Bard to the Pen?

[redsoxbeatz]

See 2011 Red Sox.... (I know how it finished, but had that team stayed healthy it could have won a world series.)

 

To small of a sample size to draw conclusions on SP ineffectiveness. The bullpen will be fine if they can make a few moves and put Bard back there. It will make everyone in that bullpen better if there is a rock back there that can get guys out whenever. As far as defense goes, there have been lapses yes, but I have watched every inning and it hasn't seemed THAT bad. I think Iggy will eventually be here this season, and maybe even Middlebrooks too. To say that the team is screwed so early, is an over reaction to bad april baseball.

 

I like the optimism, MANNY. It's easy to get worried over the first 15 games played but the season has only just begun. The sample sizes are too small. If we have to go on a five game win streak we'll be 10-10, not bad. Last year we didn't hit .500 till 20-20. I'd like to see where the Red Sox are by mid-end of May.

 

Though it is obvious our SP need to stepup cause this the pen can't be asked to cover 3.5+ innings every single night.

 

Time for work. I'll be keeping track of the game on my iphone if I had my lunch break at 5 instead of 330 (crossing my fingers!) ill watch an hour of it on the ipad, woo.

[Dojji]

Yea exactly what we need another OF off the bench no thanks!.

 

Ciriaco is an infielder.

[Dojji]

See 2011 Red Sox.... (I know how it finished' date=' but had that team stayed healthy it could have won a world series.) [/quote']

 

LOL.

 

Our chances of winning the World Series in 11 ended when the medical staff failed to diagnose a broken back.

 

The bullpen will be fine if they can make a few moves and put Bard back there.

How the **** many moves are we talking here and what are they going to cost?

 

It will make everyone in that bullpen better if there is a rock back there that can get guys out whenever.

 

It will also help everyone in that bullpen if the top 2-3 starters can start going deep. And people are presuming too much of Bard. Daniel Bard is not Jonathan Papelbon. He would probably be an above average, but not an elite, closer. Strong emhasis on "PROBABLY."

 

People are overestimating the HECK out of what they'd expect Bard to do if shoehorned back into that role. Sure he's a power pitcher, but his command issues make the worst struggles Pap ever had with location look positively prosaic. This is NOT Mariano Rivera, and it probably never will be.

 

See the thing about the closer equation, and the difference between Bard now and Paps in 07, is that Paps is not Bard, and Bard is not Paps. Bard is a danged good setup man. Papelbon was an ABSOLUTELY AND COMPLETELY ELITE closer coming off THE best year a closer has EVER had in a big league uniform. There's a huge divergence in the difference between the relative value of a starter and a setup man, and the difference between an ELITE CLOSER and a starter. The result is different because the math that goes into the equation is different.

 

If we knew Bard was an elite closer? Yeah maybe you move him to the pen. We have no idea whatsoever whether Daniel Bard is or is not an elite closer. He has literally never been tested in the closer's role. He is more proven in the starter's role as of this moment than he is as the closer. People are whistling past the graveyard when they fail to acknowledge this!

[pedroias laser]

Ciriaco is an infielder.

 

My apoligies on that i was thinking of something else at work. I don't think Aviles is really

a bad player more solid then anything else and he is not the problem.

[Dojji]

Thing is, if you're going to call someone up, I'd call Middlebrooks. Reward for good early production as well as the fact that he'll bring a more athletic 3B play defensively. Not that Youk is terrible, but he's kind of a handsy player, and neither Youk nor Aviles has much range. Middlebrooks is a former shortstop, so he'd probably boost our defensive performance on the left side of the infield regardless of whether he hit or not. And he's probably going to hit.

[redsoxfan3]

I know a very obvious move for the Sox is that they could keep Bard in the pen permanently and promote Cook to the majors as a starter. The only problem with that is that they want to keep Bard as a starter. I think we might be better off right now if we can move Bard to the pen and have Cook as a starter and then when Dice-K returns, then we could have him start over Cook if Cook is struggling. My question is that I know Cook is known for being a contact pitcher, could he be an asset to the pen? We do not have much longer before Cook can opt out of his contract. Also, if Bard stays in the pen, then are we going to even have room for Dice-K being a starter? I am not so sure about how I feel with Cook or Dice-K being in the pen, but it is an interesting thought to keep in my mind for the future. The team has some tough decisions to make.

