jung

Five more days to wait till the first spring game. Feel like I am crawling over the finish line. Can't come fast enough.

You could make the case that it was long overdue just based on the liability issues. You have to believe that the other 19 teams did this without being caught in the klieg lights. The shame of it is this whole issue became a metaphor for the failure of the team, a lack of focus and discipline and the rest of it. I am not happy that this team will be under a microscope this year unless they are just taking the league or at least the division apart. Can't change that either.

Thanks for the explanation. I guess what I could not distinguish is why the liability is different on other legs of a road but the distinction must be that you are not getting into your own car at the airport and driving home. As for the new rules just being a PR move I am not sure that makes sense. Again, so many times this offseason people including myself said this team would be under a microscope this season. I don't think the rule change makes that go away. However now media types won't just be looking for the behavior but will be looking for behavior contrary to the rules never mind contrary to anything else. If anything the media will be that much more motivated. I suspect these guys are going to go even farther to try to monitor what is going on in that clubhouse. I also suspect that V realized he was not going to nip the media efforts in the bud with this new rule and even likely new it would just exacerbate media interest in keeping an eagle eye out for this story. Hence I don't think he can afford to make this a toothless rule that he does not intend the players adhering to. In fact does this not create a situation where the player has to bring beer into the clubhouse since it will no longer just be there.

The tough thing to me about having given up Masterson is that VMart was here and gone. I thought that it was a worthwhile move at the time because I thought the Sox really had given themselves a chance to improve the team past the sort of one year rent a player approach. If you told me that the Sox would simply let VMart go like that then I would not have given up Masterson for him. That is the part that surprised me.

One thing I am going to be interested to see is to what extent all of the publicity given to Beckett's taking a long time between pitches changes the way batters approach at bats against him. That whole thing is a two way street. Now that the league's batters have seen the time between pitches played up the way it has been what is to prevent batters from stepping out just as Josh is ready to pitch. i think I would find it much more frustrating as a pitcher to have guys constantly stepping out just as I am about to go into my windup. If I were a batter and Josh has been this vocal about the issue I would make it a two way street. In addition if it does get to be a pissing contest between Josh and whole teams of batters I would expect umps to just tell Josh to get on the rubber and throw the damned ball. To say nothing of whether this is anything like the "advantage" Josh thinks it is. It would appear to be easier to upset a pitchers groove by continually taking longer periods between pitches and you surely weaken your defensive readiness regardless of Beckett comments that he went to his teammates and they said it did not matter to them.

Maybe....I think if you look though you will find more band boxes around the league not less. Hitting and offense have become for baseball the equivalent of protecting the quarterbacks and receivers in football. I think it is a shame because I actually find pitchers duals way more interesting than slugfests. That said, I think you will still find more bandboxes now than before and less focus on speed with more on power. Paying $21M per for seven years for a guy that depends on speed as an integral part of his game really made very little sense I think. You do still have a few big ball parks in the AL but they are few and far between these days. Detroit actually got a bigger park but Tiger Stadium could hardly have been smaller at one point.

I agree with thinking of the top 6 hitters in the lineup as a bunch with the power hitters in the power hitting spots. Ortiz presents almost the same problem for V that CC presents. He does not want to bat 6th with nobody behind him to protect him either. The difference between the two players is that the Sox have six more years invested in CC at $21M per and have one year invested in Ortiz at $14. CC depends on speed in his game and Ortiz does not. Which guy do you think they are more likely to accommodate? On top of that regardless of what he says or what he wants which guy of the two do you think is more capable of handling that 6 spot role. Is Ortiz the more flexible player, the more seasoned player that can handle that role or is CC? Is Ortiz playing for a contract next year or is CC? On top of everything else regardless of discussions of extending the lineup in reality I think the best shot the Sox have to succeed is to maximize those six batters. If the guys at the top get on and the power hitters drive them in they should be able to make up for the weakness at the bottom. Assuming he comes back to something close to form, CC at 2 sounds to me like the best way to maximize those top 6. I do agree that wherever they stick CC outside of 2, they have to convince him of why that role will work out for him and then they have to teach him what he needs to know to succeed from that position in the lineup. He clearly has no confidence in batting outside of the 2 hole and really does not know how to approach his plate appearances from lower in the batting order. You can likely make a case to CC for why 6 is right but you will still have to set expectations for him and still have to convince him that it is the best role for him and the team. For a multitude of reasons I think 7, 8 or 9 simply won't work as the only explanation V can make are explanations that are going to sound to CC like " we think you are a liability higher in the order". Everything is going to sound to CC like, the way you are using me is a reflection of what the owner said about signing me in the off season. Even when he finally started to hit some later in the season he looked lost down there. He looked like he had no idea what was expected of him nor what he was doing. He was just up there hackin'. Here I go right back to where I was. He never ever should have been brought to a big market team especially one with a loaded lineup and the kind of expectations we have for the Red Sox. Worse than that, the Sox were warned not to do it. Never should have been brought to this park to play 81 games a year as well. Now the Sox are stuck trying to make the best of a bad situation. In the short run they have till just before 2014 at most to figure it out. In the long run they have the term of CC's contract to figure it out.

