Holliday wants to be a Yankee?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

An ocean of depth in the minor leagues? Really? The sox have a lot of talent at the lower levels. But they havent made their way to being "depth" yet. The sox system has thinned out thanks to the promotions of Lester' date=' Buchholz, Pedroia, Papelbon, Bard, Ellsbury, etc.[/quote']

 

Bard still being a potential trade chip, for the record.

 

I would actually consider the sox minor leagues to be a minus in comparison with NY for the next 2-3 seasons, until the 08 and 09 high school kids make their slow way up the depth charts. You need to look at the very stark reality that the sox are going to have to win with what they have at the MLB level for a little while. They've tapped that minor league resource dry.

 

Table.

[yankees228]

Since this management took over, they've been nothing but consistently successful. By this measurement, some random 2006/2007 free agent would value and prefer the Braves over the Cardinals, since the Braves had a longer, more consistent streak of division titles and fairly minor success (especially recently), while the Cardinals were the ones with the recent bigger success (2 world series tripsk, one being a victory, 100 win season, etc.).

 

Money is the dictator.

 

That analogy doesn't apply. Towards the middle part of the decade the Braves were showing a lot of signs of slowing down, and by 2006, it had finally happened. On the other hand, there is no real reason to think that the Yankees' aren't going to remain extremely competitive in the future.

 

Now, if the player values winning, I'm not saying they wouldn't choose the Red Sox over the Yankees, for example. What I am saying is if winning is a priority, the Yankees are going to be one of the teams that the player is going to look at.

 

I'm not going to give you that crap about coming to the Yankees because of the history and tradition. Same thing with the fans. We both know that is garbage, and if it does matter to a particular player, it is likely a small factor.

 

I'm also not going to tell you that money isn't the most important factor. For the majority of players, it absolutely is. However, I do think that you're minimizing the importance of winning. Money matters to everyone, and winning doesn't, but I'm of the opinion that winning is important to a significant portion of the players. Think of about this: in the mind's of some people, Alex Rodriguez exemplifies the greedy ballplayer. But, to anyone that has any knowledge of the situation, we both know that winning is right up there for A-Rod. He has proven this through his actions.

 

Here's my other problem with your argument, J_E. You're speaking about the motives of these players as if you know for certain. At the end of the day, it's total conjecture on your part, and, by your posts, you don't seem to recognize this.

[jacksonianmarch]

Bard still being a potential trade chip, for the record.

 

 

 

Table.

 

http://soxprospects.com/index.html

 

Look at how many players in the top 40 are below the level of AA. And of those that are, look at how their seasons turned out and where they are going to end up. I can list them for you actually...

 

Reddick- looks like slower Ellsbury clone- will end up in AAA

Kalish- did well enough to stick at AA, but will likely repeat there at AA

Anderson- sucked in AA and will repeat the level

Tazawa- did well in AA, sucked in the bigs, will likely start in AAA

Bowden- did well in AAA, sucked in the bigs, will likely start in AAA

Exposito- performed well after his promotion, will likely start in AA

Doubront- was serviceable in AA, will likely start in AAA

Richardson- was converted to relief, pitched well in AA and AAA and will likely end up in AAA

Wagner- sucked in AAA on promotion, will likely start there, but he isnt much of a prospect

Jimenez- played serviceably in AA, but was old for the league and was repeating it. Likely to start in AAA

Place- played average in AA, likely to repeat the level

Mills- not sure why he is a prospect, he throws pus and isnt very good, but he pitched average in AAA on promotion

 

Thats 12 guys on the top 40 list that are within a stone's throw of the big leagues. Of them, 5 actually look like potential impactful big league players (Kalish, Reddick, Tazawa, Bowden, Anderson). Of those 5, 3 are likely to see the bigs at some point in 2010, with none of them locking down a key spot. This is why I say that the sox MiLB depth is thin. None of these guys are standing out as lights out prospects like Buchholz, Lester, Pedroia, etc. Their best looking prospect sits in High A (Casey Kelly).

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

That analogy doesn't apply. Towards the middle part of the decade the Braves were showing a lot of signs of slowing down' date=' and by 2006, it had finally happened. On the other hand, there is no real reason to think that the Yankees' aren't going to remain extremely competitive in the future.[/quote']

 

Valid point.

