Daniel Bard

[jacksonianmarch]

why so personal these days? Mommy ground you?

[TheKilo]

That's the best you could come up with?

[example1]

If Bard continues to dominate in the minor leagues for a few months I think they will bring him up, maybe by July if not sooner. You can't have too many good arms in the pen, and if Bard can eat lower leverage innings that might keep Masterson, Saito, Okijima and Ramirez from being overused then they should use him. All he really needs to do is put the ball over the plate consistently and avoid walking guys. If he can do that he can have a spot on this team.

 

I'm not sure what changes he made to suddenly find control last year. Perhaps it was getting used to just pitching from the stretch, or only appearing in relief situations, or changing his arm slot or something else. I'm not totally sold that he's a changed pitcher, but if the Sox FO is we should expect to see him this year.

[diony]

If Bard continues to dominate in the minor leagues for a few months I think they will bring him up, maybe by July if not sooner. You can't have too many good arms in the pen, and if Bard can eat lower leverage innings that might keep Masterson, Saito, Okijima and Ramirez from being overused then they should use him. All he really needs to do is put the ball over the plate consistently and avoid walking guys. If he can do that he can have a spot on this team.

 

I'm not sure what changes he made to suddenly find control last year. Perhaps it was getting used to just pitching from the stretch, or only appearing in relief situations, or changing his arm slot or something else. I'm not totally sold that he's a changed pitcher, but if the Sox FO is we should expect to see him this year.

 

4.7 BB/9 as a 23 year old in AA, control.

[Dojji]

Gotta agree with Diony here, Bard's upside seems to be as a Juan Cruz type -- ungodly stuff, but a lot of walks -- I mean a LOT of WALKS -- mixed in for good measure. He might be almost as good as David Aardsma unless he takes another step forward

[Dojji]

lol quack

 

excellent word choice

 

http://thevirtualvine.com/123/dsplys/quack.JPG

[BoSox21]

Look, no matter how you look at it, the guy made incredible strides in his development in 2008. Let's see how his 2009 turns out cause he's already off to a hell of a start

[example1]

4.7 BB/9 as a 23 year old in AA' date=' control.[/quote']

 

No.

 

[table] year| Level | IP | K | BB | K/BB |

2007 | A | 61.2 | 38 | 56 | 0.68 |

2007 | A+ | 13.1 | 9 | 22 | 0.41 |

2008 | A | 28 | 43 | 4 | 10.75 |

2008 | AA | 49.2 | 64 | 26 | 2.46 | [/table]

 

I'm not saying Bard is a control pitcher by any stretch, but to go from consistently more BBs than K's to consistently more K's than BB's is a big step in the right direction.

[Dojji]

Bard has definitely come a long way, but he also has a long way to go yet, and he's running out of time.

 

I don't think that we would be as excited about Bard a month into his MLB tenure as we are now if we actually brought him up in midseason this year.

[BoSox21]

Is there not reason for optimism considering he turned a corner in a huge way last season? I mean, the guy was a COMPLETELY different pitcher and if he keeps it up, he can be in the majors by the time he's 25

[ORS]

Running out of time? I think you'd need a little Special Relativity to sell that one.

[Dojji]

Running out of time? I think you'd need a little Special Relativity to sell that one.

 

Really? When he's going into his age 24 season with Aardsma type command? And might still start the year in Portland because of it?

 

Bard has more than enough talent to pull it off, but you can't deny his window is getting smaller can you?

[Dojji]

Is there not reason for optimism considering he turned a corner in a huge way last season? I mean' date=' the guy was a COMPLETELY different pitcher and if he keeps it up, he can be in the majors by the time he's 25[/quote']

 

Sure, I mean, he's an actual pitcher now. Even there though, just because he's come a long way doesn't mean squat if he's still short of where he'd need to be.

 

If we have an injury in Boston I want Hunter Jones on that bus right now, and probably throughout this year. Not Bard. The same arguments you're using to defend Bard now could apply to Aardsma and you know it.

[BoSox21]

I don't want Bard in Boston either and I haven't been saying that. All I've said is if he continues to make massive strides in his development, he could be a September call-up at the earliest. But it's too early to keep invoking the name David Aardsma into the conversation about him.

 

I'll admit Bard's control is around Aardsma's right now but Bard is showing improvement with his control, something Aardsma never showed. If Bard's control doesn't improve this season, if he doesn't continue developing, then you might have an argument.

[ORS]

Really? When he's going into his age 24 season with Aardsma type command? And might still start the year in Portland because of it?

 

Bard has more than enough talent to pull it off, but you can't deny his window is getting smaller can you?

What does 24 have to do with anything? He was drafted in '06, so he's protected for 3 more years under the new rules, and if he continues to show progress, he'll easily get a 40 man spot given his natural talent after the 3 years are up. He's easily got 4 or 5 years to get his s*** together, not that I think it's going to take that long. So, like I said, you are going to have to make some time transforms using the equations of special relativity to turn the amount of time he has into a short enough period to say that his "time is running out".

[Dojji]

You're conveniently ignoring the fact that we dismiss Aardsma types as Aardsma types after age 26 or so. He doesn't have 6 or 7 years. He has maybe three. If he's age 26 and still in the minors he's probably staying there other than a couple cameos.

 

Don't think that happens to guys who can throw as hard as Bard? Two words: Travis Hughes.

 

See also: Fernando Cabrera.

[CrespoBlows]

None of those guys throw as hard as Bard.

[Dojji]

They're not that far short of him though, Hughes hits 96 regularly and Cabrera can get into the high 90's as well. And we know Aardsma himself hits 97. All three of them can overpower big league hitters -- when they can hit the strike zone that is. It'll be the same way with Bard unless he can get his BB/9 south of 3.

[CrespoBlows]

They're not that far short of him though' date=' Hughes hits 96 regularly and Cabrera can get into the high 90's as well. Both of them can overpower big league hitters -- when they can hit the strike zone that is. It'll be the same way with Bard unless he can get his BB/9 south of 3.[/quote']

 

Worthless.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

I'd say a better comparison for Daniel Bard is Joba Chamberlain, Bobby Jenks, Joel Zumaya.

 

High velocity fastball that could touch 100 and a breaking ball (call it a curve or slider) but not much else. Durability and consistency become the biggest questions with these guys. Luckily for Bard he throws with an effortless motion which leads me to believe there isn't as much strain. His breaking ball has come a long ways but is probably only good for an inning or so. He was deffinitly built for the bullpen and should be a hell of a setup man for the Red Sox when his time comes. Stay healthy and be around the plate....thats what made Rivera, Hoffman, and so far Papelbon so dominant.

[example1]

I agree and think those are good comparisons. And Dojji, I hate to say this, but if he "only" walks 3/9 then we're talking about a guy who allows an extra baserunner every 3 innings. If he pitches sparingly, or if they can determine any group that he does better against then others, chances are he can improve on that amount, or continue to be aggressive, walk a few more guys but get everyone else to hit weak popups or strike out. Hell, if he's a 6th or 7th inning guy who can be relieved by Ramirez, Delcarmen, Okajima, etc., if he gets in trouble, he could be more than useful, even this early in his development. Or he could Hansen and suck and crumble under pressure.

[jacksonianmarch]

No.

 

[table] year| Level | IP | K | BB | K/BB |

2007 | A | 61.2 | 38 | 56 | 0.68 |

2007 | A+ | 13.1 | 9 | 22 | 0.41 |

2008 | A | 28 | 43 | 4 | 10.75 |

2008 | AA | 49.2 | 64 | 26 | 2.46 | [/table]

 

I'm not saying Bard is a control pitcher by any stretch, but to go from consistently more BBs than K's to consistently more K's than BB's is a big step in the right direction.

 

He found his control in low A as a 23 yr old with power stuff and then conveniently lost it when he faced more polished hitters. Listen man, I agree he took a big step forward, but he didnt suddenly find control. He suddenly found more aggressive and less skilled hitters. Nobody doubts that Bard has a great fastball. And nobody doubts that on his good days, Bard could be completely lights out. I think what remains to be seen is if he can consistently get good fastball command on a day to day basis. He hasnt shown that at all. If he can at least have that then he'll be useful. Right now he doesnt

[diony]

I'd say a better comparison for Daniel Bard is Joba Chamberlain, Bobby Jenks, Joel Zumaya.

 

High velocity fastball that could touch 100 and a breaking ball (call it a curve or slider) but not much else. Durability and consistency become the biggest questions with these guys. Luckily for Bard he throws with an effortless motion which leads me to believe there isn't as much strain. His breaking ball has come a long ways but is probably only good for an inning or so. He was deffinitly built for the bullpen and should be a hell of a setup man for the Red Sox when his time comes. Stay healthy and be around the plate....thats what made Rivera, Hoffman, and so far Papelbon so dominant.

 

Because they both sit at 98?

[jacksonianmarch]

I'd say a better comparison for Daniel Bard is Joba Chamberlain, Bobby Jenks, Joel Zumaya.

 

High velocity fastball that could touch 100 and a breaking ball (call it a curve or slider) but not much else. Durability and consistency become the biggest questions with these guys. Luckily for Bard he throws with an effortless motion which leads me to believe there isn't as much strain. His breaking ball has come a long ways but is probably only good for an inning or so. He was deffinitly built for the bullpen and should be a hell of a setup man for the Red Sox when his time comes. Stay healthy and be around the plate....thats what made Rivera, Hoffman, and so far Papelbon so dominant.

 

I actually would put Jenks in there and get rid of the Zumaya comparison and the Joba one. I do think Jenks and Bard fall along a similar path and Jenks is the best case scenario for Bard. I wouldnt put Zumaya in there because I think Zumaya consistently throws harder than all on the list. Zumaya can sit 99-101, Bard tops out there as do Jenks and Joba. Also, Zumaya has battled injuries since his run in 2006 and therefore may not be someone to strive for in the first place. But getting back to the Jenks comparison. Jenks was an all fastball, no control starter in the Angels system who converted to the pen full time in 2005 when he was claimed by the White Sox and was lights out from there. I think comparing to Joba in terms of stuff is off because Joba has a better slider and a third plus pitch and comparing control is not even close either.

[Dojji]

I'd say a better comparison for Daniel Bard is Joba Chamberlain' date=' Bobby Jenks, Joel Zumaya.[/quote']

 

Not until he gets his walks down it isn't. You can fault Joba for a lot of things but spotty command isn't one of them and while Jenks used to be a bit wild he settled WAAAAY down over the last couple years and had an impressive 1.8 bb/9 this last season.

 

Zumaya's probably a fair comp but not a beneficial one for Bard -- he had a 1:1 BB/K ratio -- over 8k/9, over 8 bb/9. That's pretty Aardsma-like.

 

Right now the best big league comparison for Bard is probably Brian Bruney, Juan Cruz, or Carlos Marmol. Guys who walk a lot of batters but are overpowering enough to get away with it.

 

High velocity fastball that could touch 100 and a breaking ball (call it a curve or slider) but not much else. Durability and consistency become the biggest questions with these guys.

 

No, command became the biggest issue with these guys. The success stories are the guys who mastered it. Baseball hitters are cunning and excel at timing a pitcher. Bard could throw a baseball through a steel pylon but if he can't put it where he wants to, it's still going back out twice as fast as it's coming in once guys have seen him a few times.

 

I don't particularly care if a guy is injury prone. You can work around that given adequate depth as long as a guy isn't Glass Carl. If a pitcher cannot command his pitches, throw strikes, find the holes in a hitter's swing, and make adjustments to the hitter as he adjusts to the pitcher, all of which require a big league level of command and control that Bard doesn't have yet, he isn't going to thrive at the big league level for very long.

 

Luckily for Bard he throws with an effortless motion which leads me to believe there isn't as much strain. His breaking ball has come a long ways but is probably only good for an inning or so. He was deffinitly built for the bullpen and should be a hell of a setup man for the Red Sox when his time comes. Stay healthy and be around the plate....thats what made Rivera, Hoffman, and so far Papelbon so dominant.

 

THat's not half of what made Rivera, Hoffman, and Papelbon so dominant. All three of these pitchers have superb command and control, enough to compensate for a lack of overpowering stuff in any given outing.

 

Papelbon might top out at 98 can get big league hitters out even when he's only hitting 91 on the radar gun -- we've seen it several times. Rivera and Hoffmann don't regularly top out above 92 anymore. Bard is going to have to be at his best just to get people out, if he doesn't have his 100 in a given outing he has a far better chance of being lit up. That's why he belongs in the minors. If he's walking 4 batters per 9 innings in AA he's walking a whole HECK of a lot more than that if he comes to the big leagues now and giving up HR's when he has to overpitch the fastall too.

 

I understand the lure of the power reliever guys -- believe me, I do. I'm grateful that we have 3 very good ones on our roster right now. But the downside of the power reliever is always and will always be the walks, and Bard needs to prove that he can overcome that problem before he should sniff the big leagues, overpowering stuff or not.

[BSN07]

I actually would put Jenks in there and get rid of the Zumaya comparison and the Joba one. I do think Jenks and Bard fall along a similar path and Jenks is the best case scenario for Bard. I wouldnt put Zumaya in there because I think Zumaya consistently throws harder than all on the list. Zumaya can sit 99-101' date=' Bard tops out there as do Jenks and Joba. Also, Zumaya has battled injuries since his run in 2006 and therefore may not be someone to strive for in the first place. But getting back to the Jenks comparison. Jenks was an all fastball, no control starter in the Angels system who converted to the pen full time in 2005 when he was claimed by the White Sox and was lights out from there. I think comparing to Joba in terms of stuff is off because Joba has a better slider and a third plus pitch and comparing control is not even close either.[/quote']

 

The couple times I've seen Bard pitch this spring, he has been at 97-99MPH with his FB consistently. Given his effortless motion, I think if he tried he could hit 100MPH+ like Zumaya.

 

 

Bard looks like he could be really good. But he still has some work to be done. I look forward to watching his progression.

[jacksonianmarch]

Not until he gets his walks down it isn't. You can fault Joba for a lot of things but spotty command isn't one of them and while Jenks used to be a bit wild he settled WAAAAY down over the last couple years and had an impressive 1.8 bb/9 this last season.

 

Zumaya's probably a fair comp but not a beneficial one for Bard -- he had a 1:1 BB/K ratio -- over 8k/9, over 8 bb/9. That's pretty Aardsma-like.

 

Right now the best big league comparison for Bard is probably Brian Bruney, Juan Cruz, or Carlos Marmol. Guys who walk a lot of batters but are overpowering enough to get away with it.

 

 

 

No, command became the biggest issue with these guys. The success stories are the guys who mastered it. Baseball hitters are cunning and excel at timing a pitcher. Bard could throw a baseball through a steel pylon but if he can't put it where he wants to, it's still going back out twice as fast as it's coming in once guys have seen him a few times.

 

I don't particularly care if a guy is injury prone. You can work around that given adequate depth as long as a guy isn't Glass Carl. If a pitcher cannot command his pitches, throw strikes, find the holes in a hitter's swing, and make adjustments to the hitter as he adjusts to the pitcher, all of which require a big league level of command and control that Bard doesn't have yet, he isn't going to thrive at the big league level for very long.

 

 

 

THat's not half of what made Rivera, Hoffman, and Papelbon so dominant. All three of these pitchers have superb command and control, enough to compensate for a lack of overpowering stuff in any given outing.

 

Papelbon might top out at 98 can get big league hitters out even when he's only hitting 91 on the radar gun -- we've seen it several times. Rivera and Hoffmann don't regularly top out above 92 anymore. Bard is going to have to be at his best just to get people out, if he doesn't have his 100 in a given outing he has a far better chance of being lit up. That's why he belongs in the minors. If he's walking 4 batters per 9 innings in AA he's walking a whole HECK of a lot more than that if he comes to the big leagues now and giving up HR's when he has to overpitch the fastall too.

 

I understand the lure of the power reliever guys -- believe me, I do. I'm grateful that we have 3 very good ones on our roster right now. But the downside of the power reliever is always and will always be the walks, and Bard needs to prove that he can overcome that problem before he should sniff the big leagues, overpowering stuff or not.

 

very nice post

[Dojji]

very nice post

 

Uggh, I feel dirty now.

[BSN07]

Uggh' date=' I feel dirty now.[/quote']

 

One of the better post's I've seen from you Dojji:D

 

 

Hopefully this post will be like soap for you, but filth like Jacko() doesn't come off easy:D

[riverside sluggers]

I cant wait for the debut of Bard. He just needs at least half of a season in Triple A to be ready. The bullpen is already a lock to be one of the top 5 in baseball, add a young fireballer into the mix... wow