rician blast

hilarious! leave it to the rivernator to post this bullcrap. So now BDD speaks for "the masses?" I haven't hear ANYONE I consider a decent Sox fan question Coco in the least. nice try, BBDick.

I'd grab it, I'd make sure that someone in authority knew I had the valid ball, then I'd extort as much as possible from whomever I could. And if I caught 756 I'd do the same thing because personally I don't give a rat's ass who has the most hr's, who has the most RBI's, who has the most of this and that.

The following is from this month's ESPN magazine. Kind of goes with what many were saying in the "overrated players" thread regarding Jetesy: CLUTCH IS JUST ANOTHER WORD FOR LUCK. LOOK AT CAPTAIN CLUTCH HIMSELF Derek Jeter is not clutch. This is meant as neither indictment nor blasphemy. It is explanatory, not accusatory. But it runs the risk of being dismissed as hating because Jeter is a cathedral, and worship tends to cloud fanatics, faith obstructing facts. So forgive me, for I am about to sin. When it comes to Captain Clutch, the secondbest shortstop on his side of the Yankee infield, I'm an atheist. Jeter is a very good player. Don't misunderstand. Very good. But he has been lucky, too. Right place, right time. He wouldn't be viewed as a mystic winner if he had been exactly the same player, or even a better one, and come up with the Pirates. Never underestimate the importance of luck in the building of legends. Bill Belichick, for example, was Dave Wannstedt before stumbling upon Tom Brady in the sixth round. A's GM Billy Beane, baseball's “smartest” man, is asked what one word he'd most like to associate with a player: leader, winner, heart, know-how, clutch, lucky. “Lucky,” he says. “Because then people will attach those other things to him anyway.” We love intangibles. They are the bedrock of all faiths, explanations for the inexplicable. This is how it is with worship. If you want to believe, your eyes will see the face of God in a cheese sandwich. So it can't be that Jeter has been passenger as often as driver, fortunate enough to be one of the few constants during a decade on the postseason stage. It can't be that Jeter always seems to be around big moments because he has played 115 postseason games (more than Barry Bonds, Albert Pujols and Willie Mays combined). What chance does “sample size” have against “clutch” amid fanatics who prefer to believe in abstractions? You play 115 postseason games (more than Craig Biggio, Jeff Bagwell, Rafael Palmeiro and Ted Williams combined) and, every once in a while, Jeffrey Maier is going to reach out and turn one of your outs into a home run. Miguel Tejada might make a famous flip to his catcher to save a series too if you gave him 95 more games of postseason chances than he's had. Jeter is great, just not great whenever he feels like it. But he's literally in a no-lose position now that we've erected the shield of clutch around him. And it doesn't much matter that he's had so much help that when he got hurt one Opening Day, the Yankees started 18-3 without him-the best start in the history of America's most fabled franchise. Jeter gets credit for saving the Yankees with that flip to home plate but doesn't get blamed for the team's postseason failures since. And think of the times he's been bailed out. His four-strikeout performance against the Twins in the 2004 playoffs was erased because “choker” Alex Rodriguez lifted the Yankees with a monster performance in the same game. And once Aaron Boone hit the Game 7 homer to carry Jeter and the rest of the Yankees past the Red Sox, it didn't matter that Jeter was 7-for-30 with three runs and two RBIs. Perception takes a bat to reality. Pretty good deal if you can get it. We ignore that no player in baseball, not one, made more outs to end games last season with the tying or winning run on base than Jeter did. Instead, we celebrate his eighthinning homer to beat the Royals earlier this month with tabloid headlines about clutchness even though, according to the Elias Sports Bureau, it was only the second time in Jeter's career that he had any kind of hit after the eighth inning to drive in both the tying and winning runs. Bernie Williams is the only other offensive Yankee to have been around for this entire run, and he has exactly the same number of postseason at-bats as Jeter: 462. In those at-bats, Williams has six more homers, 11 more doubles, 21 more walks, 33 more RBIs, two more runs and seven fewer strikeouts. So why isn't he Captain Clutch? The moments that reaffirm belief, we keep. The ones that don't, we discard. Pressed to name the single most valuable intangible Jeter owns, Beane says, “He runs really hard every time to first base.” Beane knows that Jeter, although an exceptional player, doesn't “know how to win” or “raise his game.” In fact, Jeter is the same player in the postseason that he is in the regular season. Regular season: .314 batting average, .386 on-base percentage, .461 slugging percentage. Postseason: .307 batting average, .379 on-base percentage, .463 slugging percentage. Why? Because he has gotten to play virtually an entire regular-season's worth of postseason games. That isn't clutch. That's averages averaging out. But myth is more fun than math.

maybe "the shadow" since his 5:00 shadow seems to come in at 11:00 am. or sasquatch? wolfboy?

not for nothin' but the mere existence of this thread in a Sox forum further drives home the fascination Yankees fans have with the Red Sox and their NATION. I think it's really more a compliment on the Sox and their fans than an indictment of Yankee fans and their boards...although how would I know, since I, like most Sox fans, don't venture to the Yankee forums. Anyway, the good and benevolent Sox fans must be doing their job of educating those on the dark side, as they continue to hang around here. Good job guys and gals.

