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I understand why both teams would want to do this trade, but why in hell would the cubs give up Prior PLUS patterson PLUS Cedano? I imagine that they view Prior as nearly as valuable as Manny, so why give up anyone else? I could see Prior and Patterson, but I imagine they would ask for more than a three for one deal. It would also placate the fanbase in a unique way--changing the conversation basically. Instead of people saying "we need a top notch CF and SS" people might start saying LOOK AT THAT PITCHING STAFF!! Schilling, Beckett, Prior, Papelbon and Wakefield? Wow! Yup. Yup, add depth to the bullpen. I lost ya there. I put Papelbon in the rotation before I take Meche. Second, Cleveland isn't stupid. They want Marte for Crisp, not Arroyo. If it was as simple as Arroyo for Crisp then it would be done by now. Third, Seattle isn't dealing Clement for Reed. They're trying to trade Lester or Papelbon for Reed and Meche. No thanks. No crisp without Marte. No Reed without Paps/Lester. But Patterson is a fine 1-2 year replacement before Murphy/Moss/Ellsbury are ready. There is definitely a hole in the #4 spot... HUGE hole. This team would look a lot like the Cubs have looked the past few years... namely, not very good. Ortiz and Lee cancel each other out. Great pitching, not much offense. I worry about that part of it. Its a stretch. Mostly I would say the sox could wait a year and make a hard push for someone via FA, as the above team isn't TOO expensive. Perhaps. Good post.

Seriously? Are the O's also looking to trade Brian Roberts and Bedard? I thought the point of these trades was to make the team BETTER, not to dump everything they have overboard while taking on a 20million dollar salary. I just don't believe it. I imagine the sox would swallow some of that, perhaps trading Lopez and taking some salary hits to get Tejada. What the hell would that look like? Manny and Clement for Tejada and Lopez? Ha! ha ha. ha ha ha ha.

Doesn't that take position into account though? I thought I read that you said that earlier, either here or in another thread. In any case, as far as the lineup goes, Manny is more valuable to just about ANY lineup than Tejada. As far as the entire team goes, I agree, its basically a wash given Tejada's defense and the non-measurables like leadership, pep and enthusiasm.

I would want Milledge AND Beltran, personally. That would be about right. One of them would probably have a pretty good career from here on out.

Yeah, but the amazing thing is that the Orioles are actually looking for a way to move Tejada. I think that Zambrano aside the Sox have the best offer on the table. Perhaps nothing will come of it, but it seems to be gaining steam rather than losing it. Tejada said again today that he wants to be traded, now even more than when he first asked for a trade. Multiple sources (probably quoting each other) are saying that the biggest thing holding the sox up is money. The second biggest thing is not wanting to let Miggy hurt them this season. Personally, I think Manny is an offensive upgrade over Tejada for the Birds. However, with Ortiz Tejada should have the best protection of his career and will be a more than adequate replacement. I invision .300/30/120 or so from him, and .300/40/140 from Ortiz. People think there will be an Ortiz related drop off, but I think Tejada would help with that somewhat.

First of all, I consider money I spend on rent, food, medical needs, etc., as "hard earned". I consider money I spend on going to sox games, renting movies, drinking beer to be "well earned". Personally, I see a difference. I can't always earn money to go to a game, and I'm going to work harder to get food than to go to a game. When I have some extra, I see a ball game. Second, I'm not sure you understand how booing works. People don't just show up to a park and boo, as you imply. Nobody buys their ticket and says "I can't wait to boo my team today." (Except, perhaps, Detroit Lions fans). Fans want to see players go out there and give it their all. When a dumbass play happens, or when Renteria boots his 30th ball at 10 million a year, that's when booing happens. Of course I want to see the sox win when they play, but if they don't I don't see it as a wasted opportunity. I love going to a ball game because you never know what you're going to see. Teams that are rebuilding are not giving up. They are playing people who haven't yet proven themselves. "Put it this way, would you pay money to go watch a movie that promises its sequel will be much much better?" Put it this way, if you go see the sequel without having seen the first movie you are both a dumbass and a bandwagon jumper. I guess that you believe it is only worth watching players who are at the top of their games; guys who won't improve any more but who have reached their peak: Jeter, A-Rod, Matsui, Posada, Giambi, Sheffield, Damon etc., I like watching guys grow and become better players before my eyes. I think that's what attaches a player to a fanbase; I imagine that's something you appreciated about Jeter, wasn't it? I also imagine that's one of the thing that I hear frustrated yankee fans venting about when they wish the Yankees would produce some homegrown talent of their own. It will be fun watching Papelbon, Lester, Marte, Beckett, Pedroia, Hansen and Ellsbury get better over the next few years. Fun for me at least.

