Dipre

Stop this, J_E and Ital. In essence, you're arguing a matter of semantics. Ital doesn't "hate" Lebron but is annoyed by his attention-whoring, which is understandable, but J_E is defending Lebron in spite of his attention-whoring, so it's basically a "you like him, i don't" argument. Neither of you is going to change the other's mind, and Ital doesn't hate Lebron enough to warrant both of you making this personal. Now, girls, you're both pretty, shut up, and go make me a sandwich.

Papelbon has a good year (2008 repeated), and the Sox decide they feel comfortable keeping him, Bard and Jenks together as a three-headed monster at the back of the pen, so they decide to set a limit on him at 3/36 and put that offer on the table, Papelbon tests the open market, doesn't receive an offer that matches the 3/36 offered by the Sox and decides to return. You don't know the value the Sox have currently set for Papelbon or the value they will set for him after the year. None of us do, and discarding the scenario because you think you know the FO's plan is an exercise in futility. He may be back, he probably won't, but you don't know that, and neither do the rest of us. However, the possibility exists (no matter how much you stomp your feet and scream otherwise) that circumstances may have him returning for the Sox after '11. Spare me the "opinion" part of the argument and focus on the objective viewpoint of the issue, which is: He likely won't be back, but there's a chance he could be, and neither i, nor anyone here, can discount either possibility, because we don't know the FO's actual line of thinking. All we have are speculation and press clippings.

I'm going to laugh so hard if the Sox re-sign Papelbon.

I

It's d'ohny. What'd you guys expect?

Which is kinda what i've been saying all along.

Ok, then let me re-phrase: First off, it's not a given that Bard will be the closer if Papelbon goes, it could be Jenks. Second, and i mentioned this before, it's very likely that if Papelbon does go they sign an elite reliever to keep the back end of the bullpen as strong as possible, which is why i make mention of the strength of the closer market for next offseason. Now, my other point is that Papelbon returning to the Sox is not impossible. And that's a fair and valid point. I haven't pledged my undying allegiance to him, i'm just saying that if he does good in 2011 he could be back. Simple as that.

Don't assign opinions to me that i haven't presented. I don't like or dislike Papelbon specifically, but i'm rather torn on him, because i don't know whether his performance problems are fixable, but if they are, i'm presenting a completely plausible scenario of him returning to the Red Sox under the right conditions, which is the exact opposite of what you're doing, since you're the one who doesn't want him back, and admittedly so, regardless of 2011 performance because you don't like him. So who's the one basing their opinions on the "like" or "dislike" game? Stomp your feet and scream your dislike for Papelbon all you want. There's a chance, if minuscule, he comes back, and your dislike of him shouldn't blind you from the possibility. Also, please don't fabricate and assign opinions for me based on things i have not said. Thank you.

Don't assign opinions to me that i haven't presented. I don't like or dislike Papelbon specifically, but i'm rather torn on him, because i don't know whether his performance problems are fixable, but if they are, i'm presenting a completely plausible scenario of him returning to the Red Sox under the right conditions, which is the exact opposite of what you're doing, since you're the one who doesn't want him back, and admittedly so, regardless of 2011 performance because you don't like him. So who's the one basing their opinions on the "like" or "dislike" game? Stomp your feet and scream your dislike for Papelbon all you want. There's a chance, if minuscule, he comes back, and your dislike of him shouldn't blind you from the possibility. Also, please don't fabricate and assign opinions for me based on things i have not said. Thank you.

How, did they send a memo, 'cause i didn't get it? Unless they literally say "we're done with Papelbon" there's no way to know if they will try to negotiate with him, specially if he goes out and has a monster 2011, which is more likely than not the basis of anything regarding Papelbon.

Why's everyone acting surprised? The fact that Papelbon was going to get 12 million or more was clear as day, and has been discussed several times on the site. Oh, and to the "sweet, Papelbon's going away" crowd, keep in mind that a good 2011 combined with next year's closer market may mean him staying on the Sox for a couple more years. Brace yourselves for that.

suns, i lurk at TalkPats. If anyone here annoys everyone, it's you.

http://images0.memegenerator.net/ImageMacro/3766671/lol-seriously-bitch-its-the-truth-get-off-my-nuts.jpg?imageSize=Medium&generatorName=squirrelcuster ^This. "f***tard".

Says the whiner. Maybe you don't understand English, should i say "Get off my nuts" in spanish? Point me to the general direction where i said "Ital and Keeper are retarded for bitching about Lebron". Ital didn't take it personally, because he didn't see it as a personal attack, because it wasn't, then again, he's not a whining little bitch.

