Ellsbury's Spot in the Order

[jacksonianmarch]

They both suck

[BSN07]

I've been stressing the fact that the way pitches work Ellsbury when he's batting first negatively affects his ability to draw walks' date=' and his production batting 7th in the order justifies my theory.[/quote']

 

Forgive me for not seeing this. But if this is the case, we are on the same page:thumbsup:

[Dojji]

Ellsbury's actually gut his SLG up over .400 thanks in large part to those two triples the other day.

 

Ellsbury and Gardner are actually having pretty similar years. Ellsbury has slightly more power and makes better contact, Gardner walks more and strikes out more. Ellsbury has the advantage in overall stolen bases, Gardner has a better SB%.

 

Just one more point of rivalry between the Sox and Yankees I guess, who has the better speedy leadoff type.

[jacksonianmarch]

I wouldnt say Ellsbury is faster at all. Right now, he is the better basestealer, but in simple footspeed, Gardner is one of the fastest guys the yankees have ever had and I believe his 60 time was faster than Ellsbury's. Ellsbury has the reads down a bit better and he plays more.

[BoSox21]

I wouldnt say Ellsbury is faster at all. Right now' date=' he is the better basestealer, but in simple footspeed, Gardner is one of the fastest guys the yankees have ever had and I believe his 60 time was faster than Ellsbury's. Ellsbury has the reads down a bit better and he plays more.[/quote']

 

incredible how dense you are sometimes. where the hell did Dojji say Ellsbury was faster?

[jacksonianmarch]

He edited it

[Dojji]

Yeah, I was clarifying my point. But Ellsbury *is* faster than Gardner.

[BoSox21]

whoever's faster is pretty irrelevant anyways....base-stealing is not all about speed, tracking down flys is not all about speed and both can score from 1st on just about any double

 

EDIT: in this instance, I apologize for calling you dense Jacko

[Spudboy]

whoever's faster is pretty irrelevant anyways....base-stealing is not all about speed, tracking down flys is not all about speed and both can score from 1st on just about any double

 

EDIT: in this instance, I apologize for calling you dense Jacko

 

I don't choose to become involved with an Ellsbury vs. Gardner debate. But I will add this.

 

Gardner appears to have a harder head.

 

That is all.

[jacksonianmarch]

basestealing requires both innate speed and a skill that is learned with experience. Gardner had it down in the minors, but pitchers in the bigs are better at pickoffs and slidesteps, so it makes for a difficult read. That being said, Gardner has been given the green light of late and he's been running more. I like it.

 

I said before the season, that an OBP of over .350 would be all I asked for from Gardy. He's at .358 right now. If he can continue that, then I'd petition for him to be starting over Melky and basically anyone else out there. He has a great eye, his contact has improved and he is stealing more bases. He sounds like a guy who is gonna patrol CF for the next few seasons and get better with time, which is all I can ask for. And when Damon leaves next season, I expect Gardner to slot into the leadoff spot and be a f***ing pest for a long time to come. While Ellsbury has more power, Gardner does the job of the speed demon better. You can't steal 1b, and Gardner is willing to take the pitches to get there. Ellsbury is a hacker whose patience is lacking.

[Dojji]

The irony here is, of course, that Gardner beats Ellsbury's OBP by a whopping .003

[Dipre]

The irony here is' date=' of course, that Gardner beats Ellsbury's OBP by a whopping .003[/quote']

 

In a lot less ABs while batting lower in the order.

 

Jacko, please refrain from making ballwashing comments if they lack any semblance of accuracy.

 

You seem to discount the fact that Ellsbury's PPA has risen nearly 1 full point since being moved to the 7th spot.

 

Logic dictates that, from watching his minor league numbers, Ellsbury has NEVER been a hacker, rather, something changed in his approach since becoming a ML regular, that something was the fact that pitchers attack him in the zone to keep him from getting on base through the walk, since he offers minimal power,the chances of him getting an XBH were also minimal, so the reward of getting rid of him early in the count versus the danger of him reaching first via hit also early in the count was a sound approach.

 

Lower in the order with lesser hitters behind him, the risk/reward factor is greatly reduced, so pitchers work him with less urgency, therefore allowing him to work his ABs in normal fashion.