 

The analogy is muddled because the Braves don't have bottomless pockets to feast on random free agents in hopes of fending off their demise.

 

Now, if the player values winning, I'm not saying they wouldn't choose the Red Sox over the Yankees, for example. What I am saying is if winning is a priority, the Yankees are going to be one of the teams that the player is going to look at.

 

Well, obviously.

 

Problem is, the only players who value winning over money are old players in their twilight who just want to latch on to a contender before they're finished and won't provide anything terribly useful. Players like Holliday, in their prime, forget about it. Of course that doesn't mean the Yankees are out of the picture, not by a long shot. But winning won't be the selling point, it might be a small bonus.

 

I'm also not going to tell you that money isn't the most important factor. For the majority of players, it absolutely is. However, I do think that you're minimizing the importance of winning. Money matters to everyone, and winning doesn't, but I'm of the opinion that winning is important to a significant portion of the players. Think of about this: in the mind's of some people, Alex Rodriguez exemplifies the greedy ballplayer. But, to anyone that has any knowledge of the situation, we both know that winning is right up there for A-Rod. He has proven this through his actions.

 

What actions? Taking $30 million per year (something no one else really felt like paying) for the next decade means he's a true gentleman who only wants to win? He went to the Rangers a few years back because Tom Hicks had a total brainfart and offered him a then-obscene contract (that merely looks like a small stretch today). They weren't winning anything and didn't win anything, then A-Rod opted out and jumped to New York because he saw the opportunity to make even more money.

 

There is no 'greedy ballplayer'. This is their job, they have every right to seek top dollar for what they do, especially since this phase of their life is over when they're 40, probably sooner. I too used to be one of the fans that thought every free agent who didn't come to my team was a greedy poophead, but then I turned 16 and grew out of that thought (not at all implicating you here, for the record).

 

Here's my other problem with your argument, J_E. You're speaking about the motives of these players as if you know for certain. At the end of the day, it's total conjecture on your part, and, by your posts, you don't seem to recognize this.

 

Its conjecture that these players auction off their talents to the highest bidder? Money is the common denominator. 99% of the players who have anything meaningful to offer you only go for top dollar.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

http://soxprospects.com/index.html

 

Look at how many players in the top 40 are below the level of AA. And of those that are, look at how their seasons turned out and where they are going to end up. I can list them for you actually...

 

Reddick- looks like slower Ellsbury clone- will end up in AAA

Kalish- did well enough to stick at AA, but will likely repeat there at AA

Anderson- sucked in AA and will repeat the level

Tazawa- did well in AA, sucked in the bigs, will likely start in AAA

Bowden- did well in AAA, sucked in the bigs, will likely start in AAA

Exposito- performed well after his promotion, will likely start in AA

Doubront- was serviceable in AA, will likely start in AAA

Richardson- was converted to relief, pitched well in AA and AAA and will likely end up in AAA

Wagner- sucked in AAA on promotion, will likely start there, but he isnt much of a prospect

Jimenez- played serviceably in AA, but was old for the league and was repeating it. Likely to start in AAA

Place- played average in AA, likely to repeat the level

Mills- not sure why he is a prospect, he throws pus and isnt very good, but he pitched average in AAA on promotion

 

Thats 12 guys on the top 40 list that are within a stone's throw of the big leagues. Of them, 5 actually look like potential impactful big league players (Kalish, Reddick, Tazawa, Bowden, Anderson). Of those 5, 3 are likely to see the bigs at some point in 2010, with none of them locking down a key spot. This is why I say that the sox MiLB depth is thin. None of these guys are standing out as lights out prospects like Buchholz, Lester, Pedroia, etc. Their best looking prospect sits in High A (Casey Kelly).

 

So you're saying our system is thin based on your trademarked jacko analysis of who will be good and who won't be, which of course is heavily influenced by what organization the players are in.

 

I repeat, table please.

[yankees228]

It's conjecture that winning isn't a significant factor.

 

As for A-Rod, you are a Red Sox fan, correct?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

It's conjecture that winning isn't a significant factor.

 

Is it enough to topple top dollar?

 

As for A-Rod, you are a Red Sox fan, correct?

 

Yes?

[yankees228]

I admitted that to most players top dollar is the most important factor. All I said was that I think you're minimizing the importance of winning. Winning, to most players, is very important in my opinion.