Keeper, i want you to get this through your thick skull: I was not singling you and Ital out, but making a general statement, and the one person i did single out was suns, doing so by name. You are not that important, i don't care about you, stop whining and starting s*** with me. Now if you want me to say what i think actually singling you out, then i will: You don't know Lebron James, and this is another instance of your typical whining and penis envy. Grow up, you are not twelve. You do not know Lebron James, Lebron James does not care about you, and you have no clue about the type of person he actually is.

Why would i personally hate Lebron? Why would i personally hate any athlete for that matter? I don't know Lebron, and neither does anyone here. Granted, there are exceptions of people who are obvious douchebags (T.O, Vick, Moss, Clemens and Favre, i'm looking straight at you) who may warrant some hatred, but the Lebron hate is unjustified and retarded. I hate Yankee players for the uniform they wear, but that doesn't compel me to hate poeple i don't know personally or wish them ill, since i am no longer twelve years old. suns is a case in point, he personifies the "retarded" part of "retarded hatred". Fire away.

Popcorn's in the M-wave. I find the Lebron hate to be ridiculous and quite frankly kinda retarded to be honest. Popcorn ready, yay!

That's a sensible position, since i honestly (regardless of 2011 performance) wouldn't want him back at three years guaranteed, but as you say, it all depends on what he's asking for. The problem with surrounding Bard with other relievers is that it defeats the "cost-effective" purpose and the better relievers are likely to cost a draft pick. It all depends on how the situation plays out.

One year of 2008 numbers is enough of a sample size to establish his value. It's a return to form, not an establishment of new levels of performance. And how do you know the Sox wouldn't be willing to offer a multi-year deal? Do you work in the FO? They probably wouldn't be willing to pay top dollar for Papelbon, and understandably so, but there are many factors working towards a possible agreement with him, pending performance, next off-season, including familiarity and closer availability on the FA pool. I think it's more likely that Papelbon re-signs than Lowrie hits more than 20 homers for the record.

Jacko, where do you get that Papelbon's problems can be fixed by painting the corners with fastballs? He can do that, what he can't do is throw anything else for strikes consistently, including that little slider. No matter how hard you throw and how many corners you paint, if the hitters are sitting dead-red on fastballs, you're not going to be able to get by them consistently. The high fastball is also much less effective if he can't trust his split to change plane of sight on hitters, who simply lay off of anything that's moving to a certain extent. He gets back the split, he goes back to his 2008 (his actual best statistical season) heyday. I don't see why it's so difficult to fathom that Papelbon makes adjustments and becomes what he was a couple years ago, i mean, i can see that from you, since it's kinda become your job to throw a bar of soap in the cake mix, but not from everyone else. Specially people who expect Jed Lowrie to hit 27 homeruns.

Jonathan Papelbon is not, say, a washed up Mike Timlin. He's a 30-year-old relief pitcher with tons of talent whose issues, if fixed, could lead him back to being an elite reliever. My issue is not with "being loyal" to the player but rather how the "silver lining" is not being acknowledged. If they fix him, i'd take him at a reasonable price over any NL West experiment (who will be type A by the way) while keeping Bard on a setup role.

You misinterpret a point i make yet again. I'm making the point that if what is wrong with him is fixed, because of his age (he is 30, not 40, so where does the "loyalty" point apply?) and past performance, that he could continue being effective, and that has nothing to do with whether i do or don't "like" the player. What i like is performance, and i expect big things out of Papelbon in 2011 with the infusion of Young as pitching, because Papelbon's problems have a solution. You're using around 100 IP of pitching to try and show a downward trend that is irreversible, which is ludicrous in my opinion. It's all about throwing the splitter for strikes and getting hitters away from his fastball. The stuff is still there, so the adjustments are certainly possible. You don't see room for improvement because you have a pre-conceived notion of Papelbon's "ability" which seems to be mostly fueled by your actual "dislike" for the player.

His career BB/9 up to 2008: 2.1. Two years of 3.70 BB/9 will make a reliever's career norm sky-rocket. Context adjustment is needed. His HR/9 in 2006 was right around his career numbers without 2010, and right around it with it too. Not to mention that an 0.2 or 0.3 increase in HR/9 for a reliever is insignificant given the amount of innings they pitch. One cheap homer may do the trick. In fact, the difference between his 2007 HR total and 2010 HR total is exactly two homeruns. His 05/08 BB/9 number (2.1) much more useful for the purpose of the current discussion, and there's a reason why hitters are making more contact with pitches in the strike zone, and that's because he only throws fastballs in the strike zone. I just don't get why it's so absolutely difficult to believe he could re-capture his effectiveness with some specific adjustments, and that he would be an asset if it did happen. And with a pitcher of Papelbon's age (mid-prime) whatever adjustments made in 2011 would certainly more than likely be an indicator of things to come, and a re-capturing of earlier success. Funny how now a lot of people now want to hang Papelbon by the balls after he was a Sox "hero" whether he recaptures his form or not.