Dojji

But it doesn't keep Ubaldo Jimenez out of the game, at the very best it delays his advent.

Fine. Then bring Britton out on the bottom of the 9th, which I've always said was the conventional move, and he's gone by the 11th anyway. It's Not. That. Big. A. Factor.

I've often felt this whole argument was a result of sloppy thinking. THe fact of the matter is that the bullpen is a team. If you can only count on one member of that team to get the job done it doesn't matter a bit where you use him, because you'll get burnt by the other, bad, relievers at about an equal level. Unless you have 2-3 really top flight relievers, it doesn't matter which role you use your good relievers because your lack of bullpen depth is going to burn you just about exactly as hard no matter how you stack it.

2 games at the end of the year and a CF who defended at a gold glove level and hit 20+ is suddenly "not an all star." Dear dog in heaven I hate the overdramatic flailing that happens on this forum when the team is struggling in the postseason.

Yeah, exactly. One of those guys would have pitched the 10th, and Jimenez would still be out there in the 11th, the entire difference is he'd be 1 inning fresher. Your math is counting Britton twice and once for 2 innings which I don't think he did all year. I find this hillarious.

Your choices are "Britton pitches the bottom of the 9th and is unavailable by the 11th inning" and "Britton pitches only when the Orioles take the lead." If you're taking the "all hands on deck" strategy, Britton is out of the game by the 11th and Jimenez is probably still pitching when Encarnacion comes up. It's a fallacy to assume that Britton was going to be used in the 11th unless the O's took the lead. The fact that he was even available to be used in the 11th is a direct result of the very decision you're criticising. And I do want you to consider that carefully. You've got your long man on in a tie game. You've already burnt your entire pen. The best possible result here is that Britton gets through that inning and preserves the tie, and if that's the case, who the hell pitches the 12th? The game is still tied. Your bats have not broken the tie in the last 7 innings, it's unrealistically optimistic to assume they'll magically do so next inning and like I said, you've already burnt through your entire stable of relievers and long guys. Your closer might be game for it but how many 2 inning performances has he given all year? Can't be more than a handful, if any at all. So who the hell do you warm if the game keeps going and you can't break the tie in the 12th? Gonna bring a starter in, and all the issues that might generate down the road, not to mention the potential for injury in bringing anyone out in a role they're unfamiliar with (see also: Wright, Steven)? This is the question facing Showalter in the bottom of the 11th, and it's not an easy one. Once Jimenez came out there, he had to stay out there until the tie broke one way or the other, because he was the long man and only the closer and the rest of the starters were behind him. Now arguably they should have used Britton on the bottom of the 9th to take that one extra inning away from the long man, but even if they did, Jimenez would still be out there in the 11th, the entire difference would have been that Jimenez would not also have pitched the 10th. I just do not see at all how the decision to not use Britton in the bottom of the 9th, which is the only inning Showalter would have ever used Britton without a lead, makes the huge difference people are crediting it with.

To put the same thing another way -- as I see it the only difference between Jimenez in the wild card game, and Leskainc and Wakefield in game 5 of the 2004 ALCS, is that Leskanic and Wakefield came through long enough for the Red Sox to scratch across a run

Nearly every team Theo ever managed as a GM or team President has been well above average, and teams he assembled (or mostly assembled) have won the World Series at least twice, three times if you give him credit for assembling the lion's share of the 2013 core. Even remembering that he's always had a big budget to work with, it's fair to give Theo a lot of props as a baseball mind. Especially since we're in a position to know the difference, and have learned (hopefully) that a GM can't always spend their way to high level performances in the baseball standing.

If you know your history, Theo's never been above a bit of creative cosplay.

I still say it's an overdramatization to try to pass that off as the reason the Orioles lost that game. It's an exercise in making a mountain out of a medium-sized hill -- there's something to it, but not as much as you're making it out to be. The Orioles had plenty of opportunities to win that game, or secure their lead, prior to the Britton decision and did not do so. Besides, if Showalter had made the "right" call, Britton would still not have been a factor by the 11th inning, he would have come out of the bullpen in the bottom of the 9th, exactly like a lot of teams do with their closer when tied on the road, and Ubaldo Jimenez probably still pitches the bottom of the 11th, or if not, the bottom of the 12th, since he seems to have been the designated longman. There's nothing Showalter could have done that wouldn't have eventually meant exactly that situation would come up (Jimenez on the mound against TOR's best hitters I mean) if the game went on long enough without Baltimore hitters breaking through.. I get that not using him right then was a mistake, especially from the perspective of that snapshot in time right before Encarnacion hit the home run, but pretending that it cost the team the game is just a little bit over the top.