Manny can still go, but not in this deal. I would rather put our minor leaguers in there (Pedroia and Moss/Murphy/Ellsbury) and let Manny either show up or not show up.

Not in the slightest. I'm happy with Beckett. Their numbers are so similar that the only difference appears to be a) types of injuries each suffers and Beckett has a playoff-MVP under his belt.

New York is the biggest city in the country and in the top 10 biggest cities in the world. Of course they'll have the highest attendence. The fact that people boo shows that they care. Its all part of the fun of being a fan. Finally, you want to put a bet down on whether or not the red sox lose 100 games this year smart ass? Any wager you want, I'm willing to take it.

So you probalby advocate for tearing down Fenway to add 20,000 more seats to get more money right? It's easy for you to say when its not your extra 12 million that would be offered to Damon. The yankees are the ONLY team that does that. Can't you see that? There is ONE team that constantly, year after year throws money at star players, often overpaying them by millions and millions of dollars. And what happens? They don't win. They don't win the WS at least. When they did win it they didn't have a 200 million payroll, they had homegrown players and cheap team-player types. But I digress...

I like Trot to Seattle for something interesting. At least test the waters. I hate the sosa idea. the guy was just awful last year and is the most obvious juicer in MLB. Not only did he cork his bat, but he was juicing year after year and adding to the inflated numbers that ruined the record books with a permanent footnote. That's the only possible explanation I can think of for his obvious drop in numbers and production. He went from a .437 OBP in 2001 to a .295 OBP last year. Just awful.

Good post sweetchinmusic. I see you love the sox no matter what Will reply more in a sec...

Stop scratching your head. They are trying to get cheaper, to remain flexible to possibly resign players like Ortiz and Beckett, or pick up players for REASONABLE prices (not 20million for manny). They are trying to get younger so they can recover once Schilling, Varitek and Trot are gone in the next 2-3 years. They are trying to remain competative so fans will continue to show up and make Fenway the most home-field friendly park in the bigs. It isn't some never-before-seen move in baseball. The sox are trying to rebuild the foundation of their house while still living in it. They will probably not be the best team in baseball next year, but given that the last few years have had surprise teams win the WS the FO figures why not go for it now. If you are having a hard time keeping the faith with this team then perhaps the red sox aren't the team for you. The mets look like a good alternative candidate: they are getting older and more expensive. The yankees are always a good choice; perhaps you should check out some of those teams. The sox are known for their ups and downs, and its not that big of a deal. I don't think this down will be as big a rebuilding as people are making it out to be. I find what the sox are doing to be really interesting and thought provoking. I'm not sure they know what they're doing every step of the way, but I don't think teams ever do. They have been good the last few years, and will be good again in 2007. 2006? We'll have to see. I would rather have Beckett, Papelbon and Lester for the next few years than the staff we had last year. If it means we have to wait a year to get it going in full-force then so be it.

Are you implying that the only reason people go to Yankee stadium is to see high priced uber-stars? If the Yanks rebuilt then the fans would stop going? That's really sad. I guess I have always felt that Sox fans are actually better fans than yankee fans, given that they will still go to see the team regardless of how good the team is that year, selling out for years on end to see a team that hasn't won a WS for years. Yankee Stadium doesn't even sell out for games against the A's or Angels sometimes... that's astounding to me. That being said, Marte shouldn't be made into an outfielder. However, if Manny could play the wall then I suppose Marte could learn to do it as well.

Could we land Chipper Jones AND Miguel Tejada in two deals? All the prospects that have been mentioned are exclusive to their respective deals, so if they are possible individually then both are possible. If we got Chipper I might be tempted to send Marte to Cleveland for Crisp, if we got a decent prospect in return. I emphisize MIGHT and TEMPTED. Again, just for fun: Crisp CF Loretta 2B Tejada SS Ortiz DH Chipper LF (?) Lowell 3B (?) Trot RF Tek C Youkilis 1B That's two guys out of position (Youk and Chipper), but an upgrade at a few positions. We would address two holes, and ultimately lose Clement, Arroyo, Manny and Marte while gaining Tejada, Chipper Jones and Coco Crisp (Plus a middle tier starter from ATL probably) Just a stupid thought, but it kept me up thinking last night so I figured I would share...

Horrible, Horrible deal. I'm pretty sure the M's were kidding. Maybe Jamie Moyer and Gil Meche for Beckett and Lester? The red sox should counter with an offer of Jonathan Papelbon and Manny Ramirez for Jeremy Reed and Felix Hernandez. THAT I would do.

