Daniel Bard

[Dojji]

Not too worried about a few walks. Guy's a rook. I'd be more surprised if he wasn't walking people.

 

As long as he can throw a strike when he really needs one, a bit of "effective wildness" helps a power pitcher.

[BoSox21]

soon enough, he's gonna get to the point where hitters have made adjustments to him. ill temper my opinion on Bard once I see how he counteracts those adjustments

[Dipre]

soon enough' date=' he's gonna get to the point where hitters have made adjustments to him. ill temper my opinion on Bard once I see how he counteracts those adjustments[/quote']

 

He has the stuff and the attitude to adjust though.

[BoSox21]

Yea, he has fantastic stuff but where are these claims that he has a great attitude coming from? he may for all I know but he hasn't really faced any adversity I guess since he really turned it on in the minors last season. But I've always believed that the biggest challenge a young pitcher faces is how they deal with the fact that opposing hitters start to read the book on him. Don't get me wrong though, I'm playing devil's advocate more than anything here and I'm very optimistic about his ability to become a dominant reliever. Just trying to keep a little reality here.

[Dipre]

Yea' date=' he has fantastic stuff but where are these claims that he has a great attitude coming from? he may for all I know but he hasn't really faced any adversity I guess since he really turned it on in the minors last season. But I've always believed that the biggest challenge a young pitcher faces is how they deal with the fact that opposing hitters start to read the book on him.[/quote']

 

The "attitude" i refer to comes mostly from literature, of course.

 

But from what i've seen from the kid, and this is just an opinion, he looks very collected in the mound, and cold blood is important for any reliever, not just closers.

[Dojji]

he also bounced back nicely from being screwed over by his team when we tweaked his delivery in '07 and nearly made a Greinke level headcase out of him.

[BoSox21]

But from what i've seen from the kid, and this is just an opinion, he looks very collected in the mound, and cold blood is important for any reliever, not just closers.

 

Fine but up until very recently, he's only pitched garbage time innings

[Dojji]

How recently is "very recently" to you? I mean, the kid has a save from back in June.

[BoSox21]

How recently is "very recently" to you? I mean' date=' the kid has a save from back in June.[/quote']

 

he was the last guy out in a 13-inning game that Paps wasnt available in...

[TheKilo]

I believe Daniel Bard has proved he is a better reliever than Justin Masterson. Clay Buchholz has more upside and is ready to explode in a starter role. Now the question is what to do with Masterson?

 

I think he is too good as a long-reliever type but not sure he is good enough to be in the Red Sox rotation. I wonder what he could net the Sox in a trade this offseason?

 

SSS

[Dipre]

SSS

 

Funny.

 

You just disrespected your own sig.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

The reason is simple, Bard's mechanics are nearly flawless.

 

His delivery is easy and repeatable, and his arm slot easy to find, helping him maintain his stuff better when he's tired, if he had a high-maintenance delivery like Joba, he might throw 103.

 

It's important to remember this comment for one simple reason: sometimes the minor league stats don't tell the whole story.

 

Back when Bard was getting destroyed in A-ball some chose to believe his mechanics were a mess. It takes time for some players to have their mechanics broken down and re-established. Had Daniel Bard continued to pitch in A-ball the way he did in college you would probably have seen more respectable numbers. However, by changing his arm slot he has developed the slider he required to get MLB-caliber players out. He was never able to get the changeup needed to be a starter but thats alright...not everyone was meant to be a starter.

 

Sometimes you need to step back before you step forward.

[Dipre]

It's important to remember this comment for one simple reason: sometimes the minor league stats don't tell the whole story.

 

Back when Bard was getting destroyed in A-ball some chose to believe his mechanics were a mess. It takes time for some players to have their mechanics broken down and re-established. Had Daniel Bard continued to pitch in A-ball the way he did in college you would probably have seen more respectable numbers. However, by changing his arm slot he has developed the slider he required to get MLB-caliber players out. He was never able to get the changeup needed to be a starter but thats alright...not everyone was meant to be a starter.

 

Sometimes you need to step back before you step forward.

 

Bard's mechanics as a whole were always solid, what they tinkered with was the arm slot, and there's nothing more difficult for a pitcher than adopting a new arm slot.

[Dutchy]

well' date=' last yr Joba was hurt and was yo-yo'd between starting and relieving. Here's the thing. Joba is still new to this role and he's going to get better. Bard cannot start. The sox have learned that lesson with his embarassing debut in low A where he got hit hard and walked 9-10 per 9IP. I will assure you that Joba in the pen would be more dominant than Bard. That being said, watching Bard is frustrating, cause I know he's gonna be a pain in the yanks asses for a long time[/quote']

 

Joba's never been more dominant than Bard in the majors, in the pen or as a starter. And don't try to argue me with ERA, you make fun of other posters when they use ERA to prove you wrong.