The flaw in your post, Kimmi, is in its 5th word. There is not a lot of "think" coming out of that quarter at the moment. There's not enough room for "think" among the forces already crowding that particular skull, foremost among them are "rage" "froth" "react" "seethe" and "grope frantically around the Internet for the one loon a major newspaper is stupid enough to hire and publish that somewhat agrees with me." There's a reason I'm usually not to be found on the boards when things start drifting downhill. Posts like the one you're rebutting, based on nothing but reactionary anger and an appalling lack of reasoning skills, are a large part of why I take a break in those times.

That said I do wish we still had Tito. Not because Farrell's so bad, but because the reason we fired him was utter BS. We fired Francona because the ownership group was trying to live in denial that the good times of the 2007 core were winding down. The 2011 team fell apart for reasons that had rather little to do with the manager, but the media got hold of some clubhouse nonsense that didn't actually matter and the ownership decided they could keep the money train rolling by pretending the whole thing was Tito's fault rather than our own complete inability to develop a homegrown starting pitcher of any reasonable quality or skill. I'm a bit embarrassed to admit that I enjoyed the rude awakening they got in 2012 after he was gone when the team went from "flawed but very competitive" to "ultimate stankteam."

Agreed. Also let's give some goddamn credit to the Guardians! How about recognizing the fact that the other team played well? Why is that so hard for some fans? Sometimes you just lose to a hotter team. Sometimes it isn't your year. This would seem to not be our year. Oh well. The team placed well in the regular season, we're going to have a division pennant to display if nothing else, and we don't have too many of those over our very long history. That's a hell of a lot better than last place. Farrell did his job, he's OK. Not great, not terrible, OK. Good enough to be our manager until his next extension at any rate. The only thing all year you could really fry JF for is the Wright injury, and if any of you really want to seriously try to tell me that a knuckleballer is going to be the big difference in postseason ball I have some wetland to sell you in New Mexico. Besides, Wright was already trending down a bit after his gargantuan start to the season, and odds are Wright wouldn't even have pitched yet in the series if healthy. We were always gonna roll the dice with Porcello and Price in the first 2 games, and it happens that they got beat by a good team. These things happen, and assigning "blame" when they do is a silly and petty thing to do. This is not the Grady Little story. We rolled our best out there, and our best didn't execute. Simply put, we've been beaten by the better team each of the last 2 games. That has to be OK. It has to be allowable that a better team beats you in the playoffs. That has to be a thing that we are capable of accepting.

Call me crazy but with the rotation already reasonably strong, I wouldn't trade JBJ for Sale straight up. It's one thing to trade major assets for an area of need but strictly speaking we don't need Sale to have a good rotation next year. True, uou can't have too much pitching but you also can't have too many cost controlled power hitting athletic centerfielders who get the job done at a high level on both ends of the ball. That kind of player can be as hard to acquire as an ace at times. Guys like JBJ don't come around very often.

Actually the post you're responding to asked what was available that was a better deal than Pomeranz. You definitely haven't established that for either Moore or Liriano.

No, with Pedey he always just plays through it. His wrists are an absolute mess at this point, probably better to ask when they aren't injured than when they are. Playing through it is great but it does tend to make the wear and tear from an injury all the worse.

Frankly we'll have enough youth on the bullpen as it is, we always do. Having a couple accomplished veterans who have Been There and Done That is very valuable, even if one of them doesn't speak much English More seriously, we're about to lose a HUGE piece of institutional memory on this team, the veteran that has been key to bringing is 3 championships. We've been spoiled for championship experience for as long as Papi has been on the roster, but with him gone, our list of former champions is pretty restricted -- is it down to just Pedey and Bogaerts in his rookie season? And Buchholz if we activate that last option year? Trying to think of others, but we've REALLY turned the roster over since 13. So keeping champions around is going to become very important going forward. That's actually why I was hoping to bring in Kendrys Morales to DH for us rather than Edwin Encarnacio. Morales has Been There and Done That.

Madison Bumgarner is a postseason monster. Some guys just flip a switch when October roles around, Papi is one, Bumgarner is definitely another. Wouldn't it be something if the two met this year?

