his job would be mopup only. In the playoffs we would then have a competitive SP rotation of Beckett/Lester/CB or new guy/new guy or....gulp...Lackey. In the pen we have Papelbon (not NEARLY as good as the Yankee closer)/Bard/Albers/Aceves/Wheeler (ERA since May 21, his return date from the DL: 1.84 with a BAA of .185)/new guy/and Wakefield for mopup duty. Morales's tenure would depend on whether or not CB comes back. Thats the best we can do right now. Given the failures of Wakefield, Lackey, Miller, Jenks, and Williams it may not be good enough, especially when you look at the Yankee pitching staff. But I will tell you this: if we don't upgrade BOTH our starting rotation and our pen by at least one arm each, we will be promptly bounced out before we can reach the WS.

Are Williams and Jenks going to be on the postseason roster? How about Morales, ERA 4.26? I admit that the pen is better off than our rotation, but we need BOTH to be top flight to compete for a ring. Hitting alone will not get us to where we want to be, even with two very good SP.

The problem is that THOSE GUYS ARE STILL ON THE ROSTER! If we can lose at least one of them and upgrade, I think we DO have a shot at a ring.

You are talking about bashing your way into the playoffs with a mediocre pitching staff. That can and does happen. I never said that you cannot bash your way into the playoffs. I DID say that once you are there, pitching is much more important. We WILL bash our way into the postseason this year; and I think we will make a quick exit if we do not significantly upgrade at BOTH SP and in the PEN. Just can't see us doing it with Miller, Wakefield, Lackey, and Williams on the roster.

Last I checked Lester is pitching again. You can argue that the facts are not relevant to the case, like the fact that no team has won a WS with Adrian Gonzalez on the team. I think that the saying, "Pitching and defense wins rings" has merit, and that the fact I presented is proof of sorts that that saying is true.

Its also irrelevant. No one has won the WS in April either. Should we consider that?

Not misleading at all. Its a fact: NO TEAM HAS WON THE ALCS WITH AN OVERALL TEAM ERA IN LESS THAN THE #4 POSITION IN THE LAST DECADE. That is not disputable. Neither is the fact that we are now at #9. Furthermore, last I checked, Miller, Lackey, Wakefield, and Williams are all still performing for the team and are on the active roster.

Here is how important pitching is to winning rings. Listed are the AL champs along with their position in terms of ERA and their actual ERA: 2010: Rangers; 4 (3.93) 2009: Yankees; 4 (4.26) 2008: Rays; 2 (3.82) 2007: Sox; 1 (3.87) 2006: Tigers; 1 (3.84) 2005: White Sox 2 (3.61) 2004: Red Sox; 3 (4.18) 2003: Yankees; 3 (4.02) 2002: Angels; 2 (3.69) 2001: Yankees; 3 (4.02) Right now: 2011: Red Sox; 9 (3.93) See the pattern? Over the last decade no team had finished less than FOURTH in ERA in the league and won a AL championship. Conclusion: we do not have a snowball's chance in hell with our current pitching staff; we need a quality SP NOW

Ortiz looked like a Little Leaguer at that AB. Too bad. Swung at ball 4. Could have brought the tying run to the plate.

No options left: By Gordon EdesFORT MYERS, Fla. -- Lefthanded pitcher Andrew Miller is out of options, which means that if he spends any time with the Boston Red Sox this season and the club then elects to send him to Pawtucket, he must clear waivers. That would give the 29 other major-league teams a chance to claim him for the waiver price.