Harden to Red Sox?

[BOSOX11]

After Harden, we can re-sign Penny & Smoltz, too.

[Dipre]

After Harden' date=' we can re-sign Penny & Smoltz, too.[/quote']

 

Asinine comment.

[Emmz]

After Harden' date=' we can re-sign Penny & Smoltz, too.[/quote']

 

I've never seen you here before, but this isn't a very good first impression

[Paradisecity]

I've never hardened to the Red Sox, but sometimes when I am they happen to be on in the background.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

After Harden' date=' we can re-sign Penny & Smoltz, too.[/quote']

Thank god I have a functioning sarcasm detector.

[Emmz]

I've never hardened to the Red Sox' date=' but sometimes when I am they happen to be on in the background.[/quote']

 

[example1]

Hernandez sounds good' date=' but this team has many needs to address which probably couldn't be fulfilled if they pay the price for Hernandez.[/quote']

 

I'm not sure about this, but I think your point is the crux of the discussion about that potential deal.

 

 

I like the idea of the Sox looking at Prince Fielder and the pitcher listed above. I'm pretty sure they could land both with some combination of talent that they have already. I'm not sure that I would want them to part with Buchholz for The King, but if moving Buchholz got them Fielder, and moving a bunch of other stuff (and then paying a shitload of money) got them The King, then I don't think I would be too pissed off.

 

Ellsbury

Pedroia

Martinez

Youkilis

Fielder

Ortiz

Bay

Drew

Lowrie/Gonzo/Whoever

 

The King

Beckett

Lester

Dice-K

#5 (Harden/Lackey/someone else)

 

Sick Bullpen... 'nuff said.

 

 

Looking at their numbers, Prince Fielder compares favorably (i.e., similarly) to that other horse-faced douchebag that the Sox pursued last offseason. 162 G averages:

 

Horse-Faced Douche: 29 y.o., .290/.378/.545/.923, 37 HR, 122 RBI

Balloon-Sized Jr.,: 25 y.o., .283/.380/.548/.928, 38 HR, 108 RBI

 

Those are remarkably similar numbers and I think Prince would be available.

 

I say the Sox break the talent bank and try to get the Prince and the King and make a run at it for a few years.

[Emmz]

I'm not sure about this, but I think your point is the crux of the discussion about that potential deal.

 

 

I like the idea of the Sox looking at Prince Fielder and the pitcher listed above. I'm pretty sure they could land both with some combination of talent that they have already. I'm not sure that I would want them to part with Buchholz for The King, but if moving Buchholz got them Fielder, and moving a bunch of other stuff (and then paying a shitload of money) got them The King, then I don't think I would be too pissed off.

 

Ellsbury

Pedroia

Martinez

Youkilis

Fielder

Ortiz

Bay

Drew

Lowrie/Gonzo/Whoever

 

The King

Beckett

Lester

Dice-K

#5 (Harden/Lackey/someone else)

 

Sick Bullpen... 'nuff said.

 

 

Looking at their numbers, Prince Fielder compares favorably (i.e., similarly) to that other horse-faced douchebag that the Sox pursued last offseason. 162 G averages:

 

Horse-Faced Douche: 29 y.o., .290/.378/.545/.923, 37 HR, 122 RBI

Balloon-Sized Jr.,: 25 y.o., .283/.380/.548/.928, 38 HR, 108 RBI

 

Those are remarkably similar numbers and I think Prince would be available.

 

I say the Sox break the talent bank and try to get the Prince and the King and make a run at it for a few years.

 

I would definitely go for that. And Hell, Prince actually edges Tex out in most of those stats, aside from RBI and BA. Not sure, but I'd really, really like to make some kind of move for Hardy, maybe land both in the same deal would be nice, but he's better in the field than Gonzo, and has a tremendous upside. Not to mention, his bad year (Which is still superior to the year Gonzo is having), will probably bring his cost down significantly

 

If we could get all these pieces, we'd be very, very competitive next season, especially consider how competitive we are this season. I think that lineup would be a force to be reckoned with for all times, and even better if Hardy were to rebound.

 

As far as pitching, if we were to land King Felix, and as stated, it would be costly, very costly, as well as that 5th starter, such as Harden (Who would also most likely come at a reduced price, due to his injury plagued past), they could have one of the best rotations as well. We'd really have to break the bank to do all of this, and of course not all moves are likely, but it's jizz-in-your-pants-esque to think about the possibilities.

 

(For the record, I do realize that if we were able to fork over for Prince and Hernandez, it would be very unlikely that we would be able to pay up for Hardy, but I'm just saying, it COULD happen)

[example1]

I just don't think Hardy is the type of player the Red Sox FO would covet. I realize his upside and power potential, and I realize that he has historically been a plus defender. I just have a feeling that he's not their type. I realize also that he compares favorably with Gonzalez, but what would the cost be to acquire him? If it is any substantial return in prospects I just don't see it happening. If he were a FA then it may be a different issue.

[Emmz]

I just don't think Hardy is the type of player the Red Sox FO would covet. I realize his upside and power potential' date=' and I realize that he has historically been a plus defender. I just have a feeling that he's not their type. I realize also that he compares favorably with Gonzalez, but what would the cost be to acquire him? If it is any substantial return in prospects I just don't see it happening. If he were a FA then it may be a different issue.[/quote']

 

Sure, I feel the same way, but with his down year, you can never tell what it takes, sometimes the cost is reduced substantially, sometimes, not so much. Hardy had an absolutely dreadful year this year, he got sent to the minors. With that being said, I think the cost is down, but I don't know to what degree. And you're right, maybe he isn't the type of guy that the FO would be looking at, however, I'm dreaming when I say this. A bunch of ifs would have to be fulfilled

[Keeper]

Forget Harden and Bedard. Go after Lackey or Felix. Harden/Bedard could help out the rotation. Lackey/Felix will help out the rotation.

[Dipre]

Forget Harden and Bedard. Go after Lackey or Felix. Harden/Bedard could help out the rotation. Lackey/Felix will help out the rotation.

 

Felix's price would be massive, Lackey's would be too.

 

With the first 4 spots in the rotation already locks, i'd rather they sign a project and focus their resources into other areas.

[Keeper]

That's fine, but they're not going to land Fielder without giving up Buchholz (the Brewers are desperate for pitching). So if they go that route, getting Lackey or Felix would become a necessity.

[Dipre]

That's fine' date=' but they're not going to land Fielder without giving up Buchholz (the Brewers are desperate for pitching). So if they go that route, getting Lackey or Felix would become a necessity.[/quote']

 

Exploring other options would be necessary then.

 

Getting Fielder and Felix is a pipe dream IMHO, and signing Lackey to a multi-year deal is just not worth it.

[BOSOX11]

Thank god I have a functioning sarcasm detector.

 

I knew someone had a good sense of humor!

[Dipre]

I knew someone had a good sense of humor!

 

The Red Sox are serious business.

[Emmz]

^This^

 

And of course, there's NEVER a chance of someone being serious about such crap pile moves

[Dojji]

I just don't think Hardy is the type of player the Red Sox FO would covet. I realize his upside and power potential' date=' and I realize that he has historically been a plus defender. I just have a feeling that he's not their type. I realize also that he compares favorably with Gonzalez, but what would the cost be to acquire him? If it is any substantial return in prospects I just don't see it happening. If he were a FA then it may be a different issue.[/quote']

 

That's OK. There's another target I'd actually rather they go after than Hardy.

 

Personally, I think the Mets are at least as willing to contemplate moving Jose Reyes as, say, the Mariners are to dealing HWSNBN or the Brewers to talk about dealing The Prince. And for better reason -- Reyes is about to get pretty expensive while those other two are still pretty cost-controlled.

 

Not that Reyes won't be very expensive of course but he's got a very real chance of being worth the price. We're talking about perhaps the single greatest leadoff hitter in the league -- a career .350 OBP hitter with PROVEN 60-70 steal speed and quite a bit of triples power. That's a league ahead of Hardy, and if there's ANY chance you could deal for him you almost have to do it.

[example1]

That's OK. There's another target I'd actually rather they go after than Hardy.

 

Personally, I think the Mets are at least as willing to contemplate moving Jose Reyes as, say, the Mariners are to dealing HWSNBN or the Brewers to talk about dealing The Prince. And for better reason -- Reyes is about to get pretty expensive while those other two are still pretty cost-controlled.

 

Not that Reyes won't be very expensive of course but he's got a very real chance of being worth the price. We're talking about perhaps the single greatest leadoff hitter in the league -- a career .350 OBP hitter with PROVEN 60-70 steal speed and quite a bit of triples power. That's a league ahead of Hardy, and if there's ANY chance you could deal for him you almost have to do it.

 

I think you're probably right about Reyes. He has a year (2010) and an option, both getting closer to that FA salary (9 and 11m respectively). Have we all agreed that a .350 OBP and 60-70 steal potential makes you best leadoff hitter in the league material? If so, we've got that already.

 

That said, having another offensive presence like Ellsbury at SS would be a nice upgrade to the Lowrie and Gonzalez offensive hole they've had there for awhile. Reyes has some tools that Ellsbury doesn't (a bit more power specifically--gap and HR), but they're remarkably similar offensive weapons. I wonder if the Mets would be willing to trade Reyes for a package like Bowden and Lowrie. It isn't a great return, but between cost, injury history and low OBP Reyes isn't a god and shouldn't be traded for like one. If they wanted absolutely top dollar they should have traded him two years ago when he was untouchable. Bowden and Lowrie sounds a little low to me, but not by much, and if I were the Sox I wouldn't want to throw a whole lot more cost controlled talent NY's way.