 

And i will say this,Jacko, stop your "homer" idiocy, Jacoby Ellsbury is a better baseball player than Brett Gardner, no matter how you try to sugarcoat it with douchebag comments.

 

Oh, and further research shows the following:

 

Ellsbury home-to-first from the left side: 3.8 seconds.

 

Gardner home-to-first from the left side: 3.9 seconds.

[jacksonianmarch]

You guys are incredible. Homers to the end. I said that Gardner is more patient.

 

Exhibit A:

Ellsbury IsoPatience: .048

Gardner IsoPatience: .077

 

Exhibit B:

Ellsbury P/PA: 3.80

Gardner P/PA: 4.05

 

Exhibit C: Minor League #s

Ellsbury IsoPatience: .076

Gardner IsoPatience: .098

 

There isnt much of a comparison. Gardner has been categorically, the more patient hitter than Ellsbury. There hasnt been a change of approach. If anything, Gardner should be the only guy they go after whether he's in the 8 or 9 hole, yet he gets walked at a higher rate. That argument makes no sense. Gardner bats in front of Jeter out of the 9 hole while Ellsbury bats in front of Nick Green in the 7 hole. Plus, another fact to douse your fire.

 

Ellsbury IsoP by batting position

Leadoff: .033

Second: .182 (only 17ABs)

Seventh: .052 (only 35AB)

Eighth: .063 (only 14AB)

 

So even with the position change, the IsoPatience does not touch Gardner's.

 

When you compare these players, you need to think about the type of player they are and how they contribute to a club. For Gardner and Ellsbury, neither will ever be big slugging percentage kinds of guys. They are pests. They are best when they are on base. And while Ellsbury's OBP is significantly impacted by his BA, Gardner's isnt as he is more patient. So, in the long run, I expect Ells to have the higher average, but Gardner to have the higher OBP as he learns the league since he has proven at every level that he is more selective and more patient.

 

In terms of the better overall player, it is way too early to call that. Both of them have near identical OBPs and OPSs with Ellsbury having a decided advantage in BA. They were born within 3 weeks of each other although Ellsbury has a yr on him in terms of experience. So I am not calling that now. I am just saying that the player who has the higher OBP in their instances will be the more valuable offensive player and I think long term, Gardner possesses the tools to outdo Ells in that singular category

[Dipre]

SSS recognition FAIL.

 

Gardner has 179 PA's vs Ellsbury's 302.

 

There's a reason why Gardner's your 4th OF.

 

I contend that IsoPatience is a useless stat, i like to use P/PA which you used in your comparison.

 

However, if you notice the 0.25 difference between Ellsbury's and Gardner's P/PA after Jacoby's abysmal OBP start and Gardner's lack of playing time, the end result is a LOL directed from me to you.

 

Also, genius, this sentence:

 

There isnt much of a comparison. Gardner has been categorically, the more patient hitter than Ellsbury. There hasnt been a change of approach. If anything, Gardner should be the only guy they go after whether he's in the 8 or 9 hole, yet he gets walked at a higher rate. That argument makes no sense. Gardner bats in front of Jeter out of the 9 hole while Ellsbury bats in front of Nick Green in the 7 hole.

 

Then explain the sudden OBP and P/PA from Ellsbury after dropping to the 7th spot.

 

It's simple, pitchers are throwing him less strikes.

 

And one last thing:

 

IsoPatience, LOL.

[jacksonianmarch]

You can downplay the stat all you want. It is a legitimate stat. I dont really have much in the way of a rebuttal if you wont accept a legitimate stat. Thats like saying rads or greys arent good stats in radiation or that pounds or kilos arent good units of measure. It isnt debatable. Just shows a deficit in your skillset as a thinking human being.

[TheKilo]

You can downplay the stat all you want. It is a legitimate stat. I dont really have much in the way of a rebuttal if you wont accept a legitimate stat. Thats like saying rads or greys arent good stats in radiation or that pounds or kilos arent good units of measure. It isnt debatable. Just shows a deficit in your skillset as a thinking human being.