The chant has been around way longer than the who's your Daddy incident, but anyway, As a diehard Sox fan I will say this...I HATE the chant. It's stupid. It's insulting to the intelligence of REAL Sox fans. For krist sake, how does a team that has more historical success than any other SUCK? Wanna say Giambi is a juicer? ok. AROD is poser and a primadonna? fine. Sheffield is a lieing sack of s***? great. Joe Torre picks his nose? fantastic. All of these are supported in fact. But the Yankees do not suck, they've used their massive resources to assemble a nice collection of players, and while you might not like it they are a force in the league and thus do not suck.

But there are statistical measures of exactly the "clutch" situations you describe above. A lot was made last year of Oritz's performance from the 7th inning on, in close games, with RISP and it is there that his numbers blew away AFraud's and is the reason why many thought he should win the MVP despite being a DH. Those same numbers have shown Jeter, who is a great ballplayer, doesn't come through in those situations. Ok, let me wrap it up because the conversation has turned away from the intent of the thread. Is Jeter overrated? Its in the eye of the beholder. If a writer calls him the best SS in the league, then the writer is overrating him. If someone claims that they won 4 WS BECAUSE of him then they are overrating him. Since I don't consider him to be clutch in the first place and I choose not to listen to the ball-washing NYC media, I say no he isn't overrated, not by me anyway. He's a very nice player on a team of all-stars, and he generally helps them have a winning team. He is what he is.

you shouldn't care to go through it again, because you are totally missing 90% of my message. He's a very good player, knows the game, plays to win, is a great teammate, solid defensively, very good hitter. The point was he has NOT been a clutch hitter in recent years. Does it make him a lousy player? no. Does it make him not a great leader? no. I am not arguing those points at all...had he been with the Sox the past 10 years I'd have been thrilled. I have NO bias whatsoever against him. The point is, and many OBJECTIVE Yankee fans will agree, he hasn't come through in the clutch, at the plate, enough to be considered a clutch hitter. I'm not sure how much more clear I can be about it...and I'm not sure how the numbers can be ignored.

I've got to laugh at the title of this post. What it made me think of is we're down the little league field a few nights ago and a kid on my team, a Sox fan, has a 2004 Sox WS Champs hat on. Another kid on the team, a Yankee fans, walks up to him, reads the hat and says"25 to 1". The Sox fan says "what?" Yank fans says "25 to 1". Sox fan dismisses Yank fan like the punk he is and the Yankee fan says "we've won 25 WS and you've won 1. I just started laughing as the Sox fan explained that the Yanks had won 26 titles, all of them coming between the Sox last two WS titles and that it's not 25 to 1 or 26 to 1, etc. And seeing the title of this thread made me think....that Yankee fan someday will figure it all out...and he can be another annoying little pimple-of-a-man like Rivernator and spend his time as a Yankee fan in a Sox forum, reminding Sox fans of the success of the franchise from the Bronx as a means of dealing with his own's dissapointments in life, which based upon his posts, I am guessing are quite numerous. Yes. It's not so hard to see the future sometimes.

read the original post. it wasn't about Sox fans. numbskull.

exactly what I've been saying true, I noted this and used the play vs. Oakland as an example earlier isolated? I have no idea what you mean by isolated...on a team that boasts three $20+ million guys (at least this year's salaries) in Jetes, ARod and Giambi, also includes Sheffield, Matsui, Cano, Posada...more talent than ANY OTHER TEAM...how can he be considered "isolated"? like I said, very good all-around player, solid but not spectacular d-man, good hitter, good baserunner, knows the game. thanks for mentioning this...basically what you are saying is he is surrounded by the best team that money can buy. His productivity is, will be and has always been, assisted by the talent around him. He's a very good player and appears to be a good team guy. He still ain't clutch at the plate though.

