ND-Bama BCS title game

[rjortiz]

Yeah, that's why they went undefeated and were ranked #1 heading into National Championship game.

 

I was talking about their Auburnesque performance on Monday night, not their performance during the regular season.

[Jasonbay44]

So based off one game, against the best team in the nation, they suck? Yeah, that makes sense.

[Emmz]

I was talking about their Auburnesque performance on Monday night, not their performance during the regular season.

 

Then the context was just really bad? Because you just said they suck, not that they sucked for the game which was pretty obvious by the score.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Haha nowhere special ... just realized I haven't been on here in awhile and figured I'd check in. How is it around here they days?

 

You haven't missed much, but it's damn good to see you're alive and back on the site!! That now leaves one Yankees fan on the site with common sense

[a700hitter]

You haven't missed much, but it's damn good to see you're alive and back on the site!! That now leaves one Yankees fan on the site with common sense

Jacko has been a good member for a long time.

[rjortiz]

So based off one game, against the best team in the nation, they suck? Yeah, that makes sense.

 

They played like Auburn did against Alabama on Monday night. They were pretty bad.

 

The Irish were a good football team all year, but they didn't show up at all on Monday.

[yankees228]

Along with Notre Dame having Golson throw too much and once again completely ignoring one of the more explosive backs in the nation in Cierre Wood, the other thing I thought that was stupid is they kept targeting Dee Milliner. Milliner is the best corner in the nation and is flying up draft boards and people think he is going to be a top 10 pick. If you are going to try throwing the ball deep and toss up jump ball opportunities, why would you target the best corner in the nation? Especially considering Notre Dame doesn't really have a great #1 WR.

 

Not that it would of mattered much, they weren't winning that game either way. I just thought Notre Dames offensive game plan was pretty bad.

 

Oh well, at least with Notre Dame losing and Teo struggling he is falling on draft boards, maybe the Steelers can pick him up now @ 17.

 

It was interesting that they kept targeting Milliner. It seemed like every time one of his primary targets, Eifert (when he was split out wide), Jones, or Daniels, was man to man vs press coverage (with only a single high safety) Golson was given the freedom to check into either a fade or a fade-stop, regardless of whether they were matched up with Milliner or Deion Belue. In fact, he did this twice on the opening series, on both 2nd and 2 and 3rd and 2. Also did it on the big fourth and five that Belue batted away. Kelly kept saying, leading up to the game, that they needed to be aggressive down the field if they were going to win, and this was their opportunity. Truth is, I'm sure they didn't want to go after Milliner so much, but he's the guy Alabama is willing to leave on an island with no safety help, so if they wanted to go down the field often times it had to be vs him.

[yankees228]

One really poor performance just doesn't make them a crappy team. The argument isn't that ND is the best, because they definitely aren't, but they still went undefeated and beat a few good team along the way, so they certainly don't suck as rjortiz was suggesting.

 

I think maybe they lose a couple of games more in the SEC, but there's no telling whether the egg they laid against Bama was a fluke or if they would consistently be blown out by top-tier teams.

 

I like their defense with Manti Te'o plenty, he really looks like a good prospect for almost any type of NFL defensive scheme.

 

I like Te'o too. He's not the type of player he has been made out to be (not even close, really) but he's probably a top 15 defensive player in the country, and should translate well to the next level. The player on that defense that has superstar potential, who will be in next year's draft, is Louis Nix. Very similar to Vince Wilfork, in my opinion. Has a chance to be an elite 0/1 technique 3-4 nose tackle.

[Emmz]

I like Te'o too. He's not the type of player he has been made out to be (not even close, really) but he's probably a top 15 defensive player in the country, and should translate well to the next level. The player on that defense that has superstar potential, who will be in next year's draft, is Louis Nix. Very similar to Vince Wilfork, in my opinion. Has a chance to be an elite 0/1 technique 3-4 nose tackle.

 

Are you putting your evaluation on Teo over scouts' opinions or what's going on? Dude's definitely the best ILB in the country, and the best ILB prospect for the upcoming draft.

[yankees228]

Are you putting your evaluation on Teo over scouts' opinions or what's going on? Dude's definitely the best ILB in the country, and the best ILB prospect for the upcoming draft.

