Rank the Red Sox 1-25

[yeszir]

The article/slideshow from the Globe is pretty interesting. Certainly a good segway to debate.

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/gallery/2011/0214_rankingthe2011redsox/

 

Their rankings are as follows:

 

1 John Lester

2 Kevin Youkilis

3 Adrian Gonzalez

4 Dustin Pedroia

5 Carl Crawford

6 Clay Buchholz

7 Josh Beckett

8 David Ortiz

9 Jacoby Ellsbury

10 John Lackey

11 Daniel Bard

12 Jonathan Papelbon

13 Jarrod Saltalamacchia

14 Jed Lowrie

15 J.D. Drew

16 Daisuke Matsuzaka

17 Bobby Jenks

18 Dan Wheeler

19 Mike Cameron

20 Marco Scutaro

21 Jason Varitek

22 Tim Wakefield

23 Felix Doubront

24 Darnell McDonald

25 Scott Atchison

[J-Beck]

For some reason I'm still skeptical of Gonzalez. I'm not sure I have enough confidence in him to put him in my top 7 or 8.

[BSN07]

1 John Lester

2 Adrian Gonzalez

3 Kevin Youkilis

4 Dustin Pedroia

5 Clay Buchholz

6 Carl Crawford

7 Josh Beckett

8 David Ortiz

9 Jacoby Ellsbury

10 Daniel Bard

11 Jonathan Papelbon

12 John Lackey

13 Jed Lowrie

14 J.D. Drew

15 Daisuke Matsuzaka

16 Bobby Jenks

17 Jarrod Saltalamacchia

18 Mike Cameron

19 Marco Scutaro

20 Dan Wheeler

21 Jason Varitek

22 Tim Wakefield

23 Felix Doubront

24 Darnell McDonald

25 Scott Atchison

[BSN07]

For some reason I'm still skeptical of Gonzalez. I'm not sure I have enough confidence in him to put him in my top 7 or 8.

 

You're taking the piss out of us right?

[italstallianion]

It depends on what we're ranking them on. For example, rankings on talent will be different from rankings on predictions of 2011 production, which will be different from ranking their value to the team etc.

[BSN07]

It depends on what we're ranking them on. For example' date=' rankings on talent will be different from rankings on predictions of 2011 production, which will be different from ranking their value to the team etc.[/quote']

 

Like it says in the article, on how important they are to the Red Sox winning this year. How is Agon not 1 of the 8 most important to the teams success this year? That's crazy..

[italstallianion]

I'm actually more surprised that Lester is as high as he is than any confusion with Gonzalez.

[BSN07]

I'm actually more surprised that Lester is as high as he is than any confusion with Gonzalez.

 

Lester = Ace of the Pitching staff

 

Agon = Anchor of the offense

 

Pretty simple.

 

edit: Think of it like this. How important where CC and Tex in 09 for the Yankees?

[italstallianion]

Right, I'm not arguing that, but it doesn't mean that because Lester's the ace, that he's the most valuable player on the team, or the most important player for the 2011 season.

[BSN07]

Right' date=' I'm not arguing that, but it doesn't mean that because Lester's the ace, that he's the most valuable player on the team, or the most important player for the 2011 season.[/quote']

 

I get that, because he only plays 1/5 days. But The Yankees proved for years you can have the best lineup on the planet. But if you don't have and Ace come playoff time you'll be standing dick in hand more often then not. Having a bonifide stud SP is key to any Championship run. That's why he's high on the list.

[italstallianion]

Maybe some of this will get settled when I do my rankings. I'd clearly have Lester as the top ranked pitcher, but I'm not sure where I'd put him with respect to the offensive players.