We will see what Ellsbury is willing to do and what the Sox are willing to do when the time comes but that is the other shoe dropping from the Crawford deal. A. They never should have brought him here in the first place B. They paid him so much money that the gap between what he makes and what Ellsbury makes is simply to great. Ells is not going to just eat that gap. Why should he. CC is locked at $21. CC at Ortiz money would have made a big difference in how it will likely go with Ells and I don't like CC at $14 either. I will never understand CC at $21. I could make a case for Drew at $14 easier than CC at $21 especially in this park with the team the Sox already had at the time. CC may be the worst Sox signing in my history of watching this team when you combine the initial mistake (signing him at all) with the scale of the mistake (what they signed him for). As much as I hated the Lackey deal even that one rates higher on the sanity scale then the Crawford deal although by degrees only.

This has gotten to be a ridiculous discussion. What the hell, we will just line everybody up based on their Advanced Stats and that will be the batting order. In fact who needs a Manager or a GM for that matter. All you need is a computer an adding machine and an accountant and that can be your Manager and Baseball Operations. Simple. Probably what some would like to think anyway. I think Pedrioa should be batting 3rd in this lineup with Crawford batting in front of him because of Pedroia's stats and Crawford's stats. If you take the one anomaly of 2011 off the charts Crawford's OBP is better than Pedroia's but Pedroia's OPS is better than Crawford's and Crawford has more speed than Pedroia. I think Ells should remain batting 1st because of all his stats from 2011 the power numbers are most suspect to me and Ells is the most natural lead off man the Sox have. Although if Pedroia had to lead off and Ells bat 3d that might not be terrible except putting Ells 3rd forces him to produce power numbers. MLB is littered with guys that simply could not produce power numbers when their position in the batting order demanded power numbers. MLB is also littered with guys that produced great power numbers for one year. By stats alone really Ells should go to 3rd but that not only forces him to produce power numbers but forces Pedey to the top of the batting order unless the Sox do something like stick Avilas at the top of the order. Frankly even that makes more sense than sticking Crawford at the bottom of the order. Least we forget looking at stats alone is likely how Crawford got on this team in the first place. I don't see how being an absolutist pays off when you actually have the job. If I look at these guys and try to cobble together a line up that gets the Sox the best chance of a good result for the money they have invested. That is based on the stats in an absolute sense and the player 's that produce those stats. The only thing I do agree with is that he does not belong here. There is actually no place to put him that works against his $21M salary for one thing. Oh I forgot, money should not count. In addition Crawford is a speed guy on a team that plays in a park that historically does not reward speed enough to really make two speed guys at the top of the order make sense. Unless they brought in night crews and moved the fences back and found the old Astroturf surface from Houston and laid that down, regardless of the fact that Tito did not use Crawford properly last year this is still not a park that will ever really reward a speed oriented team enough to make a bunch of speed guys pay off. Nothing about Fenway makes it a speed park. By the way, the Sox have one year to figure this out. They either have to make Crawford attractive enough to somebody to get him off this team or very likely lose Ells cause he is arb eligible for 2013 and then he is a free agent in 2014. So if you think that Crawford's pre-2011 stats don't merit his batting 2nd on this team AND have some method for restoring him to at least some stature that allows the Sox to pay some money and move his contract then prepare to lose Ells. The Sox would be out of their minds to keep Crawford and Ells on this team together paying two guys over $20M a year to play outfield positions so that they can continue this ridiculous argument internally for another 4 years after that. If 2012 proves anything it is that there are limits to what the Sox are willing to spend in player payroll regardless of what LL has to say. There are limits to their willingness to pay for their mistakes into the foreseeable future as well. Paying 3 guys and maybe 4 by then over $20M a year to play in the field when you really will need more pitching is the same sort of nonsense that produced the 12-8 box score teams of Sox yesteryear. So ya' better find a way to restore Crawford because you are either going to have to rely on him for the next five years or move him before 2014. That will be the next argument. Unless the Sox pay both of them they are cheap bastards and should be hung by the fingernails until they agree to keep them both.