 

The funny thing about A-Rod is you would have enough evidence to make the case that winning is actually more important to him than top dollar. He does, if you remember, have a very interesting connection with the Boston Red Sox.

[jacksonianmarch]

So you're saying our system is thin based on your trademarked jacko analysis of who will be good and who won't be, which of course is heavily influenced by what organization the players are in.

 

I repeat, table please.

 

Once again, very naive. I am saying that the sox dont have a top prospect in their upper levels.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

I admitted that to most players top dollar is the most important factor. All I said was that I think you're minimizing the importance of winning. Winning' date=' to most players, is very important in my opinion.[/quote']

 

Disagree, then.

 

The funny thing about A-Rod is you would have enough evidence to make the case that winning is actually more important to him than top dollar. He does, if you remember, have a very interesting connection with the Boston Red Sox.

 

Yes, he did favor winning in that particular instance. Why wasn't that the case before or since?

 

Keep in mind, I'm not saying insisting on top dollar is a bad or malicious thing.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Once again' date=' very naive. I am saying that the sox dont have a top prospect in their upper levels.[/quote']

 

So you're saying our system is thin based on your trademarked jacko analysis of who will be good and who won't be, which of course is heavily influenced by what organization the players are in.

 

I repeat, table please.

[jacksonianmarch]

okay, refute my point instead of continuing to be an idiot

[yankees228]

How do you know he hasn't favored winning since? He signed the largest contract in professional sports history with a team that has an excellent chance to win. Based on his prior actions, I'm wiling to bet that he would not have accepted that offer from a non-contending team (purely hypothetical, because a non-contending team probably couldn't afford that salary).

 

As for A-Rod not favoring winning before that instance, once again, how do you know that? The Texas Rangers were bad in 2000, but prior to that, they had made the playoffs in three out of four years. They were wiling to spend a lot of money, and it's very possible that A-Rod thought that had a legitimate shot to contend.

 

As for disagreeing with me on the importance of winning, fair enough. Just think about this for a minute. We're actually debating the mindsets of other people. Think about how ridiculous that is. At least I'm acknowledging that it's simply my opinion, and nothing more. You're talking about it as if it's a certainty.

[jacksonianmarch]

ARod was willing to take a 16 million dollar pay cut to play for a contender.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

okay' date=' refute my point instead of continuing to be an idiot[/quote']

I don't need to. This is more of your patented Red Sox 'analysis' while wearing your navy-colored sunglasses and Jeter replica jersey.

[Gom]

J_E....you are being owned by Jacko (and 228). Badly.

[jacksonianmarch]

I don't need to. This is more of your patented Red Sox 'analysis' while wearing your navy-colored sunglasses and Jeter replica jersey.

 

Actually it isnt. Amalie Benjamin agrees with me....

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2009/10/15/sox_farm_system_not_at_level_best/

[bsox0407]

Actually it isnt. Amalie Benjamin agrees with me....

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2009/10/15/sox_farm_system_not_at_level_best/

 

it may not be as good as when pedroia ells, paps, bard and all them were down there but they are still damn good. j_e is right the red sox have a great minor league system. Reddick did well in the majors and anderson had one bad year doesn't mean that he done for his career.

[jacksonianmarch]

Reddick his .169 and had an OPS of .549. He was terrible, granted it was a SSS

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

How do you know he hasn't favored winning since? He signed the largest contract in professional sports history with a team that has an excellent chance to win. Based on his prior actions' date=' I'm wiling to bet that he would not have accepted that offer from a non-contending team [b'](purely hypothetical, because a non-contending team probably couldn't afford that salary)[/b].

 

Exactly, so its moot.

 

As for A-Rod not favoring winning before that instance, once again, how do you know that? The Texas Rangers were bad in 2000, but prior to that, they had made the playoffs in three out of four years. They were wiling to spend a lot of money, and it's very possible that A-Rod thought that had a legitimate shot to contend.

 

They offered a record contract to him and that team had zero pitching.

 

As for disagreeing with me on the importance of winning, fair enough. Just think about this for a minute. We're actually debating the mindsets of other people. Think about how ridiculous that is. At least I'm acknowledging that it's simply my opinion, and nothing more. You're talking about it as if it's a certainty.

