5th starter?

[elsrbueno]

I think the most intriguing option is Hansack. His endurance probably needs a little work' date=' but he brings something to the table that is important, IMO. He pounds the strike zone. He's got good control of 3 or more pitches. It isn't plus plus stuff, but he can put it where he wants. I think this would make him pretty effective pitching to contact, and at a minimum it would make the other team earn it.[/quote']

 

I don't like the idea of guys who pitch to contact in the AL East. There are too many good offenses.

 

He's probably as good a bet as anyone the Sox have right now though.

[a700hitter]

Hansack may be intriguing, but are we going to start this season with a parade of pitchers auditioning for the 5th slot. That's what happened last year and it turned out that we rolled out one garbage can after another and became incredibly dependent on the top of the rotation going deep into games so as not to totally wear down the bullpen. By the end of July, the 4th slot in the rotation was doing autions and by the 1st week of August, the wheels fell off the whole staff.

[ORS]

He's not a pure contact pitcher. He's got an 7.5+ K/9 rate in the minors. He just won't overpower anyone with his stuff. Compared to all the other options, he's the one that controls the strikezone best. I think I'd rather have a Paul Byrd type pitcher in the 5 spot than a kid with knock-out stuff but little command.

[a700hitter]

A quote from Theo:

 

I think we have some significant depth. There's Kyle Snyder, and Jon Lester is just getting stretched out. Kason Gabbard, Devern Hansack, David Pauley.

Someone needs to check what is in his coffee cup.

[jacksonianmarch]

Your 5th starter needs to avoid allowing a lot of baserunners. That is all. If he gives up the homerun or gets battered by the better hitting teams, that is expected. But the kiss of death to a staff is having a #5 who allows 8 baserunners and labors through 5 innings, leaving the pen to clean up 4 innings worth of a mess every 5th day. I'd take a #5 who averged 6IP a start with a 5.00ERA. With NY or BOS lineup, that would save the pen and would likely translate into a good amount of wins.

[jacksonianmarch]

He's not a pure contact pitcher. He's got an 7.5+ K/9 rate in the minors. He just won't overpower anyone with his stuff. Compared to all the other options' date=' he's the one that controls the strikezone best. I think I'd rather have a Paul Byrd type pitcher in the 5 spot than a kid with knock-out stuff but little command.[/quote']

 

absolutely. Move the game along, eat some innings and save the pen. Amen ORS.

[jacksonianmarch]

Did anyone see the composite of Pauley, Gabbard, Snyder, Tavarez and Hansack from last yr?

 

26GS 131IP 171H 77ER 49BB 90K 5.29ERA 1.68WHIP and 5.03IP/start

[a700hitter]

Did anyone see the composite of Pauley, Gabbard, Snyder, Tavarez and Hansack from last yr?

 

26GS 131IP 171H 77ER 49BB 90K 5.29ERA 1.68WHIP and 5.03IP/start

Theo is either lying or smoking crack if he thinks this is depth.

[Mr Crunchy]

all we need from the 5 is 5-6 ip and an era of 5

keep us in the game and i'll b happy

[a700hitter]

all we need from the 5 is 5-6 ip and an era of 5

keep us in the game and i'll b happy

These guys usually give up 5 in the first 5 innings causing a major strain on the bullpen. Even when they pitch well, they don't go deep into games.

[Mr Crunchy]

last years guys didnt

this year we stepped up a tad perhaps with tavares and piniero as opposed to lenny and jj

its a big question mark sir

no doubt

[riverside sluggers]

Did anyone see the composite of Pauley, Gabbard, Snyder, Tavarez and Hansack from last yr?

 

26GS 131IP 171H 77ER 49BB 90K 5.29ERA 1.68WHIP and 5.03IP/start

 

Well yea Hansack's stats look f***ed up if you throw him in that mix? I thought he pitched good in the 2 starts he had last year. His last start was the rain shortened 5 inning no-hitter, of course he couldve gone longer

[a700hitter]

Well yea Hansack's stats look f***ed up if you throw him in that mix? I thought he pitched good in the 2 starts he had last year. His last start was the rain shortened 5 inning no-hitter' date=' of course he couldve gone longer[/quote']It was garbage time. Both teams had been long eliminated. THey were packed to go home for the winter. Scrubs were playing. It meant nothing. He is not even a good prospect for trading purposes. Hansack, Gabbard et. al all stink. They are not depth. They are death if we have to resort to them. Theo has to get his head out of his ass and get a major league starter to fill out the rotation.

[dicek1220]

I personally am not too worried about the Red Sox fifth starter to start the season. For the first couple weeks of the season don't teams usually use a four man rotation anyway?

 

I guess we'll just have Tavarez or one of these other bums pitch a few games until Lester is ready or the front office makes a move. IMO the Sox had to start the season with a closer. The Sox still have plenty of time to find a 5th starter and they're a hell of a lot easier to find then closers.

[TedWilliams101]

I agree that an elite starter is "better" than an elite closer, but if you look at this move from both a team and individual standpoint, its a win-win situation. The team needed a closer desperately and had arguably the best rotation in baseball. Thats a fact. Moving Papelbon to the bullpen fills our HUGE hole and the team is stronger now. Papaelbon also said he wants to be a closer for the rest of his career. He himself said he pitched in the pen during college and in the minors before they had him a starter. And he seems to be made for closing. He has the electricity, the stuff, the mindset, etc. It can be extremely hard to find an exceptional closer, don't mess with it.

 

NOW, the facts. Papelbon had a historic rookie year closing last season. Thats a fact. He IS an elite closer. He's already proven that. NOW, he HAS NOT proven that he can be an elite starter. SO, here I ask you, why mess with something that is worked out perfectly. We need a closer, and he may be the best in baseball. Isn't it logical to have him close when we have essentially 3 aces in the rotation? And again, we still don't know how effective he would be starting. Could he consistantly go more than 5 innings? Can he mix his pitches enough to go 3 times through the line-up? Can he maintain his stamina, meaning less heat on his pitches so that he doesn't wear out quick and he can reach back for more stuff when he needs it? These are all unanswered questions.

 

The facts are that we needed a closer while we had a great rotation. Moving papelbon fills the hole while not greatly affecting the rotation. And its a fact that Papelbon is an elite closer, he's proven it. He hasn't proven to be an elite starter though. It would be a mistake to use this season as an experiment with Paps, when we already know he is amazing at closing games.

[riverside sluggers]

It was garbage time. Both teams had been long eliminated. THey were packed to go home for the winter. Scrubs were playing. It meant nothing. He is not even a good prospect for trading purposes. Hansack' date=' Gabbard et. al all stink. They are not depth. They are death if we have to resort to them. Theo has to get his head out of his ass and get a major league starter to fill out the rotation.[/quote']

 

Any player can be had in a trade. Hell the Royals just acquired the weak hitting Tony Pena Jr from the Braves to contend for the shortstop position

 

If teams were asking for Kyle Snyder (ive heard Florida, Washington), im sure they wouldnt mind looking at the other guys if Theo sets them on the clearance shelf. I do agree a trade must be made for the 5th starter's slot. The best options I can hold out for is that Roger decides to come back or Lester regains his stuff and is back by the All-Star Break. Both of course seem to be long shots. I wouldnt mind if the Sox kicked the tires on Jon Lieber

[TheKilo]

I agree that an elite starter is "better" than an elite closer, but if you look at this move from both a team and individual standpoint, its a win-win situation. The team needed a closer desperately and had arguably the best rotation in baseball. Thats a fact. Moving Papelbon to the bullpen fills our HUGE hole and the team is stronger now. Papaelbon also said he wants to be a closer for the rest of his career. He himself said he pitched in the pen during college and in the minors before they had him a starter. And he seems to be made for closing. He has the electricity, the stuff, the mindset, etc. It can be extremely hard to find an exceptional closer, don't mess with it.

 

NOW, the facts. Papelbon had a historic rookie year closing last season. Thats a fact. He IS an elite closer. He's already proven that. NOW, he HAS NOT proven that he can be an elite starter. SO, here I ask you, why mess with something that is worked out perfectly. We need a closer, and he may be the best in baseball. Isn't it logical to have him close when we have essentially 3 aces in the rotation? And again, we still don't know how effective he would be starting. Could he consistantly go more than 5 innings? Can he mix his pitches enough to go 3 times through the line-up? Can he maintain his stamina, meaning less heat on his pitches so that he doesn't wear out quick and he can reach back for more stuff when he needs it? These are all unanswered questions.

 

The facts are that we needed a closer while we had a great rotation. Moving papelbon fills the hole while not greatly affecting the rotation. And its a fact that Papelbon is an elite closer, he's proven it. He hasn't proven to be an elite starter though. It would be a mistake to use this season as an experiment with Paps, when we already know he is amazing at closing games.

 

Now what happens if the stress of closing makes his shoulder explode?

 

Do you think Tito will use him better this year? I don't.

[jacksonianmarch]

Now what happens if the stress of closing makes his shoulder explode?

 

Do you think Tito will use him better this year? I don't.

 

spot on kilo. You are handing what is being termed a fragile shoulder over to tito to be used "sparingly." After Timlin goes into his typical late season swoon and the rest of the jokers Theo brought in go belly up, who will be used for 2 inning saves on a near nightly basis to prevent the august flop? Paps is going to be upper 70s in innings again with half of them coming in the last 6 weeks.

[Soxfan1]

At this point, I would go with Tavare, but Snyder is a close second as soon as he screws up.

[EvilDonut]

Id really like Hansack to at least be seriously considered. He did good today, and he was pounding the strike zone.

[ORS]

The facts are that we needed a closer while we had a great rotation. Moving papelbon fills the hole while not greatly affecting the rotation. And its a fact that Papelbon is an elite closer' date=' he's proven it. He hasn't proven to be an elite starter though. It would be a mistake to use this season as an experiment with Paps, when we already know he is amazing at closing games.[/quote']

While not greatly affecting the rotation? The jump from Paplebon to Tavarez in the rotation is large.

 

Yes, he's proven he's an elite closer. What I take contention with is the notion that he hasn't proven he can be an elite starter. He hasn't been given a chance. I have no problems with this move if he proves that he can't be one, but you won't know until you try. They aren't even trying. That's stupid.

[RobZombie]

While not greatly affecting the rotation? The jump from Paplebon to Tavarez in the rotation is large.

 

Yes, he's proven he's an elite closer. What I take contention with is the notion that he hasn't proven he can be an elite starter. He hasn't been given a chance. I have no problems with this move if he proves that he can't be one, but you won't know until you try. They aren't even trying. That's stupid.

 

Mr. Red Seat. I am going to tell you once again that calling people stupid won't make Jonathan Papelbon into the pitcher that you think he is. If the jump from Papeblon to Tavarez is "HUGE", its because Tavarez absolutely sucks (which he might), not because Papelbon has a chance to jump out and become an elite starter because he doesn't.

[ORS]

This is, again, your opinion, Mr. Julio. Your opinion that he can't be an elite starter does not make it fact. I'm not saying he will be, unlike you saying he won't be. I'm saying they should find out. That is all.

[RobZombie]

And my argument is that he has many hurdles that to overcome before he can even think about doing that. Hurdles that he probably wouldn't be able to overcome right away and may not ever be able to. This is a team that spent $140M and has a chance to win the pennant. There is no time for science experiments.

 

Whatever your take, the people who are on the opposite side from you aren't stupid, and know baseball just as well as you do, and in some cases maybe better. So lets stop calling people who think that that Papelbon won't be an elite starter dunderheads kapeesh?

[Sox Fan on Cape]

My 2 cents, is to look at the overall situation. The Sox currently have a strong 1,2, and 3 starting pitchers. With Paps going to the closer role, he fulfills a major hole in the bullpen. His contribution as a starter over a full season hasn't been determined, but to start the season he'd have to be rated as a 3 or 4. This means that Wak. moves up to the 4th slot.

This means we need a #4 or #5 starter to fill the hole. Although the thought of Tavarez doesn't excite me, I believe it's a stop gap measure. The impact is reduced by the fact that in the early part of the season there typically more scheduled days off and rain outs. So what we're talking about is finding a permanent 4/5 starter. My first question is, " How is Lester coming along ? ". I haven't heard anything about his progress. Still, we could trade or promote from within the organization. So, yes ORS it would have been nice to see what the ceiling is for Papelbon. But under the current circumstances, I believe, his known value as a closer outweighs is potential as a starter.

[ORS]

Here' my problem with the move (aside from losing overall value). It feels a whole hell of a lot like what it did going into last season. We went into April thinking, good BP, 4 good starters, Wells coming back soon, let's go.....

 

It didn't take long for 4 starters to turn into 3, and that is what killed this team last year. The people who will be filling in are the same cast of characters. And with two 40+ y/o pitchers, it could happen at a moment's notice.

[MANNYHOF24]

I think Lester is the wild card in this whole thing. If he pitches like he did in June and July last year, I think the Rotation will be ok. Clemens is another huge wildcard, also I heard Clement might be back around July, which doesn't give me any confidence but hey it's an another arm.

[Peters34]

I dont know but we need to find out soon

[RobZombie]

Here' my problem with the move (aside from losing overall value). It feels a whole hell of a lot like what it did going into last season. We went into April thinking, good BP, 4 good starters, Wells coming back soon, let's go.....

 

It didn't take long for 4 starters to turn into 3, and that is what killed this team last year. The people who will be filling in are the same cast of characters. And with two 40+ y/o pitchers, it could happen at a moment's notice.

 

I for one am not too worried about Wakefield breaking down. Remember knuckleballers are always more durable. Schilling didn't break down till the end of the season last year. Plus they all seem healthy today which wasn't the case at this time last year.

 

I agree that it does hurt their starting pitching depth, depending on how/if Lester recovers. But to me getting a mediocre starter is much easier than getting a good closer.

 

The main thing that hurt the team last year is that not only did their depth get whacked, but they didn't have a dominant starter either. No starter had an ERA lower than the high 3's. This year they have Matsusaka and hopefully an improving Beckett that should help immensely.

[HeadOfSoxNation]

 

The main thing that hurt the team last year is that not only did their depth get whacked, but they didn't have a dominant starter either. No starter had an ERA lower than the high 3's. This year they have Matsusaka and hopefully an improving Beckett that should help immensely.

 

I don't think you really NEED that dominant starter in the American League, mostly because there are so few. Johan and Halladay...and Liriano but whether he could duplicate last year remains to be seen, and it obviously wont happen this year. Sure, it'd be a huge plus...but I'm not even looking for that out of this team this year. I don't think Schilling or Beckett is going to be sub 3.5 guy...I guess Matsuzaka COULD be...but I don't see that happening either. I think the great thing about this is that the top 3 could all be sub-4 guys. If your top 3 are ALL sub-4, it makes not having a sub 3.5 a LOT less painful.