This has gotten to be a ridiculous discussion. What the hell, we will just line everybody up based on their Advanced Stats and that will be the batting order. In fact who needs a Manager or a GM for that matter. All you need is a computer an adding machine and an accountant and that can be your Manager and Baseball Operations. Simple. Probably what some would like to think anyway. I think Pedrioa should be batting 3rd in this lineup with Crawford batting in front of him because of Pedroia's stats and Crawford's stats. If you take the one anomaly of 2011 off the charts Crawford's OBP is better than Pedroia's but Pedroia's OPS is better than Crawford's and Crawford has more speed than Pedroia. I think Ells should remain batting 1st because of all his stats from 2011 the power numbers are most suspect to me and Ells is the most natural lead off man the Sox have. Although if Pedroia had to lead off and Ells bat 3d that might not be terrible except putting Ells 3rd forces him to produce power numbers. MLB is littered with guys that simply could not produce power numbers when their position in the batting order demanded power numbers. MLB is also littered with guys that produced great power numbers for one year. By stats alone really Ells should go to 3rd but that not only forces him to produce power numbers but forces Pedey to the top of the batting order unless the Sox do something like stick Avilas at the top of the order. Frankly even that makes more sense than sticking Crawford at the bottom of the order. Least we forget looking at stats alone is likely how Crawford got on this team in the first place. I don't see how being an absolutist pays off when you actually have the job. If I look at these guys and try to cobble together a line up that gets the Sox the best chance of a good result for the money they have invested. That is based on the stats in an absolute sense and the player 's that produce those stats. The only thing I do agree with is that he does not belong here. There is actually no place to put him that works against his $21M salary for one thing. Oh I forgot, money should not count. In addition Crawford is a speed guy on a team that plays in a park that historically does not reward speed enough to really make two speed guys at the top of the order make sense. Unless they brought in night crews and moved the fences back and found the old Astroturf surface from Houston and laid that down, regardless of the fact that Tito did not use Crawford properly last year this is still not a park that will ever really reward a speed oriented team enough to make a bunch of speed guys pay off. Nothing about Fenway makes it a speed park. By the way, the Sox have one year to figure this out. They either have to make Crawford attractive enough to somebody to get him off this team or very likely lose Ells cause he is arb eligible for 2013 and then he is a free agent in 2014. So if you think that Crawford's pre-2011 stats don't merit his batting 2nd on this team AND have some method for restoring him to at least some stature that allows the Sox to pay some money and move his contract then prepare to lose Ells. The Sox would be out of their minds to keep Crawford and Ells on this team together paying two guys over $20M a year to play outfield positions so that they can continue this ridiculous argument internally for another 4 years after that. If 2012 proves anything it is that there are limits to what the Sox are willing to spend in player payroll regardless of what LL has to say. There are limits to their willingness to pay for their mistakes into the foreseeable future as well. Paying 3 guys and maybe 4 by then over $20M a year to play in the field when you really will need more pitching is the same sort of nonsense that produced the 12-8 box score teams of Sox yesteryear. So ya' better find a way to restore Crawford because you are either going to have to rely on him for the next five years or move him before 2014. That will be the next argument. Unless the Sox pay both of them they are cheap bastards and should be hung by the fingernails until they agree to keep them both.

This has not been your argument to this point. Your argument to this point has been that he should be placed 7th based on his 2011 stat line or I guess actually that he should be placed 7th in this lineup based on his career stat line and that he should have to prove himself worthy of the 2 hole. I don't agree based on 2011 being an anomaly to his career production. Others are arguing that he should go to the 2 hole if he is healthy and given the opportunity to prove he can't succeed from there. I agree with that position and would leave him in the 2 hole until there is simply no doubt that he can not get it done. I don't think using Drew here as an example makes much sense either.

Whether money should be the argument doesn't matter. Money is always an issue. You can live in some fantasy world where it does not matter but it ignores the truth of the issue. It always matters. As I said earlier I could buy 6th but even that seems a misuse of Carls talents. If they explain it to him and leave him in that spot then I can maybe see Carl possibly performing under those circumstances. As for taking a just suck it up and take it approach with Carl that is exactly one of the reasons why they never should have brought him here. He is not that kind of tough. Never gave anybody any indication that he was that kind of tough....did not belong with a major market team. The Sox in their infinite wisdom decided to ignore all of that. The ultimate over-utilization of numbers without any consideration for the flesh and blood body responsible for the numbers. I think Carl is capable of producing at least the numbers one might have expected as ridiculous as those are for $21M per year. However I think the chance of his doing so is drastically reduced if he is down there in the 7, 8 or 9 holes and the 6 hole may be a problem for him as well. Looking at his 2011 OBP and OPS as a means of placing him in the lineup ignores who Carl is. But heck....he's a baseball player right. All baseball players are is compilations of numbers.....stats. I don't buy the argument that his career stats say he belongs 7, 8 or 9 in this lineup because I can read. All you have to do is look at his advanced stats by year at Fangraphs. He fell off the charts in 2011. Worse than that....he has made it obvious that he does not belong on a major market team. Even if he produces from the 6 hole, then he will be criticized for not producing 2 hole numbers. He obviously handles criticism so well. Then again this is the Red Sox. We hire translators at the drop of a hat. We could hire a sports phycologist just for Carl. Could have his couch right there in the dugout. This is a losing situation for the Sox and it is only going to be a matter of how much they lose. One truism that crosses sports lines is "horses for courses". We want to put our money on a horse that is not a mudder while the rain is pouring down and then we want to blame the horse for not showing well. I would like them to have an opportunity to get the most out of this they can and frankly I don't think what we think matters in the overall anyway. I very much suspect that if he is healthy and able to play, V will put him in the 2 hole. As it is now, Carl has almost forced V's hand. The only way V will be able to put him down there in the 6 hole will be with an explanation of what is expected from there and a commitment to support his effort from there. Even with that I think Carl will simply not get it. The media will attack him insisting on an answer to questions of what he thinks about it and he does not have the media presence nor the ability to hide his feelings. I suspect that unless the Sox are going to play him while he is recovering, another thing I would prefer them not do, there is no way V will be able to explain 7, 8 or 9 to Carl. The whole thing is a giant cluster **** with no happy solutions. No wonder we get 108 years of futility and 2 years of triumph.

Another convenience. Please don't ignore the things I post because its convenient. You just force me to repeat myself. Carl is from all indications not dogging it.....just the opposite. This is not an issue of a kind of entitlement that that may be polarizing that certain star players might insist upon. This is not certain players deciding that games they are not directly active in end in the 7th inning. This is a guy telling you why he should never have been brought to a big market team. This is a guy telling you what will make it hard for him to succeed although no player really wants to do that which makes it even more believable in Carl's case. Now he is here. Heck lets ask him to bat from the other side of the plate. Take one for the team Carl. So I am not doing an about face at all. You are choosing to read what you want to read and ignore what you want to ignore.

What do people think it means when the recommendation on a player is not to bring him to a major market team? Do you think that means he has not gotten jaywalking down to the art form that us big city dwellers have gotten it down to? It means that just these sorts of issues....where he bats.....what other players think of him are going to be roadblocks to his success. Were you actually comfortable hearing Carl talk about the effect other players had on him when they commented on his position in the batting order? As uncomfortable as I was hearing it I don't doubt his sincerity. So you wanna' bury him for good.....you want to really feel the weight of that $20M a season. Go ahead....be my guest....bury Carl in the lineup. This was one of the all time whopper dumbest signings ever. We just as soon eat it to its full measure. What the hell else is new.

Using stats from Carl's batting lower in the lineup is just a convenient use of the data. He spent most of the season at the bottom of the order. The 2 hole is where Carl deserves to hit because that is where he produced his best numbers before coming to Boston and that is I guess why the Sox brought him here. I can not stress enough that this is a problem of the Sox own making. They made this mess. If Carl were not at least from appearances doing everything he can to right the ship then I would be less likely to put him back in the 2 hole. He is not a 7 hitter in this lineup under any circumstances. 6 might be a possibility were it not for the fact that he can't make use of his speed from there and the biggest complaint people have had with the contract is that speed is a big part of his game and you have to doubt his speed will be there later in his career. The Sox made this mess. Sticking him in the 7 hole is simply not the best way out of it. There is really no way out of it. There is only getting the player you thought you were "overpaying" from day one or not even getting that and having the everyday player equivalent of Lackey. He won't get the at bats nor the opportunity to use his speed from down in the lineup. Believe me nobody is less happy than I at this mess....nobody. However I don't want to be sitting here two years from now saying "see....see I told ya' he was a bum." I want the Sox and Carl to find a way to make the best of what is to me a horrid situation that never should have happened. I hate to say it but the Sox actually deserve Carl just getting dumped into the bottom or the lineup so that they can take the full weight for their stupidity.

OK fine... place CC in the lineup based on production. Do you want his numbers from Tampa Bay or the one year anomaly trying to make a transition that probably never should have happened in the first place. Like I said, the Sox made this bed. Now they have to find a way to make the best of it. Taking CC's 2011 numbers and basing his position in the lineup makes no sense....not today....not tomorrow ....not the next day. His career numbers are what the Sox want and his career numbers place him in the 2 hole at least if you want the best shot at seeing the production that he was brought here to give the Sox. And.... thinking that the amount of money the Sox have invested in the CC does not effect how they handle him is just naive. If the guy was doggin' it that would be one thing. However there is no evidence that he is doggin' it. In fact all the evidence that we have is to the contrary. I still think bringing here was ill advised. Hated it from the start and hate it now. Just not willing to cut off my nose to spite my face.

The Sox were warned that CC was going to have a tough time going from a small market team to a large market team but they went ahead anyway. Now they have to find a way to make the best of this for the team. You don't cut off your nose to spite your face and you don't take a guy that now accounts for over 10% of your rather bloated payroll and dump him down in the bottom of the lineup telling him he can earn his way back. I would put him 2 and leave him there. Stars looking to preserve the kinds of entitlements that might polarize the team are not the same thing as a guy working his tail off and trying to make what for him is clearly already a large transition. That the Sox are left to lay in the bed they made for themselves is one thing. Dumping a bunch of manure into the bed is something else again.

The Sox have another $130M invested in Crawford. Forget the put him at the bottom of the order nonsense. You are going to take a guy you have that kind of money into that has already told you publicly and with a fair bit of emotion that he has an issue with batting down in the order and put him down in the order insisting that he earn his way back to the 2 hole? You can't be serious. I am the last guy on the planet to promote mollycoddling athletes but for better or worse the Sox have put themselves in a position where pulling this prove you can bat from the 2 hole nonsense is just that....nonsense. I guess I can give it high marks for originality....a $21M #7 hitter.

I would be OK with Pedey leading off although I still would prefer Ells there and Pedey 3rd. You can make a case for either but Ells is faster and I am more inclined to think the one number that will be difficult for Ells to maintain from 2011 were his power numbers....maybe not. Power numbers when they are not necessarily expected of you are easier to come by than when you are put into a position where you have to produce good power numbers. Pedey does well from the 3 hole and Ells obviously does well from the 1. I just don't see any earth shattering advantage for flipping them.

I am OK with a guy being asked to play his way into shape as long as he is not still damaged as far as the surgical repair being sound. I don't think there is a choice with regard to ST workouts because you are never really going to have that opportunity again. As long as you are sound you should play. So I was OK with AGons playing from the start last year and under the circumstances don't think holding him out would have done anything positive.

Like I said early maybe I could have swallowed one move of CC in the lineup with an explanation to him from the manager and an intention to move him back. Regardless of the fact that moving him was not his biggest issue last year, the number of times Tito moved him turned the whole thing into a sad joke. That's right.....sad. It was actually sad watching Tito flounder around as if there was some magic to be found in batting him 7th today and 5th tomorrow. It was ridiculous.

But I think we are saying the same thing here. If he is truly ready by opening day, he plays if not he waits. If he is making fast progress that only increases the chances that he is 100% for opening day. Agons was a question mark but was 100% by opening day last year and I think he proved that. He did not run into shoulder issues again until the all star break and I am not sure he really tweaked his shoulder even then. He claims that he did not tweak his shoulder and in fact no Red Sox authority claimed that he had. The press claimed that he had.

I could be wrong on this but if CC's wrist is not right I don't think he is anywhere in the batting order. A dink here or there is one thing. Recovering from surgery no matter how minor is something else again. The wrist is just under to much strain batting so I think if he is not ready to play on day 1 he is not in the lineup at all. When he is ready to hit there should be no issue with where he hits at least as it relates to wrist.

Historically CC has not had the kind of plate discipline you want from your lead off hitter. I think you want Ells there since the only other logical choice is Pedey and you really would prefer him farther down in the order. So I think: Ells CC Pedey Agons Youk Ortiz or Maybe Ortiz and then Youk makes more sense. I hope they do not move CC around this year. Once Tito started moving him all over creation the whole thing no longer had any sense to me. Maybe I could have seen one move early in the year if Tito asked the player to see if he could get his bat going without the pressure of being up in the batting order. I can't tell if even one move would have worked in CC's case. In retrospect his lack of familiarity with that lower spot in the lineup seems to have been more of a problem than allowing him to work his way out of it from a spot where he is at least comfortable. Anyway I hope they don't move him around this year.

Agreed but when has that every stopped anybody!