Going by what my eyes tell me, and I watch a fair amount of Yankee games as well, I can say i've been astonished by the amount of game-ending, inning-ending, rally-ending at bats Captain Intangibles has had the last 2 years. I don't think I need to see every game to say he's a great all-around player, but is not as clutch as the ball-washing Yankee writers would have us believe. Let's look at another example....in hockey. I have watched virtually every Bruins game for years. Joe Thornton put up nice overall numbers, no question. But "my eyes" told me that when the heat was on, the guy wasn't going to get it done. In the playoffs I never felt I could count on him. What did the numbers say? The numbers said he was a horrible playoff performer in his tenure with the Bruins. Good regular season numbers...the kind of player often referred to in baseball circles as a "number hanger" but not a true clutch performer (at least not with the B's) And this was on some B's teams that were at or near the top of the heap in terms of regular season points. Jeter is a heady player, good baserunner, good situational guy, solid, but not great, defender, very good hitter. Has he been clutch in recent seasons at the plate? By the definition baseball's guru's are using, the answer is no. I'm not sure how watching him ground out or pop out in late innings in tight games, a fact that bears out in the numbers, can be dismissed if one watches more often. It is what it is...he is what he is...but the numbers don't lie.

"stats and fancy formulas" may not tell the whole picture...I agree on that...but tell me this: Did David Ortiz's stats from last year support what we Red Sox fans saw all year in terms of his clutchness? Consider: Ortiz hit .352 with runners in scoring position, and he hit .346 in close and late situations, defined as any situation in the seventh inning or later, ahead by a run, tied, or with the tying run on base, at the plate, etc. He lead the league with 21 game winning RBIs in '05 while 19 of his HRs gave the Sox a tie or lead. Without hearing those numbers ALL Sox fans already know what a clutch performer he was in 2004 and 2005...the numbers simply SUPPORT what "our eyes see". So In Jeter's case, why would our eyes tell us a story so different from what the numbers say? Again, not bashing Jeter, I like him, I think he's a great player, but I don't buy into the alleged "clutchness".

I'd have been happy if AGonz woulda successfully dropped the bunt down last night instead of slapping away at the ball. Jeeezus H. if my kid did that on his team he'd get screamed at. Learn to fkn bunt .

I don't have the stats readily available, but I think it was Olney who wrote an article not long ago about clutch and non-clutch guys in terms of hitting. Jeter was one of the WORST. It was based upon the typical "clutch" measures like hits that drove in tieing or go-ahead runs from the 7th inning on. I was actually very surprised that his average in those situations was so paltry, but I think its part of the media's constant harping on how clutch he is. Don't get me wrong here...I like Jeter, I respect him for what he is, which is a solid SS and a very good hitter overall. I like some of the things he's done on the field (the flip to Posada against Oakland, etc.) but I don't buy into the hype that he is so clutch. If I can find that article I'll post it.

Assuming you are referring to the Rivernator, I'd tend to agree.

easy soxie babe...the Rivernator is a "med student" and you don't want to try and match wits with someone of his extreme "intelligence".

And rightfully so, I'd say. For Krist sake, you get hammered and you lose all control? And its cuz of blooms tomb, not your own stupidity? What are ya, in Med School or something?

hmmmm ironically apropos comment above. "The game of life is the game of boomerangs. Our thoughts, deeds and words return to us sooner or later, with astounding accuracy." ~ Florence Shinn, Writer

spelling aside, I think his point was delivered and nary a poster misunderstood. i mean, c'mon, the Bronx IS a friggin sesspool.

One Red... great post, its a perfect response. just hope for once the Quiver-nator gets it.

I'd agree with that assessment...the market pressure is less of an issue than the scribes would like us to believe. In some cases its just an excuse. I thought Weaver AND Suppan both were given second chances...they've both started for other teams since their forays in NY and Boston, no? And they've been unable to rise to any level of stardom.

while I had hoped ahh would comment, I like your response and tend to agree. Yeah Bonds "cheated" and Giambi "cheated" and so, apparently "unknowingly" (bwahahahahaha) did Sheffield, but how many other guys have? Palmiero, McGwire have been implicated. I always had suspicions about Nomar. Camminitti, Canseco for sure. What about the fringe players who cheated just to make the majors or to stick around a little longer than they might have. How about pitchers who probably cheated to some extent, to get their fastballs up to 95 from 92? Bottom line with Bonds, if I may direct the conversaiton there, is this guy was quite possibly the best all around ballplayer of his era BEFORE he started hitting HRs at the pace he did from 2000-2004. The juice absolutely, positively increases performance....this is not a deniable fact, there is no argument against this notion. Regardless, Bonds is a tremendous player...and 'roids didn't make Bonds, they just made him better. ame with Giambi, to a lesser extent. From a personal perspective, I can attest to the "benefits" of steroids. I cycled Test and Decadurabolin for short periods of time over a couple of years and the results were amazing. I was faster, stronger, threw harder, hit the ball farther, had much improved concentration and confidence, was more aggressive, and I could swear I saw better.

Neither Weaver nor Suppan could be considered "stellar" at ANY point in their careers, with or without the Yanks or Sox.

OK, just for fun let's test your statement above...how do you feel about Barry Bonds?