Jayhawk Bill

Nice game. Night, y'all.

Nor did I say that Webb and Overbay were necessarily the "lesser" players--I merely mention them, remembering that both were involved in trade rumors. Spivey was pretty well regarded back then. His "subpar" 2003 included 13 HR in only 408 PA, not bad for a good-fielding middle infielder. He trailed off in September 2003, but his second half stats almost mirrored his first half...I didn't notice the decline at the time. :dunno: Concur. Only since 2005, AFAIK. But it's been pretty evident since then. :thumbdown

Great research! Two points: 1) The proposed trade wasn't just Soriano + Johnson for Schilling: Junior Spivey was an All Star who received MVP votes in 2002. "Lesser" AAA players included Lyle Overbay and Brandon Webb. The proposal wasn't necessarily as lopsided as the two-for-one you suggest would appear. 2) I've actually got nothing against Yankees trades until 2005...:dunno:

Cool. I respect your forthright honesty. I also disagree. Quote where I wrote the word "conspiracy." OK...options for payback include cash or other services of value directed to Pirates ownership/management from either the Yankees or MLB through untraceable sources. The opportunity to make profitable straddle trades on the NYSE is a first possibility...promises of future payback of talent in a contending year is another...there are countless others, including motivated self-interest to keep revenue sharing alive and well by keeping the New York media market fully engaged.

Manny tries to enhance his trade value...

Nice throw by Abreu.

Walked Massachusetts and Maine in my teenaged years, yeszir. Drove New England many, many times. Yeah, I know where those places are.

Oh, phooey. :harhar: Check the impact of the schedule again, a700hitter. Boston has to play against the AL East, but its eligibility for a Wild Card berth is measured against teams with AL Central and AL West schedules. That is why no AL East team excepting Boston has achieved a playoff berth for 11 years despite a Wild Card system: they have to play too many games against the high-salary Yankees. Toronto has put forth an excellent team: zero ALDS berths. The same goes for Baltimore and Tampa Bay for the past decade. That's beyond random chance; that's the impact of payroll. You may choose to ignore fiscal reality if you insist, but the facts are no less compelling. Money matters.

Ye of little faith. The storm line extended west to a line Concord-Springfield as of 5:48 PM, with clear skies behind that. From the National Weather Service: I see the skies clearing around game time, and a good chance to play after a slight delay if the outfield isn't too wet. The new drainage system may pay dividends tonight. :thumbsup:

Did Manny say these words in Spanish? These have got to be Manny's best sound bites ever...I've never heard him speak so eloquently, but I follow MLB in English and this was a Spanish-language site.

If the Yankees had a $300 million payroll, three AL East teams paid the minimum to all their players, and the Red Sox had 24 players at MLB minimum plus Kevin Cash, would you say that? :dunno: The perception when you say "second-richest team with the second-highest payroll" is that there's a standard distribution and that Boston is close behind the Yankees. That's not the case. The difference in payrolls is greater than the difference between the last-place Rays and the 20th-place Reds. More to the point, each extra dollar offers a greater chance for wins: an estimate of one win per $5 million is conservative. The Yankees should have nine more wins than the Red Sox each year at that rate. But every dollar matters--and $46 million dollars matter a whole lot. Sorry, there IS reason to claim competitive disadvantage. As long as they don't have to play in the AL East in an unbalanced schedule, facing the Yankees more times than any other contending team. But that's the case. Trivia question: when was the last time an AL East team other than the Red Sox or the Yankees made the ALDS? Sorry, but no: there is only one guaranteed berth in the AL East, and Boston never approaches having the highest payroll. Concur. Sometimes uncomfortable truths are truths nevertheless. Trivia answer: 11 years ago, in 1997, the Orioles lost the ALCS for the second year in a row. Baltimore had the combined Baltimore-Washington DC market back then, and they had the second-highest payroll in MLB, behind the Yankees, in 1997. No, your point was that the Red Sox could compete with the Yankees on an equal basis if the owners were only to try, if only the owners were not so selfish and greedy. I believe that your point has been refuted. Of course, YMMV.

Bostonownsyou appears to be a Yankees fan in a mocked-up Red Sox forum name. Check the posting history.

Great! Welcome aboard, and thanks for joining us. Don't mind Gom.

