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The Yahoo league (associated with Talksox) last year was fun. I will say about half the people quit halfway through though so it kind of sucked. I finished 4th but I was active all season long-- I'm just not that good at it.

It's certainly the same IDEA, but the situations are quite different. Helton has declined 2 years in a row and has 5 years and $90 million left on his deal. Ramirez has shown no signs of slowing down despite a minor health issue last year and has 2 years and $40ish million left. If you assume Manny would have REQUIRED the team trading for him to pick up his 2 options at $20 million each that makes it a much closer comparison for the RECEIVING team, but the Red Sox are of no obligation to pick up those options while the Rockies are. From the Red Sox perspective he's a $40 million obligation. From the Rockies perspective, Helton, a declining player is a $90 million obligation. Even in this market $50 million (the financial difference between Manny and Helton) is a sh*tload of money. Manny is who he is, but at the end of the day he's one of the best hitters in the game. His slugging percentage is right where it should be and in fact, higher than last year. Helton has declined 2 years in a row. Also, ORS' point is a good one: The Red Sox can afford to keep Manny Ramirez and still field a competitive team. The Rockies on the other hand keep their overall payroll lower, and Helton's contract is inhibiting them to a certain extent. Granted, they'd probably spend the money stupidly (see Hampton, Mike and Neagle, Denny) but shedding Helton's salary means a hell of a lot more to them than shedding Manny's salary would be for the Red Sox.

I applaud the Red Sox for sticking to their guns on this one. Look-- Kevin Millar was "in the best shape of his life" coming into the 2005 season when he was the worst first baseman in baseball, offensively and defensively. I don't put much stock in players SAYING their "finally healthy" until they actually do something on the field that actually proves it. To me, Todd Helton is suspect at this point because he's played his entire career in the friendliest hitters' park in the game, and he's been declining each of the past 2 seasons. Hopefully it's a coincidence that his decline started 2 years ago and hopefully he gets healthy proves that it was just bad luck-- and returns to being one of the most prolific lefty hitters in the game. I still don't fault the Red Sox, because there's no PROOF that he'll do that. Todd Helton at 6 years and 90 million is way too much. Todd Helton at 5 years 53 (I guess I'm assuming they'd buy out the final year of his contract? I read there's a $4.6 million buyout or a $23 million salary) is better, and even sane if you consider that's pretty much what Gary Mathews will get. I'd imagine the Red Sox were OK with paying that it came down to talent. Hansen and Delcarmen are young power arms. Neither one of them has been a closer so they're tagged with the "middle relief" role-- which essentially gives them no value on the trade market. To me, they're more valuable in Boston than they are on the market. Mike Lowell is a gold glove caliber third baseman and a decent bat. The Red Sox would have downgraded their defense with this trade and upgraded from Mike Lowell to Todd Helton. Now, if we assume Todd Helton was severely hurt last year and take the average production from 2005 and 2006 as a general estimation of what he'll do in 2007 (I understand it's crude but it's close enough for now) .310/.420/.500 with 42 doubles, 18 homers, and 80 RBIs. This is playing HALF his games at Coors also. If you take his ROAD rate stats for the last 3 years: 293/.409/.473 That's still decent, but not spectacular. Consider he'd be replacing Mike Lowell in the lineup, who's 32, plays a harder defensive position, and look at what he ALREADY DID in this market: .284/.339/.475 Not as good as Todd I'll admit, but what is the upgrade from Lowell to Helton WORTH? Tavarez and Hansen? Maybe. Tavarez, Hansen, + a premium prospect? I don't think so. Also consider the financial obligation. Lowell is owed $9 million and will almost certainly sign for that or less if the Sox desired to go that route. Helton would be at least $11 million a season for 5 seasons. I'm not heartbroken that this deal didn't go down.

I'll admit I didn't read all the posts in this thread-- way too many in 11 pages, so if I'm duplicating someone else's opinion that I didn't happen to notice I apologize. I'm probably in the minority here, but I don't give up much value for Todd Helton. He's 33 years old, his power the last 2 years has been declining, and there's no way he's a $15 million player IMO. Sure, he'll probably maintain a .300 average and a decent OBP throughout, but when a 33 year old player declines in power 2 years running (especially in this day and age) you start to ask questions. Not to mention that his home/road splits (and his home games are played in Colorado) were pretty substantial last season. The Red Sox IMO would be retarded to give up any top 10 prospects for this guy. He looks like he's in the decline and there's a SUBSTANTIAL financial commitment here. If they can buy low (meaning giving less than what he's worth) and the Rockies eat at least half his contract, I'd say go for it-- but otherwise he's a waste of time and effort. If this trade goes down and the Rockies get any of the highly talented Red Sox prospects I'll be pissed.

Even still it's retarded to base ANYONE's future on 164 ABs. It's such a small sample size in the grand scheme of things that it's not even worth discussing. By sheer luck the dude could have hit .400 or .100 in that many ABs (people do it all the time) and it doesn't mean he's a .400 or .100 hitter. Lugo's a career .277 hitter with an OBP of .340 and SLG of .402. These are the numbers I'd expect him to return to if not better because he's hitting in a better lineup with better protection, and in a pretty good hitters park especially for righties. He should get some cheap doubles off the wall and even some cheap homers that'd be flyouts in Tampa. Based on Red Sox' fans expectations of Drew (They seem to be low from what I've seen/heard), I don't see either as a dissapointment. However, if I had to choose one of these guys, it'd be Drew. I think Lugo is going to be just fine.

I agree. two lefties in the middle of the order leave you vulnerable to the lefty killer (and the Yankees have a good one in Myers) and having to pitch a lefty against Manny will make teams think twice. Plus, a big reason for keeping Manny is his protection he provides for Ortiz, and Drew just wouldn't provide that. Assuming Drew signs, 3-4-5 should be Ortiz, Manny, Drew. Sure, nobody's protecting Drew, but who'd you rather see walked? Ortiz or Drew? Hands down it's Drew. Not only is he less dangerous with the bat, but he's also more dangerous on the basepaths.

Jackson-- what's your source on the Chamberlain scouting report you quoted?

Trot Nixon was the ultimate class act in Boston and I wish him the best of luck in Cleveland whenever he isn't playing against the Red Sox. The bottom line is that he never lived up to his potential (or what was his perceived potential) and he just plain lost his power last year. I'd take him as a leadoff hitter in a minute because he can get on base despite seemingly declining skills.

For the record, Johnson's games pitched log vs the Red Sox in 2006: May 9th: 3.2 IP, 5 H, 7 R, 2 ER 5 BBs 3 K's. (Red Sox win 14-3 Johnson takes the loss). May 24th: 5 IP 9 H, 5 R, 5 ER 2 BBs, 8 K's. (Yankees win 8-6 Johnson gets the win). Aug 19th: 7 IP, 4 H, 5 R, 5 ER, 6 BBs, 3 K's. (Yankees win 13-5. Johnson gets the win). Sep 16th: 5.2 IP, 8 H, 5 R, 5 ER, 3 BBs, 6 K's. (Yankees win 7-5. ND for Johnson). The bottom line is that against the Red Sox last year, Johnson was decent but not great. He gave the Yankees a chance to win every time out (except for the first game in which he allowed 5 unearned runs) and got the win 2 times as a result of that. Johnson's production against the Red Sox alone is easily replaced by Pettite or Clemens. I won't say Igawa because we've got no idea what he brings on a daily basis.... I think Johnson was unhealthy (and unlucky) last year and should be better this year, and in that respect I'm not sad to see him go. However, to say even in jest that the Red Sox would pay his airfare to Arizona is overstating his contribution to the Red Sox/Yankee rivalry. He simply wasn't that good against us.

Jackson, I appreciate what you're saying, but honestly I think you're letting you're passion for the Yankees blind your opinion. The bottom line is that Wang is a contact pitcher who pitches in front of a marginal defensive team. Mientkiewicz will help, but Cano-Jeter-Rodriguez isn't an inspiring infield. I am a huge fan of Hideki Matsui, but he's not a tremendous defensive player and Damon/Abreu are in the decline phase of their careers. To boot, Wang is pitching in the division with the best offenses (Baltimore, Tampa, Toronto, and Boston will all have strong lineups) and Wang can't miss bats. He's due for a regression. Will he be a QUALITY pitcher next year? I believe he will. However, to believe that Wang will be anything more than a #3 pitcher in 2007 or ever is really blind optimism. He'll win a crapload of games next year because he'll be pitching behind the best offense in baseball, but I'd say a 4.50 ish ERA is what you'll get from him next year.

For what it's worth, Chein Ming Wang was the luckiest pitcher in baseball last year and Johnson was one of the unluckiest. This to me says expect Johnson to be better (even if it was in NY) and Wang to get worse. How much better/worse, it's hard to say. Here's the article http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/dips-lips-and-hips/ Now on to the trade: Despite reports that Randy Johnson says he'll be ready for Spring Training, many folks don't think he'll be ready to start the season. Take that into account and the Yankees got 3 prospects and a reliever (who'll be ready for opening day) for a 4 months of a 44 year old coming off of back surgery. I'd say they did pretty well especially considering Johnson's ugly numbers last season. a700, I don't put any stock in W-L numbers, it's too dependant on support from teammates, and Randy got tons. Now that Randy's in the NL West, presumedly a little luckier and a lot healthier, I expect him to return to being a good pitcher again. Gone are the 300 strikeout seasons but he should be a decent addition to the Diamondbacks young staff in May or whenever he's fully recovered. As far as which team had the better offseason... there's already a thread for that.

Neither team is done, both have at least one order of business to take care of (the Yankees trading Johnson seems inevitable, and Drew to the Sox also seems inevitable). That having been said, both teams are old or injury prone or both, so I imagine some contingencies being added over the next couple months. I don't forsee any major deals on either side (aside from Johnson/Drew). Courting Clemens obviously but that probably won't happen until April or May anyway because he only wants to pitch half a season. If anything, the Sox will break the prospect bank open to add a closer, but I'm not sold on Gonzalez or Cordero in the AL East.

If Drew is signed for $70 over 5 years with no protection, I'll agree it was a bad move. However, that hasn't happened yet. I think even you can agree that this deal has been delayed because the Sox haven't agreed to guarantee this guy $70 million. I firmly believe that this thing would have been done weeks ago if there wasn't some language issues. That having been said, the Sox have made bad moves before and recovered from them. I don't see making one bad move as an indicator of the entire offseason. Overall, the rotation will be better, the lineup will be better (even if Drew loses his power he'll be an improvement over Nixon last year), the defense will be comprable if not better, and the bullpen is a work in progress. At this stage of the game I'd call the offseason a success for the Red Sox.

How is the entire offseason contingent on Drew again? Sure, he may be a $70 million mistake, but do you think the deal's being held up because they haven't picked out what color tie he's going to wear at the press conference? The Red Sox are fighting to get protection from Drew's fraile body. Besides, Manny's back in town and he's never had adequate protection in Boston. All he does is hit, hit, hit. Lugo's a better offensive player than Gonzalez and he's at least comprable to Renteria and Cabrera. The lineup WILL be stronger than last season even without Drew. Meanwhile, the Sox receive a defensive upgrade at second while maintaining gold glove caliber Mike Lowell and an improving Kevin Youkilis. The pitching staff is stronger by virtue of Beckett adjusting to the AL, Matsuzaka and Papelbon being better than the stiffs the Sox had in the rotation last season, and Wakefield healthy. The only concern with the Red Sox right now is the bullpen, and like I've said that'll sort itself out. The bottom line is that you absolutely have to spin everything into a pro-Yankee standpoint, and the Drew signing (I'll admit, that's the difference between you and me) seems like the worst move the Sox have made. Of course, that determination will depend on what the actual deal is.

Of course you'd say that if that's the player who could potentially be wearing pinstripes. Vizcaino's a mid 3's reliever in the NL West, which IMO makes him a mid 4's reliever in the AL East. He's 32 which means he's at the tail end of his prime, more expensive. He's got better strikeout numbers at the MLB level than Medders did (which is in his favor), but Medders is 26 (which means he's entering his peak) and has a decent minor league track record. Personally I'd rather have Medders at this stage of their career. IMO, he's a better short term and long term option.

Another nugget I pull from those splits is that he's WAY better at home (Seattle's a pitcher's park) than on the road over his career. He also in general wasn't a very good pitcher last year. Now, horrible starters become dominant relievers all the time. It's partly because relieving is easier, partly because it's a much more random sample size than starting (which is why it fluctuates from season to season). I'd be concerned if Piniero was my #5 starter, but seeing as the incentives are based on games finished, they signed him with designed towards giving him a shot as the closer. To me he doesn't seem like a closer type. High homer and walk rates, low strikeout rates to me spells disaster in relief. But maybe the scouts saw something they liked, or some delivery flaw they thought they could fix?

he's worth $7 million in this market. But if the Yankees expect talent back they need to cover that extra $9 million, because he's a huge risk at $16 million IMO.

Randy Johnson has very little value right now if you ask me. Granted, he was in the AL East last year (the hardest division to pitch in IMO) but this guy's 43, has a $16 million price tag, and had a 5.00 ERA last season. Not to mention his strikeout rate is dropping, his walk rate is rising, and he just didn't intimidate last year like he used to. Not to mention he just had surgery so he's a big health question mark. There's a chance the back was a big factor in him sucking last year but there's a bigger chance it's the fact that he's 43. He'd be a better pitcher in Arizona or San Diego but he isn't worth all that much, especially if the Yankees don't want to pay any part of his salary.