Daniel Bard

[Cocos Disciples]

I think he's a very nice long/middle reliever if not traded.

[Dipre]

The real awesome thing about Bard is how effortless that delivery looks.

 

And in all seriousness, that 88-89 MPH slider after a 99 MPH FB should be illegal in some states.

[example1]

I believe Daniel Bard has proved he is a better reliever than Justin Masterson. Clay Buchholz has more upside and is ready to explode in a starter role. Now the question is what to do with Masterson?

 

I think he is too good as a long-reliever type but not sure he is good enough to be in the Red Sox rotation. I wonder what he could net the Sox in a trade this offseason?

 

I brought this up in another thread. Masterson might be the easiest piece to trade because he has more value to other teams than he seems to for the Red Sox.

 

Also, I'm starting to think that not only is Daniel Bard > Justin Masterson, but Daniel Bard > Joba Chamberlain. His stuff is better and his role is more defined. If Chamberlain pulls it together as a starting pitcher then that will change, but nobody questions that Bard is a setup man and his role will not change.

 

The Yankees pitching woes have really f***ed Joba's role up. Hughes in the 'pen, Joba struggling as a starter? What?

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

I brought this up in another thread. Masterson might be the easiest piece to trade because he has more value to other teams than he seems to for the Red Sox.

 

Also, I'm starting to think that not only is Daniel Bard > Justin Masterson, but Daniel Bard > Joba Chamberlain. His stuff is better and his role is more defined. If Chamberlain pulls it together as a starting pitcher then that will change, but nobody questions that Bard is a setup man and his role will not change.

 

The Yankees pitching woes have really f***ed Joba's role up. Hughes in the 'pen, Joba struggling as a starter? What?

 

As relievers I don't think you can go wrong either way with Joba or Bard. Just as Joba has struggled in the rotation so would Bard. Both have high velocity fastballs but not enough movement. Both have excellent breaking balls but they lack that third pitch which they both require as starters. If either had a changeup we would be talking about Justin Verlander type starters.

 

I still think Justin Masterson could be a strong starting pitcher but whether he becomes Brandon Webb or Fausto Carmona is yet to be seen.

[example1]

As relievers I don't think you can go wrong either way with Joba or Bard. Just as Joba has struggled in the rotation so would Bard. Both have high velocity fastballs but not enough movement. Both have excellent breaking balls but they lack that third pitch which they both require as starters. If either had a changeup we would be talking about Justin Verlander type starters.

 

I still think Justin Masterson could be a strong starting pitcher but whether he becomes Brandon Webb or Fausto Carmona is yet to be seen.

 

I agree about Masterson, but I don't think he'll have the chance to find out about his SP potential in Boston.

 

In terms of Joba, last year he had an average fastball velocity of 95 mph; This year it is down to 92.4.

 

(http://www.fangraphs.com/winss.aspx?team=Yankees&pos=all&stats=pit&qual=0&type=4&season=2008&month=0)

 

Some may argue that he's trying to stretch himself out or save his arm, but just about every number looks worse for him this year. If that's his strategy it isn't working. His K/9, K/BB, ERA, FIP, LOB%, AVG, WHIP have all become noticably worse.

 

In my opinion, Joba should be in the pen. I think the Yankees struggled with that decision and chose poorly; compared to the Sox decision about Papelbon (virtually the same decision) it was a pretty bad one, though logical. To put it another way, I'm glad the Sox ended up making the right choice with Papelbon.

 

With Bard, the decision seems like an easy one. In terms of motion and stuff he reminds me a lot of Joe Nathan with better velocity. They both rely on FB/SL and they both have a big frame and a really easy motion. Let's hope he looks that way in a few years... if he does then the Sox will have struck gold again through the draft.

[jacksonianmarch]

I think the tendonitis scared Joba and showed him that throwing every pitch full force is a bad idea. I think Joba is trying to be a guy who throws 92-93 consistently with the occasional 97-98mph fastball as needed. What he is seeing, though, is that he has to be a lot more fine with the 92-93 than he did with the 97-98. When he was in the pen, he got the 98mph heat close to the location and he dominated. Now, the 92mph heat close to the location is getting fouled off. This causes longer counts, increased tiredness and an increased likelihood of a walk or a mistake. He'll get there. Either he will gain more endurance and arm strength through this yr causing him to be able to elevate the heater further on into his career, or he will develop some improved control. As much as some like to think it is, this is not a lost yr for Joba. This is a learning opportunity for him, and he will be better for it.

[BSN07]

I brought this up in another thread. Masterson might be the easiest piece to trade because he has more value to other teams than he seems to for the Red Sox.

 

Also, I'm starting to think that not only is Daniel Bard > Justin Masterson, but Daniel Bard > Joba Chamberlain. His stuff is better and his role is more defined. If Chamberlain pulls it together as a starting pitcher then that will change, but nobody questions that Bard is a setup man and his role will not change.

 

The Yankees pitching woes have really f***ed Joba's role up. Hughes in the 'pen, Joba struggling as a starter? What?

