lugo needs to be dropped

[craigclifford]

Julio lugo is not the same player we got from the rays,average is way down,absolutly no power and his errors are a joke,most in the majors so y is'nt he dropped??????????cora is not much better but is an improvement slightly. I think we need a shortstop and releiver before trade deadline. Do you guys agree?

[CrespoBlows]

We don't need to make a trade, we have Jed Lowrie to fill that hole.

[Jayhawk Bill]

Julio lugo is not the same player we got from the rays' date='average is way down,absolutly no power and his errors are a joke,most in the majors so y is'nt he dropped??????????cora is not much better but is an improvement slightly. I think we need a shortstop and releiver before trade deadline. Do you guys agree?[/quote']

 

First, welcome to TalkSox!

 

Second, no, I disagree. Lugo is the 7th-best SS in the AL according to VORP, and his better-hitting past suggests that there's an upside, despite his age. Lugo has a good throwing arm and good range into the hole, offsetting his tendency to errors.

 

Half of the teams in the AL have a SS worse than Lugo. Maybe we're not getting our money's worth, but we're getting a league-average SS, and unless we're trading for Hanley Ramirez or Jose Reyes, neither of whom is rumored to be available, we won't do too much better than Julio Lugo.

[BSN07]

Boston has enough money to admit they where wrong, and just release his ass. Yes it will cost millions, but it's not like there hurting for money. Maybe someone is dumb enough to take him in a trade if the Sox eat atleast half his salary. they can't let his contract get in the way of this teams ultimate goal.

 

 

I've been all for them being patient with him but hes becoming a joke. I'm actually almost convinced he was on something in TB. He had some pop in his bat then, now he is a shell of his former self. He was a D+- C player, then became a B- player, and when the drug policy stiffend up, he quickly became a D+ guy again. Just a hunch/opinion.

[BSN07]

JB is right tho, theres nothing out there thats better.

 

I'd take reyes but NYM are highly unlikely to part ways with him, maybe in the off season for some young pitching.

 

Eckstein is said to be available, but we know how TOR is with trading within the division.

 

Uribe from the CWS? Blaaah....

 

Green from SD? I wouldn't mind seeing that.

 

Vizquel from SF? Not a long term option, but a band aid for this season.

 

J. Wilson from Pitt? I guess they could do worse.

 

What else is out there? Maybe a young prospect, but we know those come at a hi price.

 

Lowrie does seem like an option now, give him a shot and see what he can do for a long stretch.

[ksushi]

I disagree about Jose Reyes being highly unlikely to move. I think Omar is under a lot of pressure given that a lot of moves he has made haven't paid off. I think Reyes could be had for the right price. Theo proved that trading a scuffling star SS can jump start a team. You need defense more than anything up the middle of the diamond, and Reyes has been disappointing all year. I wouldn't be surprised if they hooked up with Seattle and traded Reyes for Betancourt + other big pieces. Could be very beneficial for both teams.

 

If Reyes becomes available, we should definitely have our fingers in that cookie jar. We should make a very decent offer, but the problem is Omar is fighting for his job now. He needs to do something this year, and while we could offer an impressive bounty, even one that would really help the Mets down the road, Omar isn't looking down the road. His road ends with September if he doesn't make the playoffs this year.

[Jayhawk Bill]

He was a D+- C player' date=' then became a B- player, and when the drug policy stiffend up, he quickly became a D+ guy again. Just a hunch/opinion.[/quote']

 

I'd improve the letter grades to B, A-, and C+, but otherwise I concur.

 

Green from SD? I wouldn't mind seeing that.

 

Neither would I, but there are rumors in cyberspace that I'm really Khalil Greene's agent posting under a pseudonym.