First, great post. Kudos. Second, I respectfully disagree. Let's look at team revenues. Forbes did a comprehensive study of revenues for 2007: let's check it out: [table]Team | Revenues ($mil) New York Yankees | 327 Boston Red Sox | 263 New York Mets | 235 Los Angeles Dodgers | 224 Chicago Cubs | 214 Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim | 200 Atlanta Braves | 199 San Francisco Giants | 197 St Louis Cardinals | 194 Seattle Mariners | 194 Houston Astros | 193 Chicago White Sox | 193 Philadelphia Phillies | 192 Cleveland Guardians | 181 Detroit Tigers | 173 Texas Rangers | 172 Colorado Rockies | 169 San Diego Padres | 167 Baltimore Orioles | 166 Arizona Diamondbacks | 165 Cincinnati Reds | 161 Toronto Blue Jays | 160 Milwaukee Brewers | 158 Oakland Athletics | 154 Washington Nationals | 153 Minnesota Twins | 149 Pittsburgh Pirates | 139 Tampa Bay Rays | 138 Kansas City Royals | 131 Florida Marlins | 128 [/table] What we're looking at approaches a standard distribution with one outlier: the Yankees. The Yankees have more money, and it's not even close. The thing is, this UNDERSTATES the Yankees' dominance. BP did a study of each team's market for both paying attendees and TV viewing. Here are those results: [table]Team | Attendance | Rank | Rel | TV/Media | Rank | Rel NYA | 18,310,500 | 1 | 305 | 24,167,393 | 1 | 244 NYN | 14,437,748 | 2 | 241 | 17,509,149 | 2 | 177 LAN | 11,869,232 | 3 | 198 | 14,630,751 | 4 | 148 LAA | 11,149,730 | 4 | 186 | 13,286,360 | 5 | 134 PHI | 8,028,349 | 5 | 134 | 12,284,832 | 6 | 124 CHN | 7,741,244 | 6 | 129 | 12,025,789 | 7 | 121 CHA | 7,485,869 | 7 | 125 | 10,186,762 | 11 | 103 BOS | 7,085,546 | 8 | 118 | 11,330,286 | 8 | 114 TOR | 6,835,975 | 9 | 114 | 10,597,278 | 9 | 107 OAK | 6,218,957 | 10 | 104 | 9,111,470 | 18 | 92 SFN | 5,860,148 | 11 | 98 | 9,512,707 | 17 | 96 BAL | 5,745,887 | 12 | 96 | 9,537,244 | 16 | 96 WAS | 5,521,128 | 13 | 92 | 10,100,942 | 12 | 102 ATL | 5,508,612 | 14 | 92 | 16,066,685 | 3 | 162 DET | 5,419,662 | 15 | 90 | 9,562,464 | 15 | 96 HOU | 5,012,076 | 16 | 84 | 10,204,092 | 10 | 103 TEX | 4,976,888 | 17 | 83 | 9,652,074 | 14 | 97 FLO | 4,226,982 | 18 | 70 | 6,166,678 | 24 | 62 SDN | 4,197,822 | 19 | 70 | 7,340,168 | 23 | 74 CLE | 3,983,090 | 20 | 66 | 8,132,574 | 21 | 82 ARI | 3,803,042 | 21 | 63 | 5,504,149 | 26 | 56 CIN | 3,697,207 | 22 | 62 | 9,961,279 | 13 | 100 SEA | 3,425,763 | 23 | 57 | 8,168,161 | 20 | 82 SLN | 3,134,013 | 24 | 52 | 9,082,314 | 19 | 92 MIN | 3,034,112 | 25 | 51 | 5,502,151 | 27 | 55 TBA | 2,999,411 | 26 | 50 | 7,378,965 | 22 | 74 COL | 2,868,147 | 27 | 48 | 4,570,488 | 30 | 46 PIT | 2,749,402 | 28 | 46 | 5,470,016 | 28 | 55 MIL | 2,648,677 | 29 | 44 | 5,779,013 | 25 | 58 KCA | 1,941,956 | 30 | 32 | 4,597,099 | 29 | 46[/table] Check those "Rel" columns, showing the relative size of the teams' markets to a mean of 100. The Yankees' attendance and media markets are 3.05 and 2.44 times, respectively, the MLB mean. Only the Mets come close in attendance market; only the Mets and the Braves come close in media market. Boston is eighth in both attendance and media market, enjoying a market about a sixth larger than the MLB mean. a700, you write, "Your fan base is vast and I would venture to guess that they have a high per capita income compared to other fan bases. You also have access to an abundance of corporate clients." I completely agree--that's why Boston's revenue was second only to the Yankees' revenue, barely ahead of the Mets' revenue. But there's nothing more to be reaped: there are even more rich people and rich corporations in New York than there are in Boston. Boston's revenue was about $64 million less than New York's in 2007. What about Boston's salary expense? [table]Team | Total payroll New York Yankees | $189,639,045 Boston Red Sox | $143,026,214 New York Mets | $115,231,663 Los Angeles Angels | $109,251,333 Chicago White Sox | $108,671,833 Los Angeles Dodgers | $108,454,524 Seattle Mariners | $106,460,833 Chicago Cubs | $99,670,332 Detroit Tigers | $95,180,369 Baltimore Orioles | $93,554,808 St. Louis Cardinals | $90,286,823 San Francisco Giants | $90,219,056 Philadelphia Phillies | $89,428,213 Houston Astros | $87,759,000 Atlanta Braves | $87,290,833 Toronto Blue Jays | $81,942,800 Oakland Athletics | $79,366,940 Minnesota Twins | $71,439,500 Milwaukee Brewers | $70,986,500 Cincinnati Reds | $68,904,980 Texas Rangers | $68,318,675 Kansas City Royals | $67,116,500 Cleveland Guardians | $61,673,267 San Diego Padres | $58,110,567 Colorado Rockies | $54,424,000 Arizona Diamondbacks |$52,067,546 Pittsburgh Pirates | $38,537,833 Washington Nationals | $37,347,500 Florida Marlins | $30,507,000 Tampa Bay Rays | $24,123,500 [/table] The difference in salaries was only $46 million, while the difference in revenue was $64 million. Boston is trying HARDER than the Yankees to win, with respect to profit and loss. If the Yankees ever mobilize their fan base as well as Red Sox Nation is mobilized, they will be unstoppable under the current CBA and Rules of MLB. It is only because RSN pumps so much money into the Red Sox, and because so much of that money is reinvested into talent, that Boston can even compete.