[Dojji]

The other problem with that, besides wanting Bard as a starter, is that Cook would have to actually pitch at some point. There'd be no way around it. You'd try, but despite your best efforts to avoid such a fate ultimately circumstances would conspire against you and you'd be pushed into a corner where you'd have no choice but to say a prayer to Jesus, brace for the inevitable, close your eyes tight, say some choice last words, and give him the ball. It would have to happen eventually and when it did, ugly things would follow.

 

We're talking about a ballpark that's among the best batting average parks iin the league,and the best doubles ballpark in the league barring none, and bringing in a guy who pitches to contact and doesn't necessarily keep the ball down. It *would* be a disaster. Not might. Not could. Not merely a cause for concern. This would happen.

[jung]

The ONLY thing that recommends Cook in my mind is that the Sox have bullpen arms that are currently abysmal, not mediocre, not bad but abysmal. I suspect they will bring Cook up as opposed to just seeing him fritter away mainly because the risk that he is worse than some of the current crop of relief guys is relatively small.

 

I think they bring him up and try him in long relief....some kind of role where he gets one turn through the lineup at most and can can come in as a change of pace. I don't even think he will survive two turns through ML lineups. To me, that is what his "success" in Pawtucket says. If he fails, then do what you want to do with him at that point. But they are fighting this time element on Cook and he has surely pitched well enough to get a shot at least in relief given the state of Red Sox relief pitching at present.

[kapsis21]

is Buccholz injurred? cuz sure as hell he looks like it. he has been tanked in all of his starts. might be an idea to ponder to send Bucchy on the DL & rehabilitate and Cook start instead of him ???

his FB is completely flat..

[kapsis21]

The ONLY thing that recommends Cook in my mind is that the Sox have bullpen arms that are currently abysmal, not mediocre, not bad but abysmal. I suspect they will bring Cook up as opposed to just seeing him fritter away mainly because the risk that he is worse than some of the current crop of relief guys is relatively small.

 

I think they bring him up and try him in long relief....some kind of role where he gets one turn through the lineup at most and can can come in as a change of pace. I don't even think he will survive two turns through ML lineups. To me, that is what his "success" in Pawtucket says. If he fails, then do what you want to do with him at that point. But they are fighting this time element on Cook and he has surely pitched well enough to get a shot at least in relief given the state of Red Sox relief pitching at present.

 

yes how can he be any worse than Justin Thomas... ??? i know he is left handed but he is not even close to a threat even if the hitter is left handed.

[Dojji]

I'd rather try Miller again than Cook. At least Miller won 6 of his 9 decisions last year.

[jung]

If Buch is confirmed injured, putting Cook in his spot is a thought but I would not take that risk unless Buch is in fact injured. Cook will not survive the AL East in general and may not able to survive anybody pitching at Fenway.

 

One turn through lineups in a relief role is all I can convince myself he is capable of doing without getting lit up like a Christmas tree.

[redsoxfan3]

yes how can he be any worse than Justin Thomas... ??? i know he is left handed but he is not even close to a threat even if the hitter is left handed.

 

I don't understand why Justin Thomas is in the majors, other than the fact that he is left handed. Send him back to the minors. Try giving Wilson and Cook and opportunity as relievers, it wouldn't hurt anything. Hill, Dice-K, and even Bailey will all be back at some point.

[Dojji]

Is Hill healthy? He was a decent lefty before he got hurt last year

[jung]

Is Miller sound at this point. I thought he had some time to go before he is sound again...No?????

[Dojji]

Is Miller sound at this point. I thought he had some time to go before he is sound again...No?????

 

No idea. I just *really* don't want Cook.

[redsoxfan3]

No idea. I just *really* don't want Cook.

 

Aaron Cook in four starts in AAA is 3-0, with a 1.33 ERA, 1.11 WHIP, and 2 complete games. Aaron Cook in four games in Spring Training was 1-0, with a 1.88 ERA and 0.77 WHIP. I know he has not faced the best competition yet this year, but those numbers are not bad at all and if anyone deserves a shot, it is Cook. Why not give him a chance? Even if it is in the pen in long relief? Some of the guys in the pen have been horrendous. Cook might surprise some people.

[jung]

No idea. I just *really* don't want Cook.

 

I don't know for sure either but I think he has some time to go yet.