[jacksonianmarch]

Joba's never been more dominant than Bard in the majors' date=' in the pen or as a starter. And don't try to argue me with ERA, you make fun of other posters when they use ERA to prove you wrong.[/quote']

 

 

Joba

2007- 19G 24IP 12H 1ER 34K 6BB

 

Bard

2009- 21G 26IP 17H 7ER 32K 10BB

 

Are you sick of being proven wrong? Joba had the lower ERA (0.38 to 2.42), the lower WHIP (0.75 to 1.04), the higher K/9 (12.8 to 11.1), the higher K/BB (5.6 to 3.2), and the lower BB/9IP (2.3 to 3.4).

[BSN07]

Joba's never been more dominant than Bard in the majors' date=' in the pen or as a starter. And don't try to argue me with ERA, you make fun of other posters when they use ERA to prove you wrong.[/quote']

 

Joba's 2007 tour out of the pen was disgusting. It was a mirror image of Papelbon's debut. Either you didn't watch him, or your just trying to bait Jacko.

 

Joba was lights out out of the pen for those couple months. To deny this is plainly absurd.

 

Me personally, if given the choice I would have Joba in the set up role, and waiting to take over for Mo. Albeit I see the argument for him as a SP as well.

[BoSox21]

very very difficult to argue that Bard is better than Joba ever was....difficult because its untrue

[Dojji]

That said, Joba got incredibly lucky in '07 as well as putting up dominating numbers.

 

.246 BABIP? 96.6% LOB? These numbers make Joba look hella better than he really was that year. And don't try to tell me that that was excellent Yankees' defense. Chamberlain's 2007 debut was a flat out statistical fluke, the only numbers he claims full marks for that year are his K/bb rates./

[BSN07]

That said, Joba got incredibly lucky in '07 as well as putting up dominating numbers.

 

.246 BABIP? 96.6% LOB? These numbers make Joba look hella better than he really was that year. And don't try to tell me that that was excellent Yankees' defense. Chamberlain's 2007 debut was a flat out statistical fluke, the only numbers he claims full marks for that year are his K/bb rates./

 

His ability to K batters at almost will bailed him out of some sticky situations.

[Dojji]

At a rate that is unsustainable even for the most dominant pitchers.

 

I'm not saying there wasn't a good performance behind it but those numbers are not just the result of good performance.

[BoSox21]

why exactly is BABIP always attributed to luck? I understand Joba is a strikeout pitcher but good pitchers are expected to have the ability to avoid the sweet spot of the bat and force weak grounders or shallow flies as well.

[Dipre]

why exactly is BABIP always attributed to luck? I understand Joba is a strikeout pitcher but good pitchers are expected to have the ability to avoid the sweet spot of the bat and force weak grounders or shallow flies as well.

 

Still, there's only so much "avoiding the sweet spot" will counteract.

 

There's a league average for BABIP, i'll give you that, meaning that both sucky and good pitchers are included.

 

However, anything under .250 is cheer luck, because in Pedro's 1999 season, he had a .270+ BABIP, and he was a hell of a pitcher, so yes, BABIP has quite a measure of luck to it, and it can make or break a pitcher's season if it doesn't even out.

[Dojji]

why exactly is BABIP always attributed to luck? I understand Joba is a strikeout pitcher but good pitchers are expected to have the ability to avoid the sweet spot of the bat and force weak grounders or shallow flies as well.

 

To what DipreG said, I'd just like to add that defense is a factor in BABIP, since it's basically 1-DER. The variability and difficulty in predicting and projecting defense is a large part of the supposed "luck" factor.

 

But this is pretty clear cut luck. The Yankee defense is NOT good enough that even if we get a steady diet of cheap flies and ground balls, they'll haul more than three quarters of them in. There just isn't the range on that team for that level of performance to be reasonable, especially when Chien Ming Wang's ERA as a pitcher whose whole identity was built around weak contact, sports a .290 median BABIP.

[diony]

That said, Joba got incredibly lucky in '07 as well as putting up dominating numbers.

 

.246 BABIP? 96.6% LOB? These numbers make Joba look hella better than he really was that year. And don't try to tell me that that was excellent Yankees' defense. Chamberlain's 2007 debut was a flat out statistical fluke, the only numbers he claims full marks for that year are his K/bb rates./

 

He had a 0.38 ERA, what did you expect?

[jacksonianmarch]

his peripherals outside of the ERA were ridiculous as well.

[Dojji]

his peripherals outside of the ERA were ridiculous as well.

 

Sure, not arguing that, but the point stands that there's a huge luck factor to Joba's 2007 performance.