 

I brought up Masterson having more value to other teams this winter and was told I was a fool and basically got bashed for it.

 

It was during some trade talks. I was saying Masterson be a good player to possibly move because he was a RP on the Sox, but they could trade him and possibly get SP value for him.

[Dipre]

I think the tendonitis scared Joba and showed him that throwing every pitch full force is a bad idea. I think Joba is trying to be a guy who throws 92-93 consistently with the occasional 97-98mph fastball as needed. What he is seeing' date=' though, is that he has to be a lot more fine with the 92-93 than he did with the 97-98. When he was in the pen, he got the 98mph heat close to the location and he dominated. Now, the 92mph heat close to the location is getting fouled off. This causes longer counts, increased tiredness and an increased likelihood of a walk or a mistake. He'll get there. Either he will gain more endurance and arm strength through this yr causing him to be able to elevate the heater further on into his career, or he will develop some improved control. As much as some like to think it is, this is not a lost yr for Joba. This is a learning opportunity for him, and he will be better for it.[/quote']

 

Joba's mechanics. Study them.

[example1]

I think the tendonitis scared Joba and showed him that throwing every pitch full force is a bad idea. I think Joba is trying to be a guy who throws 92-93 consistently with the occasional 97-98mph fastball as needed. What he is seeing' date=' though, is that he has to be a lot more fine with the 92-93 than he did with the 97-98. When he was in the pen, he got the 98mph heat close to the location and he dominated. Now, the 92mph heat close to the location is getting fouled off. This causes longer counts, increased tiredness and an increased likelihood of a walk or a mistake. He'll get there. [b']Either he will gain more endurance and arm strength through this yr causing him to be able to elevate the heater further on into his career, or he will develop some improved control. [/b]

 

Or he will not be the pitcher people think he is going to be.... it is a 3rd possibility that should be accounted for. You are asking that he develop pinpoint control or Roger Clemens-like stamina. Perhaps he will get there, but I'm not sure, especially since pinpoint control is something that people try to develop for their whole lives and fail. My guess is that if he doesn't gain the stamina to be able to consistently hit 94-95, he will be much less successful than you hoped for (or I assumed).

 

Or they could just get their heads out of their asses and make him the heir to Mo and have him solidify the 8th inning.

 

As much as some like to think it is, this is not a lost yr for Joba. This is a learning opportunity for him, and he will be better for it.

 

The results will bear this out one way or the other. Presently this sentiment is nothing but optimism (and I'm an optimistic guy too!).

[jacksonianmarch]

and he produced today. Velocity was good and after the first 2 innings, he was damn near unhittable and the location was there. Maybe he just needed a mental break.

[example1]

Joba is a huge, HUGE tool and someone who I hope fails every single game.

[jacksonianmarch]

I dont care how big of a tool he is. Paps is just as big a tool and I would love both of them in pinstripes.

[Dutchy]

and he produced today. Velocity was good and after the first 2 innings' date=' he was damn near unhittable and the location was there. Maybe he just needed a mental break.[/quote']

 

He got twice his normal amount or rest. Wait until he's pitching on normal rest, then see what his velocity is.

[Dutchy]

I dont care how big of a tool he is. Paps is just as big a tool and I would love both of them in pinstripes.

 

Do you at least admit you were wrong about Bard? He's just as good as the reliever Chamberlain has been. And Chambo hasn't shown much as a starter.

[Cocos Disciples]

Do you at least admit you were wrong about Bard? He's twice the reliever Chamberlain has been. And Chambo hasn't shown much as a starter.

 

What?

 

Bard: 2.42 ERA, 1.03 WHIP, 3.2 K/BB, 11.1 K/9, 5.9 H/9, 3.5 BB/9

Chamberlain in relief: 1.53 ERA, 1.00 WHIP, 3.9 K/BB, 11.9 K/9, 5.9 H/9, 3.05 BB/9

[Dutchy]

What?

 

Bard: 2.42 ERA, 1.03 WHIP, 3.2 K/BB, 11.1 K/9, 5.9 H/9, 3.5 BB/9

Chamberlain in relief: 1.53 ERA, 1.00 WHIP, 3.9 K/BB, 11.9 K/9, 5.9 H/9, 3.05 BB/9

 

Do you really have to refute every single thing I say? I'm beginning to wonder what you have against me other than being Crespos' BFF. Rush Limbaugh forever!

 

The only year Chambo was even close to Bard's numbers was in 2007, in a tiny sample size. Bard has a 1.86 FIP as a reliever with a 11+ K/9. The best year Chambo's ever ever had, he had a 1.82 FIP with a 10+ K/9. And he hasn't been nearly the same since.

[Cocos Disciples]

Really, I'm not allowed to refute what you say? All right. You nailed it. Joba's sample size for 2007, which is 2 IP less than the only sample size you have for Bard, is tiny.

[example1]

The only year Chambo was even close to Bard's numbers was in 2007, in a tiny sample size. Bard has a 1.86 FIP as a reliever with a 11+ K/9. The best year Chambo's ever ever had, he had a 1.82 FIP with a 10+ K/9. And he hasn't been nearly the same since.