[Dojji]

1 Lester

2 Buchholz

3 Youkilis*

4 Gonzalez

5 Crawford

6 Daisuke

7 Lackey

8 Pedroia

9 Bard

10 Papi

11 Ellsbury

12 Beckett

13 Papelbon

14 Drew

15 Lowrie/Scutaro

16 Scutaro/Lowrie

17 Jenks

18 Cameron

19 Okajima

20 Wheeler

21 Doubront

22Atchison **

23 McDonald**

24 Varitek**

25 Saltalamacchia**

 

*Youkilis ahead of Gonzo mostly because he's also an elite hitter and will be playing third base

** I am not convinced by any means that these players have any great chance of finishing the season for Boston and I suspect they will be replaced by trade or callup this season..

[Dipre]

My ranking (I will assume it's about both regular season and playoffs, as in the entire baseball season):

 

25 Atchison

24 McDonald

23 Wakefield

22 Doubront

21 Varitek

20 Wheeler

19 Scutaro

18 Lowrie

17 Cameron

16 Matsuzaka

15 Salty

14 Drew

13 Jenks

12 Lackey

11 Ortiz

 

Top 10 and their explanations:

 

 

10 Beckett: You need three reliable starters for the playoffs, and Beckett would be the #3. If he doesn't pull his s*** together, it could be a long season with a really short playoff for the Red Sox.

 

9 Crawford: He's one of the "slump-breakers" because speed doesn't slump. Along with his outstanding defense, he'd be heavily relied upon in both regular season and playoffs.

 

8 Ellsbury: Like Crawford, he'd make things happen come playoff time. No spark, no wins.

He also patrols an up-the-middle position, so defense is also essential to team success.

 

7 Bucholz: Same reason as Beckett, come playoff time, no dependable pitching, no playoff advancement. But he's even more important due to his status as #2.

 

6 Bard: In today's game, a lot of ballgames are won or lost in the 8th and 9th innings, so a 1-2 back-end of the bullpen combo is absolutely essential, specially in the playoffs.

 

5 Papelbon: The other half of the equation. If Papelbon shits the bed and isn't replaced with a viable option, a long playoff run is unlikely.

 

4 Youkilis: Second-best hitter on the team, and an irreplaceable cog in the offense.

 

3 Gonzales: You need punch in the lineup, and this guy will be the main source of punch. Without him, the offense would look a lot different, and not in a good way.

 

2 Pedroia: Surprised eh? Pedroia is the best overall hitter on this team, he can hit for average, power, get on base and has an above-average speed game, he's arguably the most important piece of this lineup, and he plays an up-the-middle position at top-5 level. You can replace a two or three tool guy with relative ease, but a 5-tooler that is above average in every facet is next to impossible.

 

1 Lester: Come crunch time, no stopper, no ring. It's as simple as that.

[Dojji]

Pedroia is the best overall hitter on this team,

 

Can't agree with that. Youkilis has paced him as a hitter for average over the last couple years and Youk has mower power. Pedroia's advantage is that he hits very well in an up the middle position, and he plays a position in second base where there aren't a lot of really great hitters, so I'm not saying he's bad, but I definitely rate Youkilis well ahead of Pedroia as an overall hitter, even if you count baserunning into the equation.

[Dipre]

Not if you factor in baserunning, and the ability to make contact and handle the bat. His set of tools is much more complete.

 

Pedroia has also elevated his game with runners on base every year since reaching the league. He's the complete package,

[italstallianion]

For the record, I entertained the idea of putting either Pedroia or Youk first. I think very highly of them both. If Youkilis was our first baseman I might put Pedroia ahead, but with Youkilis at third I might go with him. Either way, it looks like I'll be the first person to not put Lester in the #1 spot.

[italstallianion]

I was thinking that when this is done, that we should do a Talksox power rankings, basically taking these "ballots" and compiling them (which I don't mind doing) to see what's the average rankings of the group. It depends on how many people make lists though. I'll have mine in the near future.

[SoxFanForsyth]

@Dipre

 

I think Chad Finn's biggest oversight was not having Bard in the top 6 or 7. How many times did he come in last year with RISP in a tight game and get us out unscathed and maintaining the lead? He was absolutely crucial.

