jung

Beckett needs to be gone and Ortiz running into outs looks worse and worse when you are struggling to win games.

Nice pitch to start with Josh....just perfect

I am so sick of seeing Ortiz running into outs. Just for crying out loud STOP!

I thought Nava had a decent game last night and while he did see his numbers fall off from mid-june to ASB his numbers were bound to fall of and he hit a stretch of tough pitchers, some able to overpower him.

Oh how I wish Ells had strike 2 back

At least there is a solution for Aviles butchering SS. There is no immediate solution in the works for Salty butchering the catching position. Salty has gotten better in some defensive categories and SS is still the more important defensive position. I wonder if that 1 run of ERA difference has been maintained through Salty's recent run or if it is burdened to some extent by his early season performance.

I expect Buch to continue as he has as long as he stays healthy but really I think the trend both Lester and Beckett are on are trends established and continued from last year. Beckett still suffers from the 1 big blow up inning...it is what at the end of the day described his season last year and really describes his season this year as well...see last Yankee start for recent example. Lester has always given the Sox innings and that has not changed. However it does seem that the quality we get over those innings pitched has been in decline over time. That said, innings is a big deal for a starting pitcher. So I have hopes for Lester. I desperately want to see the Sox get a) s real 1 and a better pitching coach as I think both would have a major positive impact on Lester. If I could only have one it would be a true 1 to lead the rotation guys and Beckett gone somewhere. Not going to happen this year though IMO. Agree with 700's comments above on trade deadline activity.

Wow knew Atch had thrown a lotta' relief innings this year but did not know he was leading the league in innings for a reliever. Gone to the DL at the moment but can probably use the rest as much as anything else.

That stretch of really good pitching the Sox faced from about mid-june to the ASB showed Nava's primary weakness as a ML hitter....he can be overpowered by really good pitching. Does not make him a less savvy hitter but it does emphasis his biggest weakness....just not that physically talented. Still love the guy and wish we could transplant his head into any number of Sox bodies.

Need a win today to take 2 of 3 from the Rays.

The Sox were not an offensive juggernaut in from middle June to the ASB across the board. They ran into a heavy dose of real good pitching and it took its toll. I think Nava suffered more than some of the better hitters on the team and you could see how he could be overpowered by certain pitchers. He is still one of the few truly team oriented hitters the Sox have and while I cannot see Nava starting anywhere in the ML, I would love to transplant his head into somebody else's body. If we had more hitters that thought like him, we would not have so much trouble getting timely hits.

Seems to me that season stats often don't really tell the story of a season because they don't tell you want the team did when it really mattered. While I am sure this is true I just don't think it is as relevant as other elements of the team's play. In fact while I am taking a quote from a 700 post and I don't want to put words in his mouth I would bet he likely agrees with me. As I recall the Sox record in games where they were behind after the 6th inning was 2-61 in 2011. The Sox lost 72 games on the season as a whole. So while they only came back to win 2 games while losing 61 when behind after the 6th inning by exception, they lost 11 games when leading or tied after the 6th inning. So they lost 11 and won 88 when they were leading or tied after the 6th inning. Therefore their winning % when behind after the 6th while terrible was not as bad as their losing % when ahead or tied after the 6th inning. Had they gone on to win in 7 of those 11 loses, they would have tied the Yanks for the division win! If one of those 7 was a game against the Yanks, they would have won the division over the Yanks by one game. So it seems to me that while they ranked high in OPS and BA against for the late innings, they were also losing enough of those games where they were actually ahead or tied going into the late innings to have gone from a possible division winner to not making the post season at all. To be honest although those 11 late inning loses last year contradicts the view that our late inning relief performances were saving us in some relevant way last year, I prefer not to really focus much attention on those 11 loses. It seems to me that it is not about what is different about the 2012 Sox when compared to the 2011 Sox. It is about what is the same. All this talk about losing Paps and Bards demise and Aceves being forced to close, and injuries and for all intents and purposes it is the same damn team it was last year. It can't win close games and can't come from behind to save its skin. What is most similar about the 2011 and 2012 teams? Its the starting pitching of course. The starting pitching on balance sucked last year and it sucks this year. The starters were generally out-pitched last year and they are being out-pitched this year. To many games were already decided against before the relief pitchers even get into the game last year. However if you do want to focus on the actual results when they were in the late innings tied or ahead last year, they actually still lost a high enough percentage of those games to have cost themselves the division. If you really want to focus in on the crux of the matter it is those three guys at the top of the rotation. You can dance around those three guys till hell freezes over but that is where this team is being beaten more often than not. Second to starting pitching the other key element of similarity between the 2011 and 2012 teams is timely hitting. Here again the season numbers are misleading as the Sox score tons of runs but don't score enough with the game on the line. Those two elements of the game, the starting pitching and particularly from the three guys at the top of the rotation and secondarily the lack of timely hitting is what killed the Sox last year and continues to kill them this year. As for the starting pitching, I still think the only way to really do something that will matter will be to get rid of Beckett and move Lester probably as far down as the 3 in this rotation with Buch as the 2 and get a true 1 which they did not have last year and don't have this year. They may have enough depth to fill out the rotation with some combination of Morales, Doubront and Cook but I am not sure you want three LH starters when you have to play 81 in Fenway. Seems to me that the Sox will have to decide between Doubront and Morales and probably move Cook in order to fill out the bottom of the rotation as well as getting a true 1 which is still the first order of business in my view. So when viewed this way, while Morales might be a real find, realistically they need to move one guy and find two including an Ace for the top of the rotation just to compete in the AL East. As for the timely hitting problem, there the Sox need a blood transfusion. They need to think like and play like a team as opposed to playing like a bunch of disassociated pieces. They need to look at their plate appearances from the perspective of what the team needs to forward their prospects within a game more than what they need as individuals to forward the prospects to improve their individual hitting stats. This might require a heck of a lot more than extra bunting drills as this does not seem to be something that gets any organizational attention these days and some of them may just not have it in them. Young guys like WMB are hacking away from the on deck circle. Nava is a very smart hitter and what they really need is nine guys in the line up every day that approach their plate appearances the way Nava approaches his. How many guys on this team approach their plate appearances the way Nava does now......well there's Nave......there's Nava.....there's Nava.....there's Ells, you get the picture? Guys that clearly don't; Ross, Aviles, Agons, WMB, Salty. Guys somewhere in the middle; Pedey, Sweeney, Ciriaco, Shop, Punto and maybe Crawford. The only guy that is a good enough hitter for which this is not an issue is Ortiz. Every other hitter on this team is simply not good enough to treat his plate appearances like his own personal playground. As you can probably tell, I think this "team" has much farther to go to actually be a team than most of my fellow forum members. I don't think the Sox really have very much for their $180M. Their Starting Pitching, starting pitching being the most important single aspect of baseball, sucks. They don't get timely hitting, they get runs....sometimes. Their defense.....sucks....in fact they are institutionalizing sucky defense by virtue of their insistence on sticking defensive stiffs in the most important defensive positions on the field. Their bull pen is actually a plus although if you have to go as deep into the team as the bullpen to find a plus you know you are in trouble. A plus bullpen should be the icing on the cake, not something you are relying on to win the bulk of your games. To be honest, the bullpen is barely a plus anyway. The bullpen is the one place where I think I can say with some confidence that V has had a very positive impact. I do think he outsmarted himself in the Saturday Rays game but for the most part V has done a terrific job finding the right slots for these guys. I really don't think they are that good. I think V has found how to use each guy so that his best talents are put forward more often than not.