I think Koji will be in demand though, if he does pitch well in the postseason. Any team with a young closer and dreams of contending would want such a solid veteran professional behind him. I think we have the potential for a rock solid rotation next year, much better optics on the starters than we had this time last season Porcello Price Wright Pomeranz E-Rod That's an impressive rotation in which any member of the rotation could wind up in any "slot." Pomeranz, Wright and E-Rod have already demonstrated the ability to pitch like top of the rotation guys for partial seasons, Porcello may have won the CYA this year, and Price is a much better bet to normalize his performance than he is to continue to perform as awkwardly as he did this year. If the chips fall average we should have a strong durable rotation full of #3 types, which, with a lineup as strong as ours ought to be, I'll happily take and should be enough to keep us in the playoff hunt. If we get a little lucky we could wind up with multiple top of the rotation caliber performances next year and that's exciting. Bullpen: Kimbrel Smith Kelly * Barnes * * I leave asterisks open here because quite frankly, we're going to probably have a revolving door of several names in the last 4 bullpen slots. Barnes struggled a little towards the end of the year but I think he did enough to ensure he's in the mix. He's a very talented releiver who just needs to take a step or two forward with his command, reminds me a lot of Manny Delcarmen but with a better fastball. I do think Kelly is going to thrive in a bullpen role as well, and we have enough pieces to fit around that assuming Carson Smith is healthy. Love to have Koji back because it would reduce the number of wild card slots, but at the end of the day the bullpen is going to be an issue to sort out every single year so from this far out, this is alright. Lineup: C: Leon -- he earned the first crack at the job, I don't expect the level of offensive dominance he showed this year, but a ~.720-~.750 OPS with a few going over the wall will make me happy, especially considering that Leon is an excellent defender. 1B: Hanley -- no need to rock the boat here, Hanley was fine at first base, and has sulked in the past when he was put in a position in which he was uncomfortable. Defense is an issue, but not enough of an issue to risk a sulking Hanley. He's out first baseman going forward. 2B: Pedroia -- still concerned about the fact that Pedey has managed to get himself hurt every single year including this year. On field performance is much better, but those injuries are going to catch up with him eventually. Glad we have a couple guys who can slot in and play 2B well enough if needed, it looks like the franchise is thinking along the same lines. Would not be surprised to see Marco Hernandez making a month's worth of starts at 2B sometime next season. Also would not be surprised to see SS prospect Mauricio Dubon playing a large minority of his games at second base next year -- just in case. SS: Bogaerts -- bit of a disappointment down the stretch, but still satisfactory. No need to rethink SS at this time. 3B: Shaw? This is the position that is in flux. I expect absolutely nothing out of the Panda, and don't even consider him a 3B until he proves otherwise. Honestly I could see us going out to acquire a 3B if a good one becomes available, but I don't see the team breaking the bank for one with Moncada in the wings. I think if Shaw can't improve, he's used as a placeholder until Moncada is ready. With that said, it could be years for a guy like Moncada to really get up to MLB speed so we may be arguing over 3B for a while to come. OF: Benintendi-JBJ-Betts-Young might be one of the best 4 man outfields in the game. Bench Young Holt Hernandez Vazquez Again, should be very solid. 2 solid multi position guys, a good lefty masher, and a very very good defensive catcher. All in all I'd say the roster is good enough to compete in 2017. There's some obvious flaws an issues, and we'll be feeling the lack of Big Papi unless we bring in a bat to replace him, which we might but I don't see an overwhelmingly desperate need to. But this team is good enough to fight for the crown without a major shakeup I think. And of course we'll find out what DD thinks after the postseason.

I would happily engage Familia as a setup man or middle reliever, but I think his career as a closer is more or less done between what happened this year and the chokefest in 2016. He is very very skilled, but has proved again and again that he can't handle closing under the bright lights. If I was the Mets, I would look at bringing in an aging closer type to "set up" for Familia, someone not unlike Koji, and then swap to him when the playoffs start.

Getting sooooooo sick about hearing about freaking Quintana and Sale. There's very little smoke behind the idea of a Sale trade and absolutely NONE behind a trade of Quintana.

Don't know who you think was available who was all that much better than Pom.

Baltimore was the road team. They needed their closer in reserve in case they suddenly started winning. Playing Britton would look mighty silly if they scored in the next half inning. This is just one of those judgment calls that you can never get 100% right. At the end of the day you've got to count on your bullpen depth to hang up the donuts in an extra inning game.

Yep. He provided us exactly average production from the lower middle of the rotation.

When small sample sizes are all you have to judge on, you judge based on small sample sizes. We have to make a call, Hill or Hernandez, we can't not make that decision, so we use the available evidence despite how shallow it is.