All your "eggs in one basket" ...

[lasitter]

One thing I have liked about the Sox is that they have managed to develop a lot of talent within the organization. It's been a winning strategy for them, and I wish they could do more with it.

 

I'm just not a fan of mega-deals.

 

When you put out over a hundred million for Dice-K, you have to be right about EVERYTHING, and the real cost is usually not what you forked over for that player, but what you might have gotten instead. Economists refer to this as the "opportunity cost".

 

If you're the Yankees, have a mountain of money, laugh at the concept of a salary cap, and couldn't recognize emerging talent if it bit you in the azz, then you just buy every free agent in sight. You're bound to be right sometime.

 

So I wish we could have taken the money we gave Dice-K and Beckett and played "small ball" in the player selection / grooming process.

 

Investing money in a lot of down-list drift picks gives you lots of options.

 

With a good scouting combined with a great coaching / talent development you can get players performing to their potential such that they look desirable at some level within the organization, even if they have flaws that don't make them big league material.

 

Getting players that have a long time to go in their careers gives you plenty of time to work on them and generate value for your investment. You can then play them or trade them for more immediate impact players if needed.

 

The important point here is that being wrong with these players is CHEAP. If you only turn up one or two winners out of ten, you cut the bums and let the winners run. You're still miles ahead of the game compared to when a high value target flops.

[jacksonianmarch]

Lassiter, if the yankees dont know emerging talent if it bit them in the azz, then how did they win a championship with a team that had the most home grown players on it in the league?

[lasitter]

Lassiter

Please note: There's no "ass" in my name. (I like to think my ancestors chose that spelling for a reason ...)

 

What do they pay for their minor league talent, compared to some?

 

A better point, I'll agree, would be that their large investments often don't pan out, and that they have a largess in the money department shared by no other team.

[jacksonianmarch]

Oh absolutely. No Yankee fan would doubt that the money is an advantage. Although lately, there has been somewhat of a shift in philosophy in NY. You are seeing players come up and stick like Gardner, Hughes, Joba, and Cano with other guys filling in off the bench like Cervelli, Russo and Pena as well as in the pen like Aceves, Robertson and others. Thing is, this massive payroll is necessitated by the Yankees dearth of drafting from the late 90s through 2003. They started drafting high price tag guys again in 2004 (Hughes) and have done pretty well ever since. Once the home grown talent starts sprining up all over the place, you'll see the price tag come down. Either that, or they'll focus their price tags on only the elite players knowing that the other holes can be filled admirably from within. Meaning they may not drop their salary, but they'll get better bang for their buck

[yeszir]

Not to mention that it just makes it that much more satisfying when your home grown players turn into superstars.

[Dojji]

There's a place for acquiring a few veterans and key players to stabilize a roster, but lasitter's right that there's a lot of ways it can go wrong.

 

Look what happened to the Kansas City Royals. They signed Guillen and Meche, and for a couple years it almost worked -- when Guillen hit and Meche was effective, there were signs that the Royals were beginning to move in the right direction. But then Guillen just plain fell apart down the stretch of the first year and hasn't even been somewhat effective since then, and their manager pulled a total duncecap move and left their $11M/year ace on the mound for 130 pitches and he hasn't been right since.

 

Now both of those two are major anchors on the roster stopping them from making good positive moves and performance wise they're at nearly their maximum downside. I'd say that's more of a disaster for a franchise than anything that's happened to us in living memory.

 

It's worth pointing out though that even with the Guillen and Meche signings the Royals have been among the biggest draft spenders in the league -- and that their minor league ratings are starting to reflect that. Even with two major, hugely expensive blights on their big league roster I think KC is still lurching drunkenly in the general direction of success.

 

So I see where Lasitter's coming from, but I really think that he's kind of overblowing the impact of the Daisuke signing. One thing the Sox have not had trouble doing is paying over slot for worthy talent in the draft. Besides which, other than 2009 where he was suffering from a well-documented shoulder injury, Daisuke has been, if not exactly an ace, at least someone you can enfold under the Wakefield Clause -- looks very ugly in many given outings, but if you look back at the overall season you can see a lot to be satisfied with.

[lasitter]

I'm just saying that when you pay that much for someone, you have to be right about a lot of things.

 

Staying healthy and fit is one thing, but when you get the attitude that he unleashed last season, you can end up seeing more red than is on the uniform.

 

At some price point, the Dice-K deal could look like a good thing. It's just that two of his three years hear have certainly not lived up to the original hype.

 

He has lots of pitches, but unless he gets his placement, nothing he's got is that overpowering.