[Jayhawk Bill]

I disagree about Jose Reyes being highly unlikely to move. I think Omar is under a lot of pressure given that a lot of moves he has made haven't paid off. I think Reyes could be had for the right price. Theo proved that trading a scuffling star SS can jump start a team. You need defense more than anything up the middle of the diamond, and Reyes has been disappointing all year. I wouldn't be surprised if they hooked up with Seattle and traded Reyes for Betancourt + other big pieces. Could be very beneficial for both teams.

 

If Reyes becomes available, we should definitely have our fingers in that cookie jar. We should make a very decent offer, but the problem is Omar is fighting for his job now. He needs to do something this year, and while we could offer an impressive bounty, even one that would really help the Mets down the road, Omar isn't looking down the road. His road ends with September if he doesn't make the playoffs this year.

 

Interesting thought, ksushi.

 

For Jose Reyes:

 

Julio Lugo and...

 

Justin Masterson and Manny Ramirez? :dunno:

[BSN07]

Lugo/Colon/Bowden wouldn't be bad.

 

Mets get a SS, A SP for this years run, and a good young arm for the future.

 

I know this weakens the Sox pitching depth, but Colon is only around this season, sell hi on him if you can, before he goes down with something big. Maybe throw in an OF prospect to sweeten the pot.

 

 

Reyes can be an electric player, and a great lead off man. Maybe a change of scenary and a little friendly competition between him and Jacoby for SB Crown:D

[CrespoBlows]

First, welcome to TalkSox!

 

Second, no, I disagree. Lugo is the 7th-best SS in the AL according to VORP, and his better-hitting past suggests that there's an upside, despite his age. Lugo has a good throwing arm and good range into the hole, offsetting his tendency to errors.

 

Half of the teams in the AL have a SS worse than Lugo. Maybe we're not getting our money's worth, but we're getting a league-average SS, and unless we're trading for Hanley Ramirez or Jose Reyes, neither of whom is rumored to be available, we won't do too much better than Julio Lugo.

 

In fairness to the other shortstops, with the exception of Derek Jeter, Lugo's atrocious year in the field has to be added to the comparison.

 

WARP1

 

Young - 4.0 (TEX)

O. Cabrera - 3.3 (CHA)

Peralta - 2.6 (CLE)

Crosby - 2.0 (OAK)

Aybar - 1.7 (LAA)

Jeter - 0.9 (NYY)

Eckstein - 0.9 (TOR)

Bartlett - 0.8 (TBA)

Renteria - 0.7 (DET)

Lugo - 0.5 (BOS)

Betancourt - 0.1 (SEA)

Bynum - -0.4 (BAL)

Pena Jr. - -1.8 (KCR)

 

According to WARP1, Lugo would be tenth out of the fourteen SS in the AL. The Royals have already replaced Pena Jr. with Mike Aviles, who already has a higher WARP than Lugo. The Orioles are looking to upgrade at SS, as well.

 

If the field is expanded to the entire MLB, Lugo tumbles even further down the list:

 

Ramirez - 5.1 (FLA)

Reyes - 4.6 (NYM)

Young - 4.0 (TEX)

Hardy - 3.6 (MIL)

Escobar - 3.6 (ATL)

Cabrera - 3.3 (CHA)

Tejada - 3.2 (HOU)

Guzman - 2.7 (WAS)

Theriot - 2.6 (CHN)

Peralta - 2.6 (CLE)

Furcal - 2.4 (LAD)

Rollins - 2.4 (PHI)

Crosby - 2.0 (OAK)

Aybar - 1.7 (LAA)

Greene - 1.6 (SDP)

Wilson - 1.5 (PIT)

Drew - 1.1 (ARI)

Keppinger - 1.0 (CIN)

Jeter - 0.9 (NYY)

Eckstein - 0.9 (TOR)

Bartlett - 0.8 (TBA)

Renteria - 0.7 (DET)

Lugo - 0.5 (BOS)

Izturis - 0.3 (STL)

Tulowitzki - 0.0

Betancourt - 0.1 (SEA)

Vizquel - -0.3 (SFG)

Bynum - -0.4 (BAL)

Pena Jr. - -1.8 (KCR)

 

The Red Sox can certaintly improve production from the SS spot. The obvious solution is Jed Lowrie, who is hitting a fine .276/.363/.443 at Pawtucket, and in his time at the MLB level had a 0.7 WARP1.