[Dipre]

Have we all agreed that a .350 OBP and 60-70 steal potential makes you best leadoff hitter in the league material? If so, we've got that already.

 

That said, having another offensive presence like Ellsbury at SS would be a nice upgrade to the Lowrie and Gonzalez offensive hole they've had there for awhile. Reyes has some tools that Ellsbury doesn't (a bit more power specifically--gap and HR), but they're remarkably similar offensive weapons.

 

Ellsbury is not in the same universe as Reyes in the power department.

 

Reyes has 20-40-10 potential.

[Paradisecity]

Ellsbury Reyes going 9-1 would be filthy.

[Dojji]

Reyes is probably at least as good a #2 hitter as Pedroia. Better, since his performance isn't tied quite so much into batting average.

 

Ellsbury singles, Reyes doubles or triples. that's probably at least 4 or 5 instant 1-0 leads over the course of a season.

 

IMHO that would turn Pedroia into one heck of a #7 hitter.

[example1]

Ellsbury is not in the same universe as Reyes in the power department.

 

Reyes has 20-40-10 potential.

 

Same universe? You do realize that the universe is a big place... as big as you can get.

 

Ellsbury is not in the same universe as Pujols in the power department.

 

Reyes played a full season in 2007 and had 12 HRs. His career high is 19, but with 7, 19, 12 and 16 the last four full seasons, I don't think they are separated by as much as "universe" would imply.

[Dipre]

Reyes is probably at least as good a #2 hitter as Pedroia. Better, since his performance isn't tied quite so much into batting average.

 

Ellsbury singles, Reyes doubles or triples. that's probably at least 4 or 5 instant 1-0 leads over the course of a season.

 

IMHO that would turn Pedroia into one heck of a #7 hitter.

 

Nope.

 

Ellsbury-Reyes-Pedroia.

 

Pedroia is the most fundamentally sound hitter on this team, and having Ellsbury in the 9-hole would really strengthen the lower part of the lineup.

[das11209]

Nope.

 

Ellsbury-Reyes-Pedroia.

 

Pedroia is the most fundamentally sound hitter on this team, and having Ellsbury in the 9-hole would really strengthen the lower part of the lineup.

 

Ped is a great hitter - but not sure about that part. His swing is as unorthodox as it could be - specially for a guy of his size.

[Dipre]

Same universe? You do realize that the universe is a big place... as big as you can get.

 

Ellsbury is not in the same universe as Pujols in the power department.

 

Reyes played a full season in 2007 and had 12 HRs. His career high is 19, but with 7, 19, 12 and 16 the last four full seasons, I don't think they are separated by as much as "universe" would imply.

 

Really?

 

I thought that a player who could hit nearly twice as many XBH as another player who played in a much better hitter's park could be considered "Not in the same universe".

[Dipre]

Ped is a great hitter - but not sure about that part. His swing is as unorthodox as it could be - specially for a guy of his size.

 

Do you know what "fundamentally sound" means?

 

His swing has nothing to do with it, it's his approach.

[example1]

Reyes is probably at least as good a #2 hitter as Pedroia. Better' date=' since his performance isn't tied quite so much into batting average.[/b']

 

Ellsbury singles, Reyes doubles or triples. that's probably at least 4 or 5 instant 1-0 leads over the course of a season.

 

IMHO that would turn Pedroia into one heck of a #7 hitter.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by this above. Pedroia has a better IsoD than Reyes, which tells me that he has better plate discipline.

 

I think having a higher average is still a good thing, it just isn't as important as OBP. Reyes has a lower OBP and a lower AVG than Pedroia. That doesn't make him a better hitter in my book. It would, however, make them a killer combination up the middle.

 

Could you imagine the range covered between Reyes at SS and Ellsbury in CF. They aren't both the greatest fielders in the world, but they would cover a lot of ground and probably make a lot of spectacular plays.

[Dipre]

I'm not sure what you mean by this above. Pedroia has a better IsoD than Reyes, which tells me that he has better plate discipline.

 

I think having a higher average is still a good thing, it just isn't as important as OBP. Reyes has a lower OBP and a lower AVG than Pedroia. That doesn't make him a better hitter in my book.

 

Again, no other hitter on this team is as good a #2 hitter as Pedroia, his approach is the best, since he plays to the score and respects the fundamentals.

[example1]

Really?

 

I thought that a player who could hit nearly twice as many XBH as another player who played in a much better hitter's park could be considered "Not in the same universe".

 

45 or 46 XBH vs 61 XBH (their 162 G averages) is not almost twice as many. Interstingly, this type of measurement is reflected nicely in SLG.

 

I acknowledged early on that Reyes has better power, nobody doubts that, but the difference between a .435 and a .414 SLG isn't some universal gap that dwarfs one over the other.