 

Some of these relief guys are so piss poor given that Cook has had some "success" I don't think they have a choice but to at least try Cook in that role and then bounce him if it does not work out. He might be more of a change of pace from whoever starts the game than Padilla is/was/whatever. Almost wonder if that is one real issue with Padilla. His stuff seems to desert him at times, in fact much more than makes me comfortable yet he throws something like a power pitching starter. When he comes in and his stuff is nothing he is just meat...it appears anyway. He does not provide enough of a change of pace from the starter. Change of pace can be a good way to get through the lineup one time. Padilla does not have anything to use to beat ML hitters when his stuff is just not there and he is not a change of pace.

[Dojji]

RSF3: You seem to be under the misapprehension that I care what a player does in the minors and in Spring Training.

 

Go to the Royals spring stats and look up Luis Mendoza. Really similar pitcher to Cook. Great spring. Great year last year in the minors. Currently getting utterly dismantled in a park much more forgiving than ours.

[redsoxfan3]

Is Hill healthy? He was a decent lefty before he got hurt last year

 

Hill is the middle of rehab. Hill is pitching for Pawtucket. I think he will be ready to pitch by June. Hopefully when he returns, that means no more Justin Thomas.

 

Is Miller sound at this point. I thought he had some time to go before he is sound again...No?????

 

Miller has been pitching for Pawtucket and has been struggling. I hope he doesn't return to the majors for a while. We already have enough inconsistencies in the bullpen.

[a700hitter]

Hill is the middle of rehab. Hill is pitching for Pawtucket. I think he will be ready to pitch by June. Hopefully when he returns, that means no more Justin Thomas.

 

 

 

Miller has been pitching for Pawtucket and has been struggling. I hope he doesn't return to the majors for a while. We already have enough inconsistencies in the bullpen.

Thomas for another month or 2 would not be a good thing. Miller on the MLB roster is not a good idea. He is last year's failed experiment. We have enough other experiments in the works this year. There's no room for last year's failure.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Hill is the middle of rehab. Hill is pitching for Pawtucket. I think he will be ready to pitch by June. Hopefully when he returns' date=' that means no more Justin Thomas.[/quote']

 

June?? You think Rich Hill is going to have a full month and a half of rehab in Pawtucket??

 

Hill will almost certainly be up to Boston by early to mid May.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Alex Wilson just came in the game for Pawtucket out of the bullpen. I've heard from Chris Mellen and Mike Andrews (SoxProspects.com) on twitter that Wilson can be a 7th/8th inning guy for the Red Sox.

[a700hitter]

Alex Wilson just came in the game for Pawtucket out of the bullpen. I've heard from Chris Mellen and Mike Andrews (SoxProspects.com) on twitter that Wilson can be a 7th/8th inning guy for the Red Sox.

He was a trainwreck in ST. They got him out of there very early so as not to wreck his psyche.

[redsoxrules]

RSF3: You seem to be under the misapprehension that I care what a player does in the minors and in Spring Training.

 

Go to the Royals spring stats and look up Luis Mendoza. Really similar pitcher to Cook. Great spring. Great year last year in the minors. Currently getting utterly dismantled in a park much more forgiving than ours.

 

Funny how you say that as you usually follow the minors a lot look at the numbers

[Dojji]

Yeah, but you can't use the numbers as more than rough guidelines. Especially batting average and ERA are difficult numbers to give full credibility to.

 

What you look at with minor league numbers are tendencies which expose tools. Does this guy walk a lot. Does he strike out a lot or make a lot of contact. Does he have good power or no power. Does he exhibit useful speed.

 

What I see when I look at Cook is exactly what I describe. This is a pitcher who can't put hitters away well enough for me to think he's going to succeed at the big league level. IIRC he's walked more than he's struck out, and that's not because he's walking the ballpark. He just has no putaway power, which reflects a trend he's exhibited throughout his career.

[Station 13]

He was a trainwreck in ST. They got him out of there very early so as not to wreck his psyche.

 

He never pitch as a reliever. Work in progress. baseball america like his fastball and slider as the best in the system. Could be effective.

[kapsis21]

Matt Barnes for closer

[kapsis21]

June?? You think Rich Hill is going to have a full month and a half of rehab in Pawtucket??

 

Hill will almost certainly be up to Boston by early to mid May.

 

You are right the max time for rehab in minors is 30 days for experienced pitcher. Hill should be back in may

[crowdseats]

I personally think that the sooner Daniel Bard is put into a closer role, the sooner he can begin his journey into becoming an above average closer.

 

It's all about him avoiding any mental confusion as to whether or not he is a starter or a closer IMO.

 

Why move a potentially great starter to the pen to be an above average closer. Doesn't make sense! Try him out as the rotation is full now, but keep him training as a SP!