[yeszir]

Neither would I, but there are rumors in cyberspace that I'm really Khalil Greene's agent posting under a pseudonym.

Either that or Bill James

[CrespoBlows]

Lugo/Colon/Bowden wouldn't be bad.

 

Mets get a SS, A SP for this years run, and a good young arm for the future.

 

I know this weakens the Sox pitching depth, but Colon is only around this season, sell hi on him if you can, before he goes down with something big. Maybe throw in an OF prospect to sweeten the pot.

 

 

Reyes can be an electric player, and a great lead off man. Maybe a change of scenary and a little friendly competition between him and Jacoby for SB Crown:D

 

The Met fan base would riot if Minaya made this trade.

[CrespoBlows]

Interesting thought, ksushi.

 

For Jose Reyes:

 

Julio Lugo and...

 

Justin Masterson and Manny Ramirez? :dunno:

 

I'd be for it.

 

Who plays LF?

[Jayhawk Bill]

I'd be for it.

 

Who plays LF?

 

1) It presupposes Big Papi's readiness to return to his role as DH.

 

2) Ellsbury, with room for either Moss or Carter on the 25-man. Carter has been adequate in LF in AAA and is the better bat; Moss can play RF, which Carter simply cannot do.

[Jayhawk Bill]

In fairness to the other shortstops, with the exception of Derek Jeter, Lugo's atrocious year in the field has to be added to the comparison.

 

WARP1

 

Young - 4.0 (TEX)

O. Cabrera - 3.3 (CHA)

Peralta - 2.6 (CLE)

Crosby - 2.0 (OAK)

Aybar - 1.7 (LAA)

Jeter - 0.9 (NYY)

Eckstein - 0.9 (TOR)

Bartlett - 0.8 (TBA)

Renteria - 0.7 (DET)

Lugo - 0.5 (BOS)

Betancourt - 0.1 (SEA)

Bynum - -0.4 (BAL)

Pena Jr. - -1.8 (KCR)

 

According to WARP1, Lugo would be tenth out of the fourteen SS in the AL. The Royals have already replaced Pena Jr. with Mike Aviles, who already has a higher WARP than Lugo.

 

I took the liberty of deleting the NL SS part of your post. The NL is practically a minor league when compared to the AL...excellence there can be misleading.

 

Two points:

 

1) Lugo's defense may be a small-sample aberration. His FRAA is usually better.

 

2) Only the five SS in red are more than a mere half-game better than Lugo, and they'd all be tough to get in a trade.

[CrespoBlows]

 

Two points:

 

1) Lugo's defense may be a small-sample aberration. His FRAA is usually better.

 

He's been below average for three years in a row. He's not this horrible, but he's not a good defender.

 

2) Only the five SS in red are more than a mere half-game better than Lugo, and they'd all be tough to get in a trade.

 

That leaves Jed Lowrie.

[BSN07]

I honestly can say if the Sox traded Manny I would be absolutely shocked:blink:

 

It would honestly have to be a blockbuster, and the other team better be ready to pick up both his option years and talk extension before he waves his no trade rights.

[ksushi]

We could offer the Mets a semi-decent package that would help them now. I would consider Colon an attractive option on the trade market, and he certainly would be that to the Mets, but his status is more than uncertain right now. They have no time table for his return, so July 31st might come and go without Colon taking the mound.

 

Moss/Lowrie/Masterson could do something for them, but I see other teams being able to stomp that. I'm not familiar with Reyes's contract, but if he has a few more years to go, Seattle seems like a good fit. Ownership isn't thrilled with the Bedard trade (and why would they be? it was a fleecing) and could look to spin him. He would have a lot of value to a borderline playoff team in the NL like the Mets. A Betancourt/Bedard/Reed package could bring them Reyes. I think they need somebody new to build their team around out in Seattle. Felix, Beltre, Johjima, Clement and maybe Ichiro are all guys who could be positive contributors a couple years from now. But with the Seattle farm system now in Baltimore, they need to make something happen via trade to bring in one or two more guys who will definitely help them out in the long run.

 

If they could net Pelfrey in a Mets deal they'd be animals.

[CrespoBlows]

We could offer the Mets a semi-decent package that would help them now. I would consider Colon an attractive option on the trade market' date=' and he certainly would be that to the Mets, but his status is more than uncertain right now. They have no time table for his return, so July 31st might come and go without Colon taking the mound.[/quote']

 

Colon is almost ready to throw off the mound. According to Francona, he could throw as early as tomorrow (rotoworld).

 

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=MLB&id=2363

 

He could certainly fetch a decent prospect, but he's nothing more than a throw in for someone like Reyes.

 

Moss/Lowrie/Masterson could do something for them, but I see other teams being able to stomp that. I'm not familiar with Reyes's contract, but if he has a few more years to go, Seattle seems like a good fit. Ownership isn't thrilled with the Bedard trade (and why would they be? it was a fleecing) and could look to spin him. He would have a lot of value to a borderline playoff team in the NL like the Mets. A Betancourt/Bedard/Reed package could bring them Reyes. I think they need somebody new to build their team around out in Seattle. Felix, Beltre, Johjima, Clement and maybe Ichiro are all guys who could be positive contributors a couple years from now. But with the Seattle farm system now in Baltimore, they need to make something happen via trade to bring in one or two more guys who will definitely help them out in the long run.

 

If you think the Mariners are going to land a top three shortstop for one of the worst shortstops, a oft-injured pitcher whose trade value has plummeted, and a fourth outfielder, you are insane.

[Jayhawk Bill]

I honestly can say if the Sox traded Manny I would be absolutely shocked:blink:

 

Me too!

 

It would also shock me were the Mets to trade Reyes. It would take a lot, and Manny is a player Minaya has coveted for years. The Mets have little chance to reach the NLDS, but Manny, plus plugging the hole at SS with Lugo, plus a potential superstar young pitcher, might together make it work out.

 

It would honestly have to be a blockbuster, and the other team better be ready to pick up both his option years and talk extension before he waves his no trade rights.

 

Minaya would have no trouble doing that. If he doesn't win, he's fired; if he's fired, it's not his money anyway.

[Jayhawk Bill]

That leaves Jed Lowrie.

 

Jed Lowrie is available on September 1, regardless of trades.

 

'Til then, if Julio Lugo took one for the team and went on the 15-day DL for the same pesky GI tract parasites that allegedly robbed him of his power a year ago, letting Lowrie get some more MLB time, I'd think well of Julio's...ummm...guts.

[BSN07]

Not sure Reyes is enough to send Manny out of town. maybe if they had a seperate deal in place for Tex or another big bat to take the spot of Mannys. Without manny the only legit power is Ortiz, and we don't know how bad his wrist is going to be.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

I don't know what his contract status is but what would it take for Michael Young in Texas??

 

With all the talent in the minors I think something could get done. Just throwing out some names but...

 

Michael Bowden and Jed Lowrie for Michael Young?? Throw in Daniel Bard perhaps??

[Jayhawk Bill]

Not sure Reyes is enough to send Manny out of town. maybe if they had a seperate deal in place for Tex or another big bat to take the spot of Mannys. Without manny the only legit power is Ortiz' date=' and we don't know how bad his wrist is going to be.[/quote']

 

If Big Papi weren't healthy, this simply wouldn't happen. If he is...well, Boston can't use two Designated Hitters, and Big Papi's contract runs longer.