Yeah, I wish the sox had resigned Pedro so he could have sat out the end of last season when we needed him in the playoffs. I also wish they would have given Damon 15 mill per season, just so the Yankees couldn't get him. Come on man, there are plenty of other things to be concerned about or paying attention to. We lost Damon, he wanted more than the sox were willing to pay. Its time to focus on getting something good for Manny and resign Ortiz.

I'm sure that's intelligent, but why? Just curious.

I would love to have Chipper Jones. He would be a very interesting addition to the AL East rivalr(ies). WHy would Atlanta do this though? Clement and Arroyo? Seriously? Manny for McPherson and Chone Figgins? I've always liked Figgins, and getting McPherson would allow us to trade Marte for Crisp. Chipper in LF? Figgins in CF? McPherson (or Marte) at 3B? Just for "fun"??? Let's see: Figgins CF Loretta 2B Ortiz DH Chipper LF Tek C Trot RF Marte/McPherson 3B Youkilis 1B Cora SS Beckett Schilling Wakefield Wells? Papelbon? Wells won't stay. Could lester just come up as a #5 starter? He has thrown 300 innings in the minors or so, is that enough? This scenario looks iffy when its all layed out like that. Perhaps I should have asked this first, but is there a link for the Atlanta Journal-Constitution article? I don't believe it.

This is all ridiculuous. I don't see any 4 team deal coming. 1) The O's would need to get something else other than Lugo et. al, in any 4 team deal. Milledge would be a good start. What it comes down to, I think, is that the Mets are willing to give up a lot if they end up with Manny in the end. They can afford him and he would be just what they need. Does anyone really think that they will give up Tejada for a few B- players and an A- prospect? I sure don't. 2) Tampa has no interest in giving the sox anything they want; they have the sox in the palm of their hand for Julio Lugo. LUGO for crying out loud. 3) The impression I get about "why don't the sox just keep manny" is that he is having personal issues that the Sox brass are sympathetic to. Someone called WEEI today and asked the big show guys whether reporters knew what was going on with manny and they were just not willing to talk about it--for personal reasons. The guys both said, essentially, "Yes, most reporters know what's up with him but they don't want to discuss it, its personal". I was surprised by the lack of gossip, but had heard earlier in the day someone mention that his wife REALLY REALLY wanted out. She apparently hates living in Boston and was likely the one that wanted him to sell his apartment. That seems like the type of thing that most GM's/Owners/Players would be sympathetic to: the whole "Family comes first" mantra comes to mind. So perhaps that explains why the sox are willing to try everything they can to trade him, but are unwilling to do it if it costs them greatly. Only a deal along the lines of Tejada for Manny, without it costing the sox a lot of money would suffice IMHO. Anyway, I don't think any of this stuff will happen. I will be happy for Manny and his family if he gets out without it costing the sox 10m a year to make it happen. Get Tejada? Sure. But Baltimore won't do it if they don't get a marquee player in return.

Hidalgo would make me puke.

so the pitch counts made him start giving up more hits and throwing walks in the 5th and 6th innings? I watched the games and i understand pitch counts. He was getting tired.

Both takes are solid. Its nice to have a Papelbon, aint it fellas? I don't think it will hurt in either case. I don't get the impression that he will feel any pressure. He sure didn't look like he felt pressure last year. He will be good whatever their decision is. Ultimately, I want him to start. If the sox staff doesn't think he's ready to start, then I trust their instincts more than mine. Merry Christmas guys!

I don't think Papelbon will be starting to begin the season next year. I think he would do very well there, but I bet they'll still have clement and will keep Paps in the pen. I read the same discussion on SoSH and people are pretty convinced that's what's going to happen. He only has two really effective pitches right now (but his splitter will be nasty in time). I hope he starts eventually, but I don't see it right away. Even in his starts last year he got tired by the end. He could be just the beast the sox need out of the pen. He's got a great attitude wherever he's used.

I agree with you man. I don't think the sox were going above 4/40. Ask yourselves folks: IS JOHNNY DAMON WORTH MORE THAN JASON VARITEK? If yes then that's a slap to tek and needs to be backed up by stats. If he's not then the sox weren't going to go above what they offered Varitek. They hoped Damon would take a 'hometown' discount, or (barring that) that he would sign with someone not the Yankees. The fact of the matter is that the worst case scenario happened, but if you wanted the sox to get into a bidding war with the yanks, eventually getting up to 13, 14, 15 million a year then you're crazy. SOme people call this stupidity, I call it integrity. It forces the sox into a difficult spot, but one that they apparently would rather be in than having paid 3 million a year extra to someone who doesn't deserve it.