 

I'm combining other people's mindsets with common sense. Common sense and history dictate that money is the selling point. 99% of the time, occasionally there is an outlier.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Gom says...

 

J_E....you are being owned by Jacko (and 228). Badly.

 

I'm probably in good shape, then.

 

OH GOD 26 TO 6 IS VIEWING I BETTER RUN N HIDE

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

it may not be as good as when pedroia ells' date=' paps, bard and all them were down there but they are still damn good. j_e is right the red sox have a great minor league system. Reddick did well in the majors and anderson had one bad year doesn't mean that he done for his career.[/quote']

He thinks that because we might not have any prospects making a splash in 2010, that our system is weak. It's fantastic, I know.

[jacksonianmarch]

Exactly, so its moot.

 

 

 

They offered a record contract to him and that team had zero pitching.

 

 

 

I'm combining other people's mindsets with common sense. Common sense and history dictate that money is the selling point. 99% of the time, occasionally there is an outlier.

 

he isnt disagreeing with you dumbass

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

he isnt disagreeing with you dumbass

 

Show me where I used the term disagree or implied that he was disagreeing with me, slugger. lrn2reed

[bsox0407]

Reddick his .169 and had an OPS of .549. He was terrible' date=' granted it was a SSS[/quote']

 

for the limited action that he saw he did fine. the first time seeing major league pitching he did okay.

 

look at pedroia in his first year. BA. 191 look where he ended up. i have complete faith in reddick.

[26 to 6]

I don't need to. This is more of your patented Red Sox 'analysis' while wearing your navy-colored sunglasses and Jeter replica jersey.

How do you know it's not Authentic

 

ARod was willing to take a 16 million dollar pay cut to play for a contender.

Let's not forget he was willing to change positions even though he was arguably the best shortstop EVER. Not to mention when the Yankees cut off negotiations with Boras regarding A-Rod following the 2007 opt-out he went behind Boras's back to negotiate with the Yankees HIMSELF. If winning wasn't a priority for him he could have easily gone elsewhere and still gotten top dollar. We can all say what we want about A-Rod and the things he has said and done over the years, but I think it's pretty evident the dude really wants to win, and win in New York.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Let's not forget he was willing to change positions even though he was arguably the best shortstop EVER.

 

lolwut?

 

Not to mention when the Yankees cut off negotiations with Boras regarding A-Rod following the 2007 opt-out he went behind Boras's back to negotiate with the Yankees HIMSELF.

 

Because he disagreed with the way Boras handled the situation (bypassing Yankee management, announcing during the clinching WS game, etc.). Also because he wouldn't have gotten that money anywhere else.

 

If winning wasn't a priority for him he could have easily gone elsewhere and still gotten top dollar.

 

Yankees = top dollar.

 

We can all say what we want about A-Rod and the things he has said and done over the years, but I think it's pretty evident the dude really wants to win, and win in New York.

 

Because New York provides him the most money.

[yankees228]

Based on his actions, mainly the thing with the Red Sox and switching positions, I happen to feel that winning is just as important to A-Rod as money, if not more important.

[26 to 6]

Gom says...

 

 

 

I'm probably in good shape, then.

 

OH GOD 26 TO 6 IS VIEWING I BETTER RUN N HIDE

Ya damn right bitch...I'm comin for YOU!!!

 

He thinks that because we might not have any prospects making a splash in 2010, that our system is weak. It's fantastic, I know.

I could be wrong but I don't recall Jacko ever saying the Sox system was "weak," just that it wasn't as strong anymore. There's a difference, bud. And your only response to anything he has said has been 'Your a Yankee fan so what you say doesnt matter' in so many words. And when given the chance to refute his claims and analysis your response was 'No I don't have to....you're a Yankee fan with a biased opinion' (again, in so many words). Did you read the link he provided by Benjamin from The Globe? I didn't see you attacking her analysis.

 

What a clown...

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:apQ6LuOJi5I5oM:http://k41.pbase.com/v3/90/494590/1/51321746.SadClown_sat.jpg

[26 to 6]

lolwut?

Seriously?

 

WHEN THE BEST PLAYER EVER AT A PARTICULAR POSITION IS WILLING TO CHANGE POSITIONS TO PLAY FOR A CONTENDER IT'S OBVIOUSLY FOR THE MONEY, RIGHT?

 

You're an idiot man.