 

My top 10 are as follows:

 

1a. Gonzo

1b. Lester

3. Youkilis

4. Pedroia

5. Crawford

6. Bard

7. Buchholz

8. Ellsbury

9. Beckett

10. Papelbon

 

I think for the Sox to win the WS next year, those players will be the most crucial to our success.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Can't agree with that. Youkilis has paced him as a hitter for average over the last couple years and Youk has mower power. Pedroia's advantage is that he hits very well in an up the middle position' date=' and he plays a position in second base where there aren't a lot of really great hitters, so I'm not saying he's bad, but I definitely rate Youkilis well ahead of Pedroia as an overall hitter, even if you count baserunning into the equation.[/quote']

 

I can see the argument both ways, but Pedey walks more than he K's, and that's an unbelievable quality for a hitter to have, one that very few hitters have these days.

[italstallianion]

Chipper Jones and Todd Helton are the only 2 that come to my mind. I'm sure if I research it I can find a few more.

[italstallianion]

I've been thinking about this for a while, and here are my rankings.

 

1. Kevin Youkilis

2. Dustin Pedroia

3. Adrian Gonzalez

4. Jon Lester

5. Clay Buchholz

6. Carl Crawford

7. David Ortiz

8. Josh Beckett

9. Dan Bard

10. Jacoby Ellsbury

11. John Lackey

12. JD Drew

13. Jonathan Papelbon

14. Bobby Jenks

15. Jed Lowrie

16. Dan Wheeler

17. Daisuke Matsuzaka

18. Marco Scutaro

19. Jarrod Saltalamacchia

20. Mike Cameron

21. Felix Doubront

22. Darnell McDonald

23. Jason Varitek

24. Tim Wakefield

25. Scott Atchison

[Dojji]

I can see the argument both ways' date=' but Pedey walks more than he K's, and that's an unbelievable quality for a hitter to have, one that very few hitters have these days.[/quote']

 

Sure. Not saying Pedroia is a bad hitter. In fact I think we all know how good he is. I just think Youks is more productive once you leave out positional scarcity as an argument.

 

I'm glad we have both of them anyway.

[Dipre]

Chipper Jones and Todd Helton are the only 2 that come to my mind. I'm sure if I research it I can find a few more.

 

Albert Pujols, Joe Mauer, Jeff Keppinger, Jason Kendall, Augie Ojeda, Carlos Ruiz, Juan Pierre.

[italstallianion]

I'd imagine that Pujols and Mauer are more prone to intentional walks than the others. Keppinger might have been the only other one that I might have eventually thought of, and even then, that's only because of playing fantasy baseball.

 

In addition, Juan Pierre has 1 more walk than strikeout, and has had more K's than BB's 5 of the past 6 years (equal numbers in 2009). Ojeda is also only +4 and Ruiz is only +5.

 

I'm not attacking your research or anything Dipre, I'm just showing how uncommon this stat is.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Well regardless I think it speaks wonders about pedey in that a guy like Pujols had 38 IBB last year. If he had 10 or less he would have had more k's that bb's. Not taking anything away from Pujols, just giving more credit to pedroia since he hardly gets intentionally walked

[SoxFanForsyth]

To put it into reference, pedey has 6 career IBB with 215 walks and 186 strikeouts. He may be the best player in the MLB in terms of plate discipline.

[Spudboy]

Not if you factor in baserunning, and the ability to make contact and handle the bat. His set of tools is much more complete.

 

Pedroia has also elevated his game with runners on base every year since reaching the league. He's the complete package,

 

Hmmm.....

 

If you say so.

 

He's a minuter Vlad. Any ball within a foot of the plate may drop for one or more bases.

 

But don't discount Youk.

 

He IS the anchor of the batting order.

[Youk Of The Nation]

1.Lester

2. Pedroia

3. Youk

4. A-Gon

5. Buchholz

6. Crawford

7. Papelbon

8. Beckett

9. Ellsbury

10. Bard

 

I can't really rank the other 15.

[italstallianion]

I think it's kind of ironic that everyone else put Lester first.

[Youk Of The Nation]

Seriously, you guys are just doing this to piss me off now. :banned: