Hank: Joba needs to start now

[VA Sox Fan]

Not a fan of Hawk Harrelson as an announcer. Go White Sox though.

[a700hitter]

Cheez, I dunno.

 

In 2005, the Marlins went 83-79 under Jack McKeon, a good manager. After that year, they traded away or let go two extraordinarily good pitchers (AJ Burnett and Josh Beckett), their closer (Todd Jones, 2.10 ERA, 40 saves), their set-up man (Guillermo Mota), their All Star catcher (Paul Lo Duca), their MVP candidate (Carlos Delgado, 6th that year), their MVP candidates the two previous years (Juan Pierre and Mike Lowell), their All Star second baseman (Luis Castillo) and, FWIW, two of their three other starting position players (Juan Encarnacion and Alex Gonzalez). They invested nothing in free agents to fill the vacuum: Brian Moehler was the second-highest-paid player on the 2006 roster at $1.5 million.

 

Let's Check WARP1:

 

Beckett: 6.7

Burnett 6.0

Castillo 5.2

Delgado 7.4

Encarnacion 3.5

Gonzalez 1.6

Jones 7.1

Lowell 2.4

Mota 1.3

Pierre 2.8

 

Total 45.0 wins

 

Despite losing the 45-odd wins represented by the players I listed above, Joe Girardi came in and, in his rookie year as a manager, he brought the Marlins to a 78-84 record, second only to the 97-win Mets in the NL East as late as September 12th, only five games back of the 2005 team which had fifteen million-dollar-salary players despite having only two million-dollar players left.

 

I remain impressed with Girardi's 2006 results, and I see nothing in his 2008 record thus far to convince me that he's not an excellent manager. Of course, YMMV.

 

Edit: Left off Lo Duca...heck, you get the point.

...and they added Hanley Ramirez, Dan Uggla and Josh Willingham as every day players and he managed to finish with the 8 th best record of 16 teams 19 games out of first place.

Drop Beckett from your list above, and I would consider trading the rest of them to get these three.

[26 to 6]

...and they added Hanley Ramirez, Dan Uggla and Josh Willingham as every day players and he managed to finish with the 8 th best record of 16 teams 19 games out of first place.

Drop Beckett from your list above, and I would consider trading the rest of them to get these three.

They were still rookies though. And Uggla was a Rule 5 pick. Inexperience and uncertainty play a factor (just look at the Yankee pitching this year). He did a damn good job that year. Appearantly I'm not alone, just ask the BBWAA.

[a700hitter]

They were still rookies though. And Uggla was a Rule 5 pick. Inexperience and uncertainty play a factor (just look at the Yankee pitching this year). He did a damn good job that year. Appearantly I'm not alone' date=' just ask the BBWAA.[/quote']...and Girardi had absolutely nothing to do with their development. They were just as good if not better the following year.

 

As for the BBWAA, they have gotten a number of things wrong throughout the years.

[26 to 6]

As for the BBWAA, they have gotten a number of things wrong throughout the years.

Amen. Most notably for me, the one that still irks the s*** out of me is Palmeiro winning that 1997 gold glove after playing n only 14 GAMES at first base, while Tino Martinez, the deserving winner got screwed.

[Mr Crunchy]

i dont think joe will be able to stand the shitstorm that fredo and the ny media in general are going to throw his way.

the yanks have 2 rookies who may or may not make it big time,a ruined mike mussina and then wang tung and petitte to round out their rotation.

3 out of 5 arent capable.

now hughes and kennedy may progress enough to help down the road but mussina is done and i cant see fredo sitting back and watching these kids get killed between now and the allstar game as growing pains are going to occur,it seems every pitcher has to go thru some shaky efforts before he can be consistant

every pitcher with the exceptions of Joba and Paps it seems.

[Jayhawk Bill]

...and they added Hanley Ramirez, Dan Uggla and Josh Willingham as every day players and he managed to finish with the 8 th best record of 16 teams 19 games out of first place.

Drop Beckett from your list above, and I would consider trading the rest of them to get these three.

 

You might consider it, but it would've been a bad trade.

 

We're in the odd situation where 26 to 6 and I are in agreement. Rather than my "going stats" on you, I'd ask that we share respect for our differing opinions, lest I be forced to support a Yankees fan any further.

[Mr Crunchy]

lest I be forced to support a Yankees fan any further.

 

come on man,get it together,dont you be blashpeming in here

[BudLight]

Last night was a prime example of why Hank needs to shut up! Joba not available last night and Latroy Hawkins comes in in the 8th and tries to give it away. Until the Yanks have a dominant 8th inning pitcher, leave things as they are. This could be an every night occurance if Joba were removed from the pen.

[jacksonianmarch]

Chamberlain is a starter. This is how Cashman sees it and it is the right way to think.

 

We've been over this before. In order for Joba to A. be a starter at the end of the yr and B. beat his innings limit, we need to start the transition June 1.

 

Also, having Joba out there now gives us a shot to decipher which pitchers are useful and which are useless. As of right now, the 2 vets (Farns and Hawkins) have allowed 17ER in 19IP. The younger guys like Bruney and Ohlendorf have been very solid. By the time Joba hits the bush leagues to build up his arm, one of the above will step up and do a serviceable job as the 8th inning guy.

[26 to 6]

I know I've seen them before, but off the top of my head I can't think of them, nor can I find them. Does anyone know what the inning limits are for Joba, Phil, and IPK?

[Mr Crunchy]

limits?

so far hughes and kennedy have been limited because they got the s*** kicked out of them each start

dont worry about limits

they wont see the 7th inning this year

finally chamberlain got beat

for a while there i thought he was another 10-0 aaron small

[SCM33]

limits?

so far hughes and kennedy have been limited because they got the s*** kicked out of them each start

dont worry about limits

they wont see the 7th inning this year

finally chamberlain got beat

for a while there i thought he was another 10-0 aaron small

 

Thats not fair! Comparing Chamberlain to aaron small.

[a700hitter]

I am curious. How did Yankee fans feel about the following decisions last night by Girardi:

 

1. His decision not to return Hughes to the mound after the rain delay, despite the shortage in the pen with Bruney's injury and that Hughes had been pitching well.

 

2. Pitching Joba for 2 innings when the Yankees were not ahead and on the road.

 

3. Pitching to Joe Crede, one of the hottest RH hitters in this young season, with the winning run on second, one out and an open first base. The guy on deck was a very, very light hitting IF.

 

Another Girardi decision: How do you feel about banning candy from the Yankee clubhouse? What next... A ban on beer?

 

Are you starting to see why I think Girardi is a boob.

[SCM33]

I am curious. I did Yankee fans feel about the following decisions last night by Girardi:

 

1. His decision not to return Hughes to the mound after the rain delay, despite the shortage in the pen with Bruney's injury and that Hughes had been pitching well.

 

2. Pitching Joba for 2 innings when the Yankees were not ahead and on the road.

 

3. Pitching to Joe Crede, one of the hottest RH hitters in this young season, with the winning run on second, one out and an open first base. The guy on deck was a very, very light hitting IF.

 

Another Girardi decision: How do you feel about banning candy from the Yankee clubhouse? What next... A ban on beer?

 

Are you starting to see why I think Girardi is a boob.

 

I dont question him pitching to Crede, I think Joba has the ability to get him out. Yankee fans always compare him to Papelbon, and I dont see Paps pitching around anyone.

 

I love the fact that Giardi is the manager, for the fact that I think Torre was all that much better......I think the Yankees dropped the ball on this one....

[26 to 6]

I am curious. I did Yankee fans feel about the following decisions last night by Girardi:

 

1. His decision not to return Hughes to the mound after the rain delay, despite the shortage in the pen with Bruney's injury and that Hughes had been pitching well.

 

2. Pitching Joba for 2 innings when the Yankees were not ahead and on the road.

 

3. Pitching to Joe Crede, one of the hottest RH hitters in this young season, with the winning run on second, one out and an open first base. The guy on deck was a very, very light hitting IF.

 

Another Girardi decision: How do you feel about banning candy from the Yankee clubhouse? What next... A ban on beer?

 

Are you starting to see why I think Girardi is a boob.

I was a little annoyed that Phil didn't come back out, but I see it as more of an organizational thing as the organization has been very conservative with the young pitchers, especially Phil since he signed back in 2004. I can't get in an uproar that they didnt bring him out after 2 delayd totaling just under an hour. I think he could have done it though. All that means is that with the thin bullpen he may be available today or tomorrow for possibly a few innings in relief, which we could use.

 

I had no problem pitching Joba pitching going out there for both the 8th and the 9th (totaling only 1.1 innings of work though). The game was in reach and on the line and in situations like that you go with your big gun.

 

When Crede came up I was thinking that they could walk him, but he's a guy Joba can go right after and more times than not probably get out. Didn't work out last night unfortunately. But I can't complain too much.

 

All of these are perfect second guess instances that could have gone either way. If Joba retires Crede and then Ramirez and we win the game in extras this isn't even a conversation. Sometimes a manager has to take chances. If they work out, great; you get a win. If not, you're going to be second guessed. I think he was on the ball though.

[a700hitter]

I dont question him pitching to Crede' date=' I think Joba has the ability to get him out. Yankee fans always compare him to Papelbon, and I dont see Paps pitching around anyone.[/quote']

Whether Papelbon would have pitched to Crede doesn't make last night's decision a sound one. Girardi and his coaches spend countless hours studying hitting charts and other stats looking for tendencies that might give them an advantage in the game. This decision took no research. Crede is hot. The winning run was on 2nd. First base was open. The two prior batters had hit the ball very hard. The next batter was a .167 Hitter with a .200 OBP. It was clearly a poor strategic decision to let Joba pitch to Crede. It went completely against the probabilities. Papelbon should'nt pitch to him eitherin that situation.

[a700hitter]

I was a little annoyed that Phil didn't come back out, but I see it as more of an organizational thing as the organization has been very conservative with the young pitchers, especially Phil since he signed back in 2004. I can't get in an uproar that they didnt bring him out after 2 delayd totaling just under an hour. I think he could have done it though. All that means is that with the thin bullpen he may be available today or tomorrow for possibly a few innings in relief, which we could use.

 

I had no problem pitching Joba pitching going out there for both the 8th and the 9th (totaling only 1.1 innings of work though). The game was in reach and on the line and in situations like that you go with your big gun.

 

When Crede came up I was thinking that they could walk him, but he's a guy Joba can go right after and more times than not probably get out. Didn't work out last night unfortunately. But I can't complain too much.

 

All of these are perfect second guess instances that could have gone either way. If Joba retires Crede and then Ramirez and we win the game in extras this isn't even a conversation. Sometimes a manager has to take chances. If they work out, great; you get a win. If not, you're going to be second guessed. I think he was on the ball though.

Are you also in favor of the candy ban?

[ORS]

But I can't complain too much.

No offense, but this is a water is wet statement for you and everything Yankee. I've never seen you critical of anything related to that team.

[BudLight]

I am curious. How did Yankee fans feel about the following decisions last night by Girardi:

 

1. His decision not to return Hughes to the mound after the rain delay, despite the shortage in the pen with Bruney's injury and that Hughes had been pitching well.

 

2. Pitching Joba for 2 innings when the Yankees were not ahead and on the road.

 

3. Pitching to Joe Crede, one of the hottest RH hitters in this young season, with the winning run on second, one out and an open first base. The guy on deck was a very, very light hitting IF.

 

Another Girardi decision: How do you feel about banning candy from the Yankee clubhouse? What next... A ban on beer?

 

Are you starting to see why I think Girardi is a boob.

 

His decision to not return Hughes to the mound was fine. It was the second rain delay of the night. The first resulted in the game starting over 30 minutes late.

 

As for Joba, who else would you pitch in that situation? Farnsworth had already been used, Hawkins and Ohlendorf had already been used, Bruney was not available. Why not pitch to Joe Crede in April - if it was September, same situation and the race for the penant was close, maybe you walk or pitch around him, but not in April.

 

Who is Candy??

[ORS]

I think you absolutely walk Crede there. Crede's OPS was at .920+, the guy on deck was .450. Furthermore, Ramirez GB rate is 58% this year to Crede's 32%. You walk Crede there every month of the year.

[Mr Crunchy]

its april

joe girardi thought he would be on his honeymoon but instead he discovered his new bride had a set of hairy balls and a dick poking him in the ass every time he bends over.

 

damn if feels good to be a sox fan despite the 2 straight losses

[26 to 6]

No offense' date=' but this is a water is wet statement for you and everything Yankee. I've never seen you critical of anything related to that team.[/quote']

Then you have a selective memory. Every offseason I go on a rant filled with criticism, throughout the year I'll express frustration for things that I don't agree with. You just choose to focus on the fact that I prefer to support my team in most cases.