Worse. 2007: Joel Pineiro to the Cardinals for a PTBNL not yet named, AFAIK; Kason Gabbard, David Murphy, and Engel Beltre for Eric Gagne; Wily Mo Pena for Chris Carter 2006: Luis Mendoza for Brian Corey; cash for Javy Lopez; Mike Burns for Tim Bausher; David Wells for George Kottaras 2005: Ramon Vazquez for Alex Cora; Jay Payton for Chad Bradford; Chip Ambres and Juan Cedeno for Tony Graffanino; Scott Cassidy for Adam Hyzdu; Kenny Perez and Kyle Bono for Jose Cruz Jr; Olivio Astacio for Mike Remlinger Several of the players traded away had considerable future success; only Alex Cora, Chad Bradford and Tony Graffanino had any significant positive work for Boston, and the catastrophically bad Gagne trade by itself erases any net value whatsoever from these three years of deals. But deadline deals are never good long-term for contending teams...except for, for some reason, the Yankees. :dunno:

The announced home plate umpire is Angel Hernandez. Tracking back to 2005, in nine games called for each team by Hernandez the cumulative score for the Yankees is 45-38, while for the Red Sox it's 36-48. Hernandez has never called a Ponson start; he's called one Lester start, on May 9th this spring vs. the Twins, and Lester gave up five runs in 5.1 IP for one of his worst starts of the season. Lester had nine pitches normally called strikes called balls by Hernandez, six clearly in the zone, in just 94 pitches. Hernandez gave Twins pitchers nine bonus strikes that game; he gave Boston pitchers none. We'll see how things work out.

You do realize that Abreu was under contract through 2007 with a club option--not a player option--for 2008, don't you? He hasn't hit free agency since his trade to the Yankees.