 

My personal evaluation of Te'o isn't all that different than how the scouts see him. He was horrible on Monday night, by both the eye test and PFF's grading system (-5.7). Unfortunately for him this was the first time he faced NFL talent on the interior of the offensive line (and the top two running backs he had scene all year), and he came up way short. Contrast that with someone like Nix who played a solid game, often winning his one on one matchup with Barrett Jones when he was playing the zero technique. The point is that Monday was a sort of litmus test for many of these highly touted ND defenders who feasted on what essentially amounted to poor competition over the course of the season. Some of them were decent, others horrible. Mayock talked after the game about how awful a performance it was, but he should be able to stay in the first round. The fact that he had to say 'should' is pretty telling. He fell pretty steeply on SB Nation's draft board and some of ESPNs mocks.

 

As for him definitely being the best ILB in the country, I couldn't disagree more. The funny thing is, he wasn't even the best ILB on the field Monday night. That would be CJ Mosley, who would almost certainly go higher in April's draft had he chosen to enter. I'd also take Alec Ogletree and possibly Kevin Minter over Te'o. All four of these guys have had comparable years, but Mosley, Ogletree, and Minter were doing it against much tougher competition, but just didn't get the same hype.

 

And none of that even touches the point I actually made, which is that he's a top 15 player in the country. I don't even see that as controversial. Just for starters, he was the fourth best defensive player on the field Monday night (Nix, Mosley, and Milliner). Beyond that, off the top of my head, Lotulelei, Jones, Elam, Werner, Clowney, Mingo, Ogletree, and Moore are all almost certainly better, and the list probably could include a few more.

 

I don't really see this as a slight at Te'o, by the way. He's one of the five best ILBs in the country (maybe even top three), and he's one of the fifteen best defensive players in the country. It's just that the hype surrounding him (and the awards that came with that hype) were undeserved, simply because there are better players.

 

EDIT: It's very close with a couple of the guys I named, and you could make a good case that he's better than one or two of them. But we're talking about a guy who won the Maxwell, Walter Camp, Bronko Nagurski, Lombardi, Chuck Bednarik, and Lott ... and nearly won the Heisman. He's a very good player, but he's not nearly that good. So to my original comments, I see nothing remotely controversial.

[yankees228]

Just want to point about one more thing about Te'o, which probably gets overlooked. At Notre Dame, during pass plays, Bob Diaco allows Te'o to play robber coverage, freelancing and reading the QBs eyes. He does this almost exclusively, and he's good at it. But that won't be the case in the NFL. At times he'll be able to play the robber, but often times he'll be forced to play man coverage vs backs or tight ends and I've read plenty of quotes from NFL scouts and executives with concern over whether or not he has the speed to do this. So in terms of his talents translating to the NFL, people take his pass coverage as a sure thing (due to the INTs this year), but those plays came via responsibilities that he often won't be tasked with on Sundays.

 

And that's one of the big problems with teams drafting linebackers and defensive backs out of a Bob Diaco defense. He plays almost no man coverage, and keeps things exceedingly simple for his linebackers on pass plays vs run plays and zone runs vs power runs. And he does this for good reason, it works when you have way more talent than the other team, as was the case with many of the games Notre Dame played this year. But, in my opinion, this isn't the best preparation for the next level, where assignments and responsibilities are totally different. Contrast this with the NFL style defense that Nick Saban and Kirby Smart employ at Alabama, and you see why many linebackers and defensive backs out of the Capstone aren't just successful in the NFL, but successful immediately. And this is something Bill Belichick made mention of when he drafted Dont'a Hightower, for instance.

[Emmz]

Linebackers don't usually face OL 1v1 either though, they're usually going to deal with fullbacks when they're trying to make a stop or rush the passer, and often times the ILB isn't rushing the passer, he's playing a zone.

 

Also, why do you assume he'll have to play man in the NFL? Most teams run systems where the linebackers drop back into a zone. Considering most linebackers are inept in man-to-man coverage I'd say he'll be just fine.

 

And uhh, last I checked his awards would indicate he was the best ILB. Honestly you're just going off of the one game, and it's obvious because you keep bringing it up like it's the indicator of all indicators. Draft stock is meaningless, just look at what Vontaze Burfict did this year. Undrafted after being a projected top 15 pick, he's been great.

 

Imo this is about the same as your Justin Blackmon analysis last year.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Jacko has been a good member for a long time.

 

was thrown in to imply it was a joke haha. Jacko does have common sense, I just like to pick on him cause ORS isn't here to do it.

[yankees228]

Linebackers don't usually face OL 1v1 either though, they're usually going to deal with fullbacks when they're trying to make a stop or rush the passer, and often times the ILB isn't rushing the passer, he's playing a zone.

 

Also, why do you assume he'll have to play man in the NFL? Most teams run systems where the linebackers drop back into a zone. Considering most linebackers are inept in man-to-man coverage I'd say he'll be just fine.

 

And uhh, last I checked his awards would indicate he was the best ILB. Honestly you're just going off of the one game, and it's obvious because you keep bringing it up like it's the indicator of all indicators. Draft stock is meaningless, just look at what Vontaze Burfict did this year. Undrafted after being a projected top 15 pick, he's been great.

 

Imo this is about the same as your Justin Blackmon analysis last year.

 

I'll try to take this point by point, for clarity.

 

On linebackers not facing offensive linemen frequently: That's just not true at all. On power runs the fullback's responsibility is the LMOLS, and either the play side tackle deals with the ILB to seal of the backside, the pulling guard deals with the ILB as the lead blocker, or, on rare occasions the weak side tackle is tasked with getting up to the second level and dealing with one of the ILBs. On zone runs the chance of the ILB dealing with the fullback is great than with power runs (mostly because, like I said, on power runs it basically never happens), but there's as good a chance as an uncovered offensive linemen being tasked with getting off his double team and then getting to the second level to deal with the ILB as there is with the fullback blocking the ILB as the lead man. And Te'o almost never rushes the passer so dealing with a blocking fullback on pass rush is a moot point, as he's almost always tasked with the robber position. Point is, Te'o will deal with an offensive linemen one on one way more than he'll deal with a fullback or even a tight end. I understand that the common perception of football is a fullback leading through the hole and taking on the ILB, but reality disagrees.

 

On linebacker assignments in the NFL on pass plays: It's true that they are asked to play zone, but, in order to be an every down linebacker you really have to be able to hold up in man coverage. Te'o's value takes a hit if he's not going to be an every down linebacker, but that remains to be seen. The only point is that I've read quotes with NFL executives saying they're concerned about his ability to hold up in man coverage because of his lack of speed. Here's on article in particular that I remember reading about a month ago.

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/08/manti-teo-will-be-a-first-round-pick-but-some-question-his-speed/

 

On the awards: I brought up the awards to show his hype, and that it's clearly overstated. He was named the most outstanding player in college football, among other things. That's a massive exaggeration.

 

On scouts and draft status: You don't think the opinion of scouts is a legitimate source of information, even if it sometimes wrong and shouldn't be considered gospel?

 

On the BCSNCG: Couple things here. One, I'm using it as a bit of a litmus test, because it represents his only test against NFL competition. But the main point is that I'm giving players who have performed really well against better competition on a consistent basis the nod over Te'o, because that seems like the most reasonable approach, no?

 

On Justin Blackmon: My argument about Blackmon was that he's a very good WR, but he lacked explosive play capability and benefitted from poor tackling in the Big XII. I don't really see how that's controversial.

 

On Te'o, overall: I'm saying he's a top 15 defensive player in the country, and a top five (or three) ILB in the country. You're kind of acting like I'm saying he's a very flawed player, when, in fact, I'm saying he's an elite player ... just not quite as good as the accolades and media attention (i.e. most outstanding player in the country, best defensive player in the country, etc) would have us believe.

[Jasonbay44]

I'm a big Teo fan and I do agree he is a little overrated. For example, I believe it was Mel Kiper who said the Chiefs should take him #1 overall and said he would be better than Patrick Willis lol, which is just ridiculous. However, I also think people are hating on him a little too much after one game against a great team. I'm not talking about posters on here hating on him, but just people in general.

 

I think Teo will be a very good NFL player, not a superstar and best MLB in NFL like some people were predicting before the national championship, but a guy who has a very solid career. I would love if the Steelers scooped him as I feel like he will be left at 17 and they have glaring need for another MLB.