Robbed us of the best chance we were going to have to win this game. Ortiz at the plate with the bases loaded and no place to put him. Sending Shop was like trying to beat the Rays at their own game but instead of having some speedster at third like they would have....we have Shop. Gotta win the way you can win and in this case, we needed Shop to stay put...fake down the line if they wanted and try to draw an errant throw but don't for the love of God rob Ortiz of the opportunity to come to the plate with bases loaded and a chance to change the entire profile of the game from one favoring the Rays to one favoring the Sox.

There are subtle differences in these games that make all the difference when you are trying to play them and they are not being played optimally for the kind of team you are. That is why sending Shop from 3rd was such a horrible mistake. That is playing the game the way the Rays want you to play it, only they end up with some speedster on 3rd cause that is how they are designed to play baseball. We end up with Shop on 3rd and sending him with Ortiz waiting to come up with the bases loaded is just playing into their hands. Attempting to sacrifice when you already have a fast runner in scoring position is giving up an out for nothing and again is playing the game the way the Rays want us to play it. I can just about guarantee you that Ross would not have gotten a pitch that he could drive deep enough into center field in the 8th inning to sacrifice if Ells was on 3rd instead of 2nd and allowing Ciriaco to hit does not automatically mean he will not move the runner over. I do think the Shop thing was a mistake by our 3rd base coach but in a couple instances tonight I think V has just outsmarted himself. We have an inning anyway. Maybe we get a runner and a dinger....at least that is something we CAN do.

Yea I have noticed that WMB seems to have this first pitch disease as well...lets see, I have not seen this guy pitch at all tonight so he is going to be throwing with a different arm angle...ah what the hell I like that pitch

Just amazing....can we ever win one of these kinds of games.....ever??????

C'mon Cody ...get us a hit here

Cody Ross against a RH pitcher....here comes our DP or a K I fear.

I love the sacrifice to move a guy into scoring position and hate it for moving a guy into better scoring position, particularly since the Sox are simply not good at this kind of baseball to begin with. The guy is not going to hit into a DP...let him hit for crying out loud.

Terrific at bat for Ells. What has happened to turn ML umps on their ear.....poor home plate decisions are one thing but it used to be that as the game wore on and you got into the later innings....the umps would be less inclined to squeeze the pitchers. Now it seems to me that they are all more inclined to squeeze the pitchers....theirs and ours. You may not be inclined to open up the strike zone but why squeeze the damned thing?

I think there is the possibility that V may well have outsmarted himself this time. Not saying he has made terrible in-game decisions but I can't say that I liked the intentional pass to load the bases there. Bring in somebody that can go after that guy. You have the lead in the game to that point.

Sending Shop from 3rd was the last chance the Sox had to turn this into the type of game they have a better chance to win. They might still win this game but this is not the kind of game that you would expect them to win.

Ah s***.....at least it is not the leading run...not yet anyway.

I can see Fenway Security taking the thing away from the guy or maybe even sawing it in half in front of the guy.:D "If you don't let us take it away we will have to remove you from the Park" "But I thought removal from the park was for things like interfering with the ball in play or throwing something on the field....something really really stupid" "And your point is?"

For the love of God!