 

damn if feels good to be a sox fan despite the 2 straight losses

Thats the sad part.It irritates the s*** out of me that since forever Sox fans get mroe enjoyment out of the Yankees losing than anything else. Rather than be frustrated by two straight losses you're gleaming over a Yankee loss last night.

 

Are you also in favor of the candy ban?

Now you're just being silly. Do you really expect me to get into this? Who cares. It has no effect on me, only the players. If they want candy they can get it themselves, they're not confined to the clubhouse 24/7, 365. It's a non-issue for me. If the manager wants to put rules in place for his players, why is it necessarily a bad thing and who am I to question it? Do I think it's a little ridiculous, yeah sure, but I'm not going to get in an uproar over it. So what, he had ice cream machines removed and doesn't allow candy. Who cares. If those things were proven help the players play better then yeah, you can get me to bite on the topic, but they don't, so WHO CARES!? Now you're just being petty.

[26 to 6]

I think you absolutely walk Crede there. Crede's OPS was at .920+' date=' the guy on deck was .450. Furthermore, Ramirez GB rate is 58% this year to Crede's 32%. You walk Crede there every month of the year.[/quote']

And nobody's saying s*** if Crede is retired in that spot. It's not that big of a deal, he chose to go right after a guy than walk him, oh no!! That's why being a Major League manager is one of the hardest things to do. You can't always rely on numbers, and sometimes you have to go with intuition and what you're gut tells you to. It's easy to second-guess.

 

What if he walks Crede, strikes out Alexei, and then Swisher comes up and hits one into the gap, then what are you saying? People will always find something to bitch about and be critical towards. In the late innings this year at home (this sounds so ridiculous, which is why I prefer to NOT be a stat geek) Swisher is hitting .500 with a .500 OBP. So what if? What do you say there? Should he walk him too?

[BudLight]

And nobody's saying s*** if Crede is retired in that spot. It's not that big of a deal' date=' [b']he chose to go right after a guy than walk him[/b], oh no!! That's why being a Major League manager is one of the hardest things to do. You can't always rely on numbers, and sometimes you have to go with intuition and what you're gut tells you to. It's easy to second-guess.

 

What if he walks Crede, strikes out Alexei, and then Swisher comes up and hits one into the gap, then what are you saying? People will always find something to bitch about and be critical towards. In the late innings this year at home (this sounds so ridiculous, which is why I prefer to NOT be a stat geek) Swisher is hitting .500 with a .500 OBP. So what if? What do you say there? Should he walk him too?

 

FWIW - I believe it was a curveball that Crede hit. I wouldn't call that going right after him when Joba has the ability to hit triple digits on the gun.

[Jayhawk Bill]

I was a little annoyed that Phil didn't come back out, but I see it as more of an organizational thing as the organization has been very conservative with the young pitchers, especially Phil since he signed back in 2004. I can't get in an uproar that they didnt bring him out after 2 delayd totaling just under an hour. I think he could have done it though. All that means is that with the thin bullpen he may be available today or tomorrow for possibly a few innings in relief, which we could use.

 

I had no problem pitching Joba pitching going out there for both the 8th and the 9th (totaling only 1.1 innings of work though). The game was in reach and on the line and in situations like that you go with your big gun.

 

No issue with those perspectives.

 

When Crede came up I was thinking that they could walk him, but he's a guy Joba can go right after and more times than not probably get out. Didn't work out last night unfortunately. But I can't complain too much.

 

Except that you probably should.

 

Set aside that Crede is hot: use career stats, and give Ramirez credit for being roughly as good a batter as Crede, and it still looks bad. With one out, filling first base was critical, because the runner was meaningless except for creating a double play situation. The potential double play diminished the chance that Chamberlain would have to retire two more batters. Pitching to Crede guaranteed that at least two hitters would have to be retired, barring baserunner error.

 

All of these are perfect second guess instances that could have gone either way. If Joba retires Crede and then Ramirez and we win the game in extras this isn't even a conversation. Sometimes a manager has to take chances. If they work out, great; you get a win. If not, you're going to be second guessed. I think he was on the ball though.

 

I'm not even addressing the outcome; I'm addressing probabilities. Girardi screwed up.

 

Furthermore, if you want a manager who "takes chances," you should be pissed that Torre or Mattingly aren't managing, saying, "Well, gee, I had faith in Joba to get him out, and I'm gonna have faith next time, cuz Joba's a good guy." Joe Girardi is accurate, intelligent, demanding and ruthless. He scores negative "nice guy points," but he wins because he makes the right calls.

 

This time he didn't. Pitching to Crede was a bad call. It's indefensible from a logical perspective. Girardi was wrong.

 

I respect Girardi as a rule, even if I hate the Yankees, but I can't support his decision here.

[26 to 6]

FWIW - I believe it was a curveball that Crede hit. I wouldn't call that going right after him when Joba has the ability to hit triple digits on the gun.

A) Not that it makes much difference, but his fastball was topping out at 95 last night

 

B ) You can't throw a fastball EVERY SINGLE PITCH of an at-bat, are you kidding me?

[26 to 6]

No issue with those perspectives.

 

 

 

Except that you probably should.

 

Set aside that Crede is hot: use career stats, and give Ramirez credit for being roughly as good a batter as Crede, and it still looks bad. With one out, filling first base was critical, because the runner was meaningless except for creating a double play situation. The potential double play diminished the chance that Chamberlain would have to retire two more batters. Pitching to Crede guaranteed that at least two hitters would have to be retired, barring baserunner error.

 

 

 

I'm not even addressing the outcome; I'm addressing probabilities. Girardi screwed up.

 

Furthermore, if you want a manager who "takes chances," you should be pissed that Torre or Mattingly aren't managing, saying, "Well, gee, I had faith in Joba to get him out, and I'm gonna have faith next time, cuz Joba's a good guy." Joe Girardi is accurate, intelligent, demanding and ruthless. He scores negative "nice guy points," but he wins because he makes the right calls.

 

This time he didn't. Pitching to Crede was a bad call. It's indefensible from a logical perspective. Girardi was wrong.

 

I respect Girardi as a rule, even if I hate the Yankees, but I can't support his decision here.

Look, I see all of your points, but I'm not going to get in an uproar because of a loss that got away from us in April. We took 2 of 3 from the White Sox, which is all you can ask. Yeah, he maybe shoulkd have walked him, the exact same things went throughmymind when Crede came to the plate, but I'm not gonna argue when a guy as dominant and explosive as Joba Chamberlain chooses to go after a guy. This is only his FIRST big league loss. Logically, you can't expect him to go his whole career without a loss, and now that he finally gets one people, not even Yankee fans, are going crazy over the managerial decisions. It's JOBA CHAMBERLAIN people! If Kyle Farnsworth or LaTroy Hawkins are on the mound, and he doesn't get walked I would go crazy, but that was not the case. We had the BEST reliever in the game since last August (You Sox fans can try to argue this, but to no avail. He has been simply the BEST) on the mound, and he wanted to go after him. So what. You win some, you lose some. With Joba you win more than you lose. Now we move on to Cleveland.

[ORS]

And nobody's saying s*** if Crede is retired in that spot. It's not that big of a deal, he chose to go right after a guy than walk him, oh no!! That's why being a Major League manager is one of the hardest things to do. You can't always rely on numbers, and sometimes you have to go with intuition and what you're gut tells you to. It's easy to second-guess.

 

What if he walks Crede, strikes out Alexei, and then Swisher comes up and hits one into the gap, then what are you saying? People will always find something to bitch about and be critical towards. In the late innings this year at home (this sounds so ridiculous, which is why I prefer to NOT be a stat geek) Swisher is hitting .500 with a .500 OBP. So what if? What do you say there? Should he walk him too?

It's not going out of the way to find something to complain about. Disregard the result and think about it with a dash of baseball acumen. He elected to pitch to the team's hottest hitter in a tie game in the 9th inning on the road with a runner in scoring position and first base open with a light hitting groundball machine on deck. You IBB the hot hitter 100 times out of 100 there. Hell, when you consider how they are hitting right now, you even do it if Swisher was on deck, which tells you how my reaction would be to your hypothetical there at the end. Walking Crede was the move. Joe didn't make it.

 

EDIT: Since you brought up close and late and all, more reasons why.....

 

Alexei Ramirez - 3 GIDP in 25 PA

 

Crede - .444/.545/1.555 Close and Late going into that AB, .444/.476/.777 with RISP

[BudLight]

A) Not that it makes much difference, but his fastball was topping out at 95 last night

 

B ) You can't throw a fastball EVERY SINGLE PITCH of an at-bat, are you kidding me?

 

 

You are the one that used the term "going right after him", in other words using his best stuff. His curveball is not his "best" stuff, his fastball is his best stuff.