 

And his fastball is only fast in comparison to his other pitches. I don't think you're really got cheese unless you START at 95mph.

[Dojji]

I guess I don't feel that way because I always take hype with an oceanful of salt and set my expectations accordingly.

[Palodios]

 

At some price point, the Dice-K deal could look like a good thing. It's just that two of his three years hear have certainly not lived up to the original hype.

.

 

Dice-k gets a lot of crap, and most of that is because of the ******** he pulls month after month and his complete inability to adjust to the mlb. But he's still not a complete bust, and to say he's had two bad years is stretching the truth.

 

His first year here, he was in an adjustment period, but he still pitched fairly well, and went 2-1 in the playoffs before the team's world series title. 200 innings, 200 strikeouts, 4.40 ERA, 15 wins. His ERA was 3.84 before the All-star break, and 5.19 after which showed that he probably got worn out by pitching every 5 days instead of 6 like in Japan. That was no disaster. And his second year, he came in 4th place for Cy Young.

 

The point is that yes, Dice-k isn't the best 100 million dollar investment this team has made, but he's not a sunk cost. He has 42 wins, and well, the only Red Sox player with more than that since 2007 is Beckett.

[Dipre]

However, Palodios, wins are not an accurate measure of a pitcher's ability, and his 2008 win tally is nothing more than a testament on that.

 

I agree with you that he's not a sunk cost, and he has a chance to prove he can be an asset to the Sox if he can continue his recent surge.

[jacksonianmarch]

Not to mention that it just makes it that much more satisfying when your home grown players turn into superstars.

 

Exactly. Watching Cano jump into batting title and MVP races is pretty nice to see, especially after watching his progression from his rookie yr. Same with Hughes and his emergence this yr. It's nice to see, especially after watching the struggles that young kids go through on their way there

[Palodios]

Exactly. Watching Cano jump into batting title and MVP races is pretty nice to see' date=' especially after watching his progression from his rookie yr. Same with Hughes and his emergence this yr. It's nice to see, especially after watching the struggles that young kids go through on their way there[/quote']

 

There are a lot of similarities between guys like Dice-k/Ichiro and guys like Cano. Sure, there is less development of skill and techniques, but they go from an inferior league to the majors, and suddenly are in far better competition with arguably more pressure. 90% of the time, we'll only associate these guys with their mlb team. To the common person, the Yomiuri Giants and the Pawtucket Paw Sox really aren't that relevant.

 

Here's a question that may put this in perspective. Who is going to remember that Varitek was drafted and developed by the Mariners, but played his whole mlb career with the Red Sox?

[lasitter]

The point is that yes' date=' Dice-k isn't the best 100 million dollar investment this team has made, but he's not a sunk cost. He has 42 wins, and well, the only Red Sox player with more than that since 2007 is Beckett.[/quote']Even in his first year, he filled a slot in the rotation for a lot of games and that's a good thing, but for the money we paid, we should be looking at seasons a lot more like 18-3 than not.

 

Another way to look at it is cost-per-win in terms of salary. I'm betting Dice-K doesn't have the cheapest wins in the rotation by a stretch.

[Dojji]

I think that's a little unreasonable, to be honest. Holding Daisuke to that kind of standard isn't rational IMHO because he didn't even do that in NPB for one, and for another, having Daisuke has never really interfered with our ability to staff the rest of the rotation or the rest of the team.

 

For what you're saying to be true, that you'd have to hold Daisuke to that kind of standard, he would have to be our Mauer -- our The Guy, the one you paid $20M/year for and now he has to be the best in the league or you're not going anywhere. Daisuke just isn't that, never was that, and never was intended to be that.

 

He is, on the other hand, an asset to the team and there's more good than bad to what he's provided us. But don't even try and pretend Daisuke is or was ever intended to be our franchise ace, which is basically what you're describing.

 

BTW -- stick around, Lasitter. You've got some critical thinking and logical skills that are a cut above most of the recent newbs and you express your points well even though I disagree with them.

[lasitter]

BTW -- stick around' date=' Lasitter. You've got some critical thinking and logical skills that are a cut above most of the recent newbs and you express your points well even though I disagree with them.[/quote']I appreciate the encouragement, but be aware that what I know about baseball is DICK.

 

I couldn't even score a game until I was a sportswriter in college and made pocket money covering American Legion ball.

 

Everything in life is generally the way it is because of money, and that includes baseball. I've got some "what if" ideas that I'm going to lay out in the general forum about the advancement of the game.

 

I know they'll never be enacted because they don't put money in the pockets of people that matter, but I like thinking about this stuff anyway.