[Emmz]

I just feel he's the best ILB prospect, not the third best as you say. And most boards have had him top 10, and #1 for ILBs all year. He also seems ahead of the curve really, and in a system like the cover 2 where the mike almost always drops back into a zone he could be insanely good.

 

Also, your saying OLs often get blocks on LBs often is misleading, bc their first priority is always the DL. Obviously, OL have to be able to account for more than just one guy, but a great DL will do wonders for your LBs, and it just seems silly to get all bent up because of the title game. Like you say, this is NFL-caliber talent on Alabama, but when you don't have the same level talent around you, ofc you're going to struggle.

 

Dude looks like the best ILB prospect I've seen in recent drafts, and whatever team drafts him IMO will be improving their defense significantly.

 

Also, I remember exactly what you said about Blackmon, I just think it's way off. The dude draws all kinds of comparisons to Michael Crabtree, who is insanely potent when utilized properly. It seemed like you just didn't like him because he doesn't have top shelf speed.

[Emmz]

I'm a big Teo fan and I do agree he is a little overrated. For example, I believe it was Mel Kiper who said the Chiefs should take him #1 overall and said he would be better than Patrick Willis lol, which is just ridiculous. However, I also think people are hating on him a little too much after one game against a great team. I'm not talking about posters on here hating on him, but just people in general.

 

I think Teo will be a very good NFL player, not a superstar and best MLB in NFL like some people were predicting before the national championship, but a guy who has a very solid career. I would love if the Steelers scooped him as I feel like he will be left at 17 and they have glaring need for another MLB.

 

Te'o could be great in the NFL, but Willis is on a near Ray Lewis level of dominance. It's just unfair to compare anyone with Patrick Willis.

 

I think he could be one of the best, though. Really like how he plays the position.

[jacksonianmarch]

I just feel he's the best ILB prospect, not the third best as you say. And most boards have had him top 10, and #1 for ILBs all year. He also seems ahead of the curve really, and in a system like the cover 2 where the mike almost always drops back into a zone he could be insanely good.

 

Also, your saying OLs often get blocks on LBs often is misleading, bc their first priority is always the DL. Obviously, OL have to be able to account for more than just one guy, but a great DL will do wonders for your LBs, and it just seems silly to get all bent up because of the title game. Like you say, this is NFL-caliber talent on Alabama, but when you don't have the same level talent around you, ofc you're going to struggle.

 

Dude looks like the best ILB prospect I've seen in recent drafts, and whatever team drafts him IMO will be improving their defense significantly.

 

Also, I remember exactly what you said about Blackmon, I just think it's way off. The dude draws all kinds of comparisons to Michael Crabtree, who is insanely potent when utilized properly. It seemed like you just didn't like him because he doesn't have top shelf speed.

 

My hope is that his title game performance drops him to the Giants. They haven't had a full season of defensive dominance since Pierce left, and Te'o can fill that gap talent wise and leadership wise

[yankees228]

I just feel he's the best ILB prospect, not the third best as you say. And most boards have had him top 10, and #1 for ILBs all year. He also seems ahead of the curve really, and in a system like the cover 2 where the mike almost always drops back into a zone he could be insanely good.

 

Also, your saying OLs often get blocks on LBs often is misleading, bc their first priority is always the DL. Obviously, OL have to be able to account for more than just one guy, but a great DL will do wonders for your LBs, and it just seems silly to get all bent up because of the title game. Like you say, this is NFL-caliber talent on Alabama, but when you don't have the same level talent around you, ofc you're going to struggle.

 

Dude looks like the best ILB prospect I've seen in recent drafts, and whatever team drafts him IMO will be improving their defense significantly.

 

Also, I remember exactly what you said about Blackmon, I just think it's way off. The dude draws all kinds of comparisons to Michael Crabtree, who is insanely potent when utilized properly. It seemed like you just didn't like him because he doesn't have top shelf speed.

 

This has become rather circular, but I'll just finish up my piece by saying that I think Te'o is an excellent player, who just doesn't quite live up to the hype that surrounds him. This is based on way more than the title game and based more on the performance of others than Te'o, because, as mentioned multiple times earlier, this is less about Te'o's own abilities and more about the abilities of others. At this point, though, I'm willing to just agree to disagree.

 

I'm curious though, have you seen a lot of Mosley and Ogletree?