 

Both are very good relievers. Chamberlain's league debut was undoubtedly better than Bard's. He gave up 2 runs in roughly the same amount of innings; Bard has given up 11. During that time his H/9, BB/9 and K/9 are all worse than Joba's.

 

The only mistake Chamberlain made was having been on a team that moved him out of the bullpen. If not for that he would have been setting up Rivera in the pen for 2 years while Daniel Bard is just getting his training wheels off.

[Dutchy]

Really' date=' I'm not allowed to refute what you say? All right. You nailed it. Joba's sample size for 2007, which is 2 IP less than the only sample size you have for Bard, is tiny.[/quote']

 

Yup, you're not allowed to ever refute what I say. That's totally what I said, slave!

 

Man, I wish I listened to Rush Limbaugh so I could fit in...

[Dutchy]

I dont care how big of a tool he is. Paps is just as big a tool and I would love both of them in pinstripes.

 

Call me when Paps gets arrested for driving drunk at 100 mph.

[jacksonianmarch]

I guarantee you he'll be back in the pen the next night

[jacksonianmarch]

Do you really have to refute every single thing I say? I'm beginning to wonder what you have against me other than being Crespos' BFF. Rush Limbaugh forever!

 

The only year Chambo was even close to Bard's numbers was in 2007, in a tiny sample size. Bard has a 1.86 FIP as a reliever with a 11+ K/9. The best year Chambo's ever ever had, he had a 1.82 FIP with a 10+ K/9. And he hasn't been nearly the same since.

 

well, last yr Joba was hurt and was yo-yo'd between starting and relieving. Here's the thing. Joba is still new to this role and he's going to get better. Bard cannot start. The sox have learned that lesson with his embarassing debut in low A where he got hit hard and walked 9-10 per 9IP. I will assure you that Joba in the pen would be more dominant than Bard. That being said, watching Bard is frustrating, cause I know he's gonna be a pain in the yanks asses for a long time

[Cocos Disciples]

Yup, you're not allowed to ever refute what I say. That's totally what I said, slave!

 

Man, I wish I listened to Rush Limbaugh so I could fit in...

 

Awesome. When you're on a message board, expect to be responded to. It's not a personal grudge, it's discussion/debate.

[BSN07]

And the fall of Dutchy begins. It's a slippery slope mate, get a grip while you can.

 

You can't come in here and make a statement that is false and not expect people to call you on it. We have all tried, and we have all failed. Don't get personal. People aren't attacking you. The stats showed your claim to be false. Someone just decided to tell you. Be thankful CD is correcting you, it could be Gom.

[Dojji]

Can we be clear about one thing though?

 

Daniel Bard is a match for Chamberlain in the stuff department. He's a little behind on command but that can develop, and he's miles ahead on mechanics and body type. In other words, it's reasonable to compare Chamberlain and Bard.

 

Bard also wipes the floor with Chamberlain in the attitude department, for whatever that's worth.

 

Also, one other thing, Duchy does have a point about FIP. While also being extremely talented, Chamberlain got away with a lot of stuff that year, and there were some times when Rivera bailed him out. I don't think you can look just at ERA and say that Chamberlain's debut season was more impressive than Bard's. Especially since Bard is going to pitch more over a longer period than Chamberlain did, and he's probably going to earn his way into a setup role over more talented pitchers than the Yankees had to work with in '07, which should be more impressive to those keeping score. Also we don't have to mollycoddle our guy. There's no "Bard Rules." Bard just rules, and will come in whenever you need him. That consideration should at least be a tiebreaker with all else equal.

[Dipre]

Daniel Bard is a match for Chamberlain in the stuff department.

 

Actually one might contend that Bard has better stuff.

 

Three-digit cheese plus that slider is a recipe for hitter frustration.

[Spudboy]

Actually one might contend that Bard has better stuff.

 

Three-digit cheese plus that slider is a recipe for hitter frustration.

 

Plus he's just fun to watch.

 

He'll no doubt have some troubles. But he has great stuff and wants to compete.

[Dojji]

More impressive than 3 digit cheese is the easy 98 IMHO. It's just so rare to see him thwo a fastball less than 97 or so. A lot of pitchers can touch the high 90's and sniff 100 but not a lot of pitchers can really live there like Bard does.

[Dipre]

More impressive than 3 digit cheese is the easy 98 IMHO. It's just so rare to see him thwo a fastball less than 97 or so. A lot of pitchers can touch the high 90's and sniff 100 but not a lot of pitchers can really live there like Bard does.

 

The reason is simple, Bard's mechanics are nearly flawless.

 

His delivery is easy and repeatable, and his arm slot easy to find, helping him maintain his stuff better when he's tired, if he had a high-maintenance delivery like Joba, he might throw 103.

[BoSox21]

He's got incredible stuff but it's irrelevant unless he can harness his stuff to develop into a consistent reliever. No walks in his last 8.2 IP is a very nice sign though.