[BSN07]

Don't know the exact figures but I think he signed a 5 yr 80M deal last season. He got the extension and Tex got sent out of town. Young would be nice but it would take a sweet deal to net him. The Sox would have to eat Lugo salary and release him or find some way to trade him. No way both stay on the team at the same time.

[CrespoBlows]

I don't know what his contract status is but what would it take for Michael Young in Texas??

 

With all the talent in the minors I think something could get done. Just throwing out some names but...

 

Michael Bowden and Jed Lowrie for Michael Young?? Throw in Daniel Bard perhaps??

 

That's too much for Young.

[ksushi]

Colon is almost ready to throw off the mound. According to Francona, he could throw as early as tomorrow (rotoworld).

 

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=MLB&id=2363

 

He could certainly fetch a decent prospect, but he's nothing more than a throw in for someone like Reyes.

 

 

 

If you think the Mariners are going to land a top three shortstop for one of the worst shortstops, a oft-injured pitcher whose trade value has plummeted, and a fourth outfielder, you are insane.

 

 

I never claimed Colon could bring in a guy like Reyes on his own. He could certainly add to good package. If you don't think there is any value in a guy like Colon to a team attempting make the playoffs then you, sir, are insane as well.

 

And I bet a great deal of people around baseball thought that there was no way Theo would move Nomar for Cabrera and a back up first basemen, but he did and it was the move of the century. If I were Omar I would jump at that deal. Say what you want about Bedard, but hes a crafty pitcher and one of the smartests hurlers in the league. His injury history is a little off-putting, sure but if I were the Mets, a gamble on a top-flight starter is a gamble I'd be willing to take. Betancourt is an outstanding defender that could play short for my team any time. As I said before, if you think Omar is heavily invested in the Mets future, you're dead wrong. He is invested in keeping his job and that means making the playoffs this year. I think they are more likely to be in the playoffs if they add more defense (Reed and Betencourt) and shore up the rotation.

 

And as for Reyes being a "top three" shortstop, I don't know if that is so clear cut. He is a poor defender at a demanding defensive position. His OBP is .350ish right now and with his best attribute being his speed, you'd figure him a fit for the lead off spot, but I don't think he gets on-base enough to have a big impact there. For my money I would prefer Hardy, Ramirez, Tulo, Jeter, Theriot. For the long haul, I would prefer Drew as well.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Don't know the exact figures but I think he signed a 5 yr 80M deal last season. He got the extension and Tex got sent out of town. Young would be nice but it would take a sweet deal to net him. The Sox would have to eat Lugo salary and release him or find some way to trade him. No way both stay on the team at the same time.

 

I'm not worried about what would happen to Lugo. If we had to eat the salary and release him or use him as a bench player.....whatever I'm cool with it as long as he's not starting on a consistent basis.

 

I believe Michael Young is 32 years old and I think he could continue to be productive. Based on his age and the surrounding components in Texas (mostly young players) I don't know if it's crazy to think the Red Sox could make something happen. Honestly I don't think Texas would completeley dismiss the Red Sox if they approached them with Michael Bowden and Jed Lowrie....maybe they wouldn't.....I don't know but CC Sabathia was just traded for Matt LaPorta so I have no concept of actual value anymore.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

That's too much for Young.

 

If Michael Bowden and Jed Lowrie are too much for Michael Young then we should be all over Texas.

 

Jacoby Ellsbury

Dustin Pedroia

David Ortiz

Manny Ramirez

Mike Lowell

JD Drew

Kevin Youkilis

Michael Young

Jason Varitek

 

.....big upgrade over Julio Lugo and Jason Varitek can sit in the 9 hole now.

[ksushi]

So we should move a potential future #1 or #2 starter (and the current youngest player in AA, I believe) and a very solid offensive shortstop just so you don't have to see Lugo's face? So basically, we're looking at a knee jerk reaction trade to get a guy who is equally questionable on defense, gets on-base less, but slugs a little better and in the process export some of our most promising prospects.

 

Brilliant! (for Texas)