 

Watch it

 

I GET RESULTS

[Dipre]

You can downplay the stat all you want. It is a legitimate stat. I dont really have much in the way of a rebuttal if you wont accept a legitimate stat. Thats like saying rads or greys arent good stats in radiation or that pounds or kilos arent good units of measure. It isnt debatable. Just shows a deficit in your skillset as a thinking human being.

 

You have a legitimate rebuttal.

 

OBP and P/PA are legitimate stats.

 

IsoP is a flawed stat because it doesn't affect outside factors that might negatively influence a batter's OBP numbers.

 

One can contend that in a fluky season a batter can lose a significant amount of OBP points from Sac Flies, Sac Bunts and missed 3rd strike calls while another can gain a significant amount from Fielder's choices, HBPs and the like.

 

That's why P/PA is a much more valuable tool to determine a hitter's plate discipline.

 

Not only that, this outside factors have, of course, a much greater impact the smaller the sample size is.

 

Your reliance on such a simple stat as IsoP denotes your inability of deep analisys and overall data processing ability.

 

Gotta wonder how much that degree in medicine cost you............

[jacksonianmarch]

Sac flies and bunts are a miniscule portion of the derivation especially when you are talking about two players in the AL. But, if you wont accept an accepted stat, then how about another one

 

BB%. I know, I have to explain seeing as math isnt a strong suit in the dominican. BB/(AB+BB). The percentage of ABs that result in walks. Gardner's is 10%. Ellsbury's is 6%. That is another stat to prove my point. Need I go on?

[Dipre]

Sac flies and bunts are a miniscule portion of the derivation especially when you are talking about two players in the AL. But, if you wont accept an accepted stat, then how about another one

 

BB%. I know, I have to explain seeing as math isnt a strong suit in the dominican. BB/(AB+BB). The percentage of ABs that result in walks. Gardner's is 10%. Ellsbury's is 6%. That is another stat to prove my point. Need I go on?

 

SSS.

 

Do i need to explain it seeing as common sense isn't a strong suit in idiotland?

[jacksonianmarch]

Just remember my dominican friend. You live in a land of morons. All you need to do is recite the alphabet to get a law degree in the lawless DR. And also remember, we teach your country how to be good physicians. Unfortunately, when you have s*** to work with, you get s*** results. Kinda like having a team full of Julio Lugo's. You can only do so much.

[Dipre]

Just remember my dominican friend. You live in a land of morons. All you need to do is recite the alphabet to get a law degree in the lawless DR. And also remember' date=' we teach your country how to be good physicians. Unfortunately, when you have s*** to work with, you get s*** results. Kinda like having a team full of Julio Lugo's. You can only do so much.[/quote']

 

When cornered by a stronger argument, let us resort to douchebag jokes.

 

Speaking of the land of morons, i wonder if yours isn't the true land of morons seeing as you graduated high school and all.

 

Then again, since your school was a trailer, only so much can be expected of its difficulty level.

 

In fact, the difficulty was so low that you graduated.

[VA Sox Fan]

Just remember my dominican friend. You live in a land of morons. All you need to do is recite the alphabet to get a law degree in the lawless DR. And also remember' date=' we teach your country how to be good physicians. Unfortunately, when you have s*** to work with, you get s*** results. Kinda like having a team full of Julio Lugo's. You can only do so much.[/quote']

 

:thumbdown You are an ass.

[TheKilo]

Ahhhh racism

[Dipre]

Ahhhh racism

 

The usual answer to those who have been outsmarted and need to make a last, desperate save-face attempt.

[jacksonianmarch]

I had the argument. I just felt like getting a dig in too

[Dipre]

I had the argument. I just felt like getting a dig in too

 

Lol IsoP lol.

 

You just felt like you got buttraped because you know the SSS argument is a valid one.

 

However, fear not, since it is clear you have accomplished your goal of looking like a douchebag.

[TheKilo]

I had the argument. I just felt like getting a dig in too

 

So resorting to racism is OK?

[BoSox21]

and wtf does him being dominican have to do with anything?

[Dipre]

Calm down guys, it's Jacko.

 

That is as far as his intellect will take him.

[jacksonianmarch]

So resorting to racism is OK?

 

Christ people. Its not racism. I said his country was dumb as s***. Its a third world country. Not exactly breaking new ground here.