Let's look at these deals using a quantitative metric. Let's check MLB WARP1 for the remainder of the season in question and the remainder of obligated service time remaining. Yankees losses: July 31, 2006 The Pittsburgh Pirates traded Craig Wilson to the New York Yankees for Shawn Chacon. A steal at the moment of the deal, things changed when Chacon recovered his career-normal form and when Wilson crapped out. The August 1 NY Post reported "BOMBERS TAKE CAKE IN TRADING STAKES," with one anonymous NL GM complaining that the deal was so lopsided that it made no sense. From the NYT August 1: Still, the Yankees lost this one. 2006: -0.1 wins Total: -4.1 wins July 31, 2007 The New York Yankees traded Scott Proctor to the Los Angeles Dodgers for Wilson Betemit. OK, Proctor's work in late 2007 with LA made this a nominal win for the Dodgers thus far. Betemit, though, is an established young player who's had a poor small-sample size record with the Yankees thus far. If he gets the 3.8 WARP1 that PECOTA projects for him between now and free agency, Yankees win this deal big time. 2007: -1.0 wins Total: -0.7 wins Ties: July 26, 2006 The Philadelphia Phillies traded Sal Fasano to the New York Yankees for Hector Made (minors). Well, at least Fasano played in MLB. :dunno: 2006: 0.0 wins Total: 0.0 wins August 27, 2005 The Chicago Cubs traded Matt Lawton to the New York Yankees for Justin Berg (minors). And Lawton played in MLB...although he probably shouldn't've. 2005: -0.1 wins Total: -0.1 wins Yankees wins: July 2, 2005 The New York Yankees traded Paul Quantrill to the San Diego Padres for Darrell May, Tim Redding, and cash. A breakeven trade in 2005, Cashman made a grave error by throwing away Tim Redding. Had he retained him, Redding's future value would've made this a big win--and Cashman's later idiocy doesn't negate the value of this trade. 2005: -0.1 wins Total: 4.0 wins July 28, 2005 The Colorado Rockies traded Shawn Chacon to the New York Yankees for Ramon Ramirez and Eduardo Sierra (minors). One of the two pitching acquisitions that brought the Yankees back to the top of the AL East in 2005. A long-term breakeven, everybody considers this trade a Yankees win because of its 2005 impact, even though Ramon Ramirez (career ERA 3.90 as a middle reliever) was the sole minor leaguer given up by the Yankees in a deadline trade 2005-2007 to have any long-term success in MLB. 2005: 3.7 wins Total: -0.3 wins July 21, 2007 The New York Yankees traded Jeff Kennard (minors) to the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim for Jose Molina. Kennard has done nothing. Molina is the Yankees' starting catcher. 2007: 1.1 wins Total: 2.8 wins July 30, 2006 The Philadelphia Phillies traded Bobby Abreu and Cory Lidle to the New York Yankees for Matt Smith, C.J. Henry (minors), Carlos Monastrios (minors), and Jesus Sanchez (minors). The amazing case of a team winning a trade even when one of the two players it acquired was lost in a tragic accident months later. 2006: 4.1 wins Total: 10.5 wins *** Most deadline deals are long-term losses for contending ballclubs. In eight deals 2005-2007, the Yankees have come out ahead by over 12 wins long term and by over six wins in the years of the deals. Looking at the deals in detail, one of the two losses was considered so lopsided for the Yankees at the moment it was made that collusion was speculated, and the other involves an active player for the Yankees whose future value will reverse the loss. Both ties involved the Yankees getting an MLB player to at least fill a role in return for a worthless MiLB prospect who would never reach MLB. Four times--half of the time that it's made a deadline deal--the Yankees have been outright winners, earning a remarkable 17 wins in just those four trades. And now there's another remarkable giveaway of talent to the Yankees in 2008. Coincidence? There's enough bizarre past history here that I wonder.

FWIW, here are the Yankees' deadline deals 2005-2007: July 21, 2007 The New York Yankees traded Jeff Kennard (minors) to the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim for Jose Molina. July 31, 2007 The New York Yankees traded Scott Proctor to the Los Angeles Dodgers for Wilson Betemit. July 26, 2006 The Philadelphia Phillies traded Sal Fasano to the New York Yankees for Hector Made (minors). July 30, 2006 The Philadelphia Phillies traded Bobby Abreu and Cory Lidle to the New York Yankees for Matt Smith, C.J. Henry (minors), Carlos Monastrios (minors), and Jesus Sanchez (minors). July 31, 2006 The Pittsburgh Pirates traded Craig Wilson to the New York Yankees for Shawn Chacon. July 2, 2005 The New York Yankees traded Paul Quantrill to the San Diego Padres for Darrell May, Tim Redding, and cash. July 28, 2005 The Colorado Rockies traded Shawn Chacon to the New York Yankees for Ramon Ramirez and Eduardo Sierra (minors). August 27, 2005 The Chicago Cubs traded Matt Lawton to the New York Yankees for Justin Berg (minors). Is there one trade here that wasn't a giveaway to the Yankees?:dunno: