Joel Pineiro to be closer???

[ORS]

I know what your point is, and it completely ignores the relationship between stuff and workload. SPs need to conserve energy and can't ramp it up as often as RPs. This is common knowledge.

 

Pineiro's OPS against was below league average over the last three years for pitches 1-30, then he became a BP pitcher. That screams move to the bull-pen. And, his performance in pitches 1-30 was with the mindset of conserving energy.

[Mr Crunchy]

the guy has been dogshit 2 years in a row pitching in the best environment an american league pitcher could ask for

 

how many pitchers took a cut in pay this season??

pineiro did

hes pitched like s***,lost lots of zip on his fastball and his era has risen each of the last 4 years

3.24

3.78

4.67

5.62

6.36

and we're about to give him the closers job??

 

you dont spend 200M on your team then hope for success from your closer

its irrational

its insane

its f***ing stupid

 

pitching staffs built on hope and optimism are for kansas city and pittsburg

i and we collectively should expect more

[ORS]

Who should they have signed this year? I don't like flinging crap against the wall while hoping for it to appear artistic, but there weren't any studs out there. The mistake was last year when they let BJ Ryan change teams within the division without making a run at him.

[jacksonianmarch]

Who should they have signed this year? I don't like flinging crap against the wall while hoping for it to appear artistic' date=' but there weren't any studs out there. The mistake was last year when they let BJ Ryan change teams within the division without making a run at him.[/quote']

 

there are options. They just dont want to do what it takes to get them. Cordero would be a nice option to have, but they wont pony up the pitching prospects. Lidge would be a guy I'd stay away from. Gonzalez is now available in ATL for the right price, and I think the same price it would take for Cordero (WMP, Hansen, one of the B's). Granted, you get porked in either deal, but you currently have a very high priced team that could be a championship caliber team with a good closer, you dont bail now.

[Mr Crunchy]

agreed about limited options gumby and bj ryan to be specific

however

they knew in september theyd be looking for a closer and they went out and spent 200,000,00.00 on an outfielder a shortstop and what may amout to be a sushi chef

while ignoring needs like power from the corners and a closer

 

they may indeed turn pineiro into a closer

ive seen it happen with eck and it worked great but i get s*** pains thinking about this guy trying to get 3 outs with a 1 run lead in the 9th inning with the season on the line

 

call me a pessimist

[ORS]

there are options. They just dont want to do what it takes to get them. Cordero would be a nice option to have' date=' but they wont pony up the pitching prospects. Lidge would be a guy I'd stay away from. Gonzalez is now available in ATL for the right price, and I think the same price it would take for Cordero (WMP, Hansen, one of the B's). Granted, you get porked in either deal, but you currently have a very high priced team that could be a championship caliber team with a good closer, you dont bail now.[/quote']

That's ********. You always bail if the price isn't right. The Yankees have a team constructed to win now, but they could use another starter. Do you accept an offer for an overrated SP - as I think Cordero is - for some combination of Melky, Cox/Wheelan, Clippard/Garcia/Ohlendorf? You are lying if you say yes.

[ORS]

call me a pessimist

Oh, you're a pessimist alright. I suspect that is why Jacko follows you around from Sox board to Sox board. He eats it up when a Sox fan is disgruntled at the FO. It's like....high-f***ing-tea, for him.

[Mr Crunchy]

i only know him from here gumby

he doesnt follow me around

but i do sense he enjoys my outrage at the front offices shortcomings

[ORS]

I thought he was another BH Board refugee. Actually, I think he's TheRiv, but that's another story.

[Mr Crunchy]

no

cant be

we wouldve broken him down by now

that boy was too easy and emotionally unstable to be able to hide himself

 

i actually liked the guy despite his twisted behavior

he was a hoot when the yanks would lose a couple in a row to kansas city or tampa with his

FIRE TORRE and FIRE CASHMAN spasms

 

the only guy from the herald who posts regular here is rician

[VA Sox Fan]

Oh' date=' you're a pessimist alright. I suspect that is why Jacko follows you around from Sox board to Sox board. He eats it up when a Sox fan is disgruntled at the FO. It's like....high-f***ing-tea, for him.[/quote']

 

Bwahahahahahahaha!!!! So true ORS!!!

 

jackson reminds me a lot of TheRiv too....perhaps with the rights meds now.

[Mr Crunchy]

no

the only guy from the herald who posts regular here is rician

 

i forgot my illegitimate sister from west virginia

humble apologies to all

[VA Sox Fan]

i forgot my illegitimate sister from west virginia

humble apologies to all

 

I love you too Seany!

[Mr Crunchy]

thank god

i was feeling underloved their for a moment

[jacksonianmarch]

no

cant be

we wouldve broken him down by now

that boy was too easy and emotionally unstable to be able to hide himself

 

i actually liked the guy despite his twisted behavior

he was a hoot when the yanks would lose a couple in a row to kansas city or tampa with his

FIRE TORRE and FIRE CASHMAN spasms

 

the only guy from the herald who posts regular here is rician

 

someone actually wanted to fire torre mid season? Dumbass. You dont have to be Nostradamus to see Torre's skills as a manager have declined a but, but he has done nothing to warrant firing. I like the idea of him grooming Donny for the post, but firing torre after a loss to KC, just dumb.

 

As far as fire cashman? What? What an *******, Cashman is responsible for a change in philosophy of this franchise, whomever said these must have been an idiot. Certainly no yankee fan in their right mind would say such things.

[jacksonianmarch]

That's ********. You always bail if the price isn't right. The Yankees have a team constructed to win now' date=' but they could use another starter. Do you accept an offer for an overrated SP - as I think Cordero is - for some combination of Melky, Cox/Wheelan, Clippard/Garcia/Ohlendorf? You are lying if you say yes.[/quote']

 

ORS, we dont "need" a starting pitcher, thats the thing. Lets change the scenario a bit. Lets say Mariano comes to camp this yr and abruptly retires to spend time on a Panamanian mission, just for the hell of it. And we are left without a closer. Outside of dealing Hughes or Tabata, everyone is fair game if we are getting a marquee closer. If you think Cordero is overrated, then I wont debate that with you, it is your opinion and I can completely see your side. Lets say it was KRod coming on the market. I'd gladly send Clippard, Whelan, and Duncan for him. I'd limit it to three players, but I would certainly think long and hard about any offer so long as it didnt include Tabata or Hughes.

[riverside sluggers]

there are options. They just dont want to do what it takes to get them. Cordero would be a nice option to have' date=' but they wont pony up the pitching prospects. Lidge would be a guy I'd stay away from. Gonzalez is now available in ATL for the right price, and I think the same price it would take for Cordero (WMP, Hansen, one of the B's). Granted, you get porked in either deal, but you currently have a very high priced team that could be a championship caliber team with a good closer, you dont bail now.[/quote']

 

So youre saying the Sox should fork over a package of Wily Mo Pena, Craig Hansen, and one of (Bucholz, Bowden, Bard) for Cordero/Lidge?

[riverside sluggers]

probably released an an expensive failed experiment. I still think this whole bullpen by committee thing will bow up again and by the time they right the ship' date=' they'll be fighting for the WC. The Yankees team is built for the regular season, they will bash the s*** teams and play .500+ ball vs the good teams. If there is any slip in that pen, they will be too far behind to catch up.[/quote']

 

Tito said that a closer will be chosen before opening day...

 

In 2003 the motto was for them to have different guys come in each night to close, an audition during the season if you will. The Sox dont want to see that happen of course. Donnelly & Pineiro I believe are the leading candidates. Again i dont agree with your assesment that the Sox will struggle to win 90 games again, and each member of the bullpen will have a 4.50+++ ERA

 

Also in 2003 the Sox won despite the bullpen by committe racking up 20 saves (not including Kim's 16 saves after coming here). Also that year Pedro was the only starter to post an ERA below 4. This is not a team to be taken so lightly

[jacksonianmarch]

So youre saying the Sox should fork over a package of Wily Mo Pena' date=' Craig Hansen, and one of (Bucholz, Bowden, Bard) for Cordero/Lidge?[/quote']

 

i said that you should stay away for Lidge. Gonzalez and Cordero were the two I'd target.

[jacksonianmarch]

Tito said that a closer will be chosen before opening day...

 

In 2003 the motto was for them to have different guys come in each night to close, an audition during the season if you will. The Sox dont want to see that happen of course. Donnelly & Pineiro I believe are the leading candidates. Again i dont agree with your assesment that the Sox will struggle to win 90 games again, and each member of the bullpen will have a 4.50+++ ERA

 

Also in 2003 the Sox won despite the bullpen by committe racking up 20 saves (not including Kim's 16 saves after coming here). Also that year Pedro was the only starter to post an ERA below 4. This is not a team to be taken so lightly

 

That yr they had a lineup that was unquestionably remarkable from top to bottom. Their rotation ate innings as well and if it wasnt for the pen being a black hole, they win that division.

 

Also, I never said the sox would struggle to win 90 games. I think 90 games is a solid number for them. But 90 gets you a battle for a wild card and like last yr, a date on the tees in October. Remember that the yankees won 97, the tigers out of the WC won 95. Giving up wins early while experimenting will be trouble. And even if Theo plans on sticking with a closer, how many blown saves before the revolving door turns again to the next guy?

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

i said that you should stay away for Lidge. Gonzalez and Cordero were the two I'd target.

 

I wouldn't target either of them. Closers come and go quickly...even the best only last a few years. Its rare to see someone make a long career in that role. I'd be shocked if Mike Gonzalez can survive 3 years as an effective closer. Brad Lidge has better stuff than both Cordero and Gonzalez and look how his stock has dropped because of a rough year.

[BSN07]

Jacko, Mattingly might be the next manager, but I think your next manager is sitting up in the YES network booth, that being Giradi of course.

[riverside sluggers]

The 2003 season no doubt had a great offense, but I do see the 2007 team having a very good year. This lineup got 2 considerable upgrades (Drew over Trot, Lugo over Gonzo), expected rebounds from Tek & Coco, and Dusty should get more HRs & equal RBIs as Mark Loretta did last season

 

As for the rotation, 2007 is looking like a better one sans no pitcher will have same succes as Pedro did. The 1 - 4 starters (Pedro, Lowe, Burkett, Wakefield) pitched a combined 773 innings, while the #5 spot was a turnstile with 5+ ERA's Casey Fossum & Jeff Suppan taking up most of the starts there. For this season I believe each of the 5 is capable of pitching 180 innings or more. Would you agree that this year the bullpen shouldnt be depended on as much as last year's was? The 2006 rotation had only 1 healthy starter and that was Beckett who was trying to learn the American League. Not to mention the offense went from the top of the league in the 1st half, to one of the worst in the 2nd half.

[jacksonianmarch]

The 2003 season no doubt had a great offense, but I do see the 2007 team having a very good year. This lineup got 2 considerable upgrades (Drew over Trot, Lugo over Gonzo), expected rebounds from Tek & Coco, and Dusty should get more HRs & equal RBIs as Mark Loretta did last season

 

As for the rotation, 2007 is looking like a better one sans no pitcher will have same succes as Pedro did. The 1 - 4 starters (Pedro, Lowe, Burkett, Wakefield) pitched a combined 773 innings, while the #5 spot was a turnstile with 5+ ERA's Casey Fossum & Jeff Suppan taking up most of the starts there. For this season I believe each of the 5 is capable of pitching 180 innings or more. Would you agree that this year the bullpen shouldnt be depended on as much as last year's was? The 2006 rotation had only 1 healthy starter and that was Beckett who was trying to learn the American League. Not to mention the offense went from the top of the league in the 1st half, to one of the worst in the 2nd half.

 

 

Riverside, the lineup from last yr vs the lineup from 2003 were so far apart that even the moves made wont span that gap.

 

In 2003= .286/.360/.491 for a .851 team OPS and scored 961 runs which was first in the league by nearly 60 runs

In 2006= .269/.351/.435 for a .786 team OPS and scored 820 runs which was ninth in the league, 110 runs below NY and 141 from their 2003 total.

 

That is a serious gap. Now Drew, if he ever plays, will be a guy to try and span that gap. Lugo will not bring up team OPS as he isnt much of a power guy. They are nice additions to make a stronger lineup, but the bottom three is still a black hole.

 

Varitek looked worse than Bernie Williams last yr at the plate, and I never thought I saw a slower bat in 06. Crisp may finally be healthy, but he was supposedly healthy a few months after the injury and the stats still didnt get better. He declined every month until September, when he had a pretty good month in a small AB size before shutting it down.

 

And as far as Pedroia, he has the minor league numbers, but many scouting services hate him. I have heard good things like a scrappy player with a good eye and a solid ability to get the bat on the ball. To "David Eckstein without the talent". His late season experiment was a bad disaster, but it got him over the jitters. He is just as likely to hit .280-.290 as he is to hit .210. If your 7 or 8 spot were a little more solid then flinging a hope and a prayer on a scrappy kid with no real plus tools is something you can do. But if Vtek continues the downward spiral, if Coco proves that he just cannot handle it in beantown and Pedroia goes into the tank, that 7-9 will be awful to watch. It will remind me of the days when Karim Garcia, Raul Mondesi and Enrique Wilson were in the lineup. That 7-9 was abysmal to watch.

[BSN07]

Our offense was pathetic and anemic last season, to compare the two is trivial. 2 completely different teams.

[BSN07]

Ya we don't have any aces in the BP but I think there is enough down there to keep us afloat until a starter is found. Timlin was hurt during the WBC last yr and was never the same. Donnely should help with the workload too in the 7th and 8th innings. Pinerio is an unknown, so is okijimha, romero, taveras but most BP have no clue what they have from year to year and someone usually steps up and has a good season and can become dependable and able to be counted on.

[ORS]

I doubt they'll get to '03 level performance too, but they may get close. Manny missed a month, RF production was nowhere near what Drew is capable of, SS too, and Crisp and Tek had epic career-low seasons. Everything fell right in '03, and if it does this year, I can easily see them scoring 925+ runs.

 

And, while the BP looks like '03 going into the year, I think the rotation looks much better, and the defense looks better too. They may score a few less, but I think they'll prevent more than the difference at the plate. The differential matters more than the production.

[jacksonianmarch]

Well, that isnt terribly true BSN. Most teams have some sort of idea going into a season who will be in the important roles, namely closer and SU man.

 

NYY- Rivera, Proctor/Farns

TOR- Ryan, League

BAL- Ray, Baez

TB- they suck

CWS- Jenks, McDougal

DET- Zumaya, Jones

CLE- Borowski, Hernandez

MIN- Nathan, Rincon

KC- Dotel, Riske

OAK- Street, Duchsherer

ANA- KRod, Shields

TEX- Gagne, Otsuka

SEA- Putz, ??? (idiots dealt away Soriano).

ATL- Wickman, Gonzalez, Soriano

PHI- Gordon, Geary

NYM- Wagner, Sanchez, Heilman

FLA- ?????????

WAS- Cordero, Rauch

STL- Isringhausen, Wainwright

CHI- Dempster, Howry

HOU- Lidge, Qualls, Wheeler

PIT- Torres, Capps

MIL- Cordero, Turnbow?

SF- Benitez, Correia

SD- Hoffman, Linebrink, Meredith

LA- Saito, Broxton

COL- Fuentes, ???

ARI- Julio, Medders

 

You look at the above list and really the only two teams without a closer right now are FLA and TB. FLA actually had a heavily relied upon reliever take the bump and put up a solid ERA. Every single team with a name listed had at least one BP guy who they turned to whose ERA was 3.5 or below, many of the above teams had 2. Most BP have a very good clue about what they are going to do about their bullpen. Sometimes it doesnt work out and sometimes you get surprised by what you find. But most every team has a framework in place by now.

[stevece80]

i said that you should stay away for Lidge. Gonzalez and Cordero were the two I'd target.

 

Cordero pitched in Yellowstone Park and allowed 13 home runs, Gonzalez, for all his effectiveness, walked a ridiculous 5+ batters per nine innings.

 

Gonzalez isn't going anywhere. I don't see why people look at the Braves (after trading Adam Laroche) and see 3 relievers and figure, "hey, they must need to trade one of them". Good bullpens have three good relievers. It's happened before. Hell, some bullpens have 4 good relievers. I'm sure they're perfectly aware that Wickman could very well be their 3rd best option at this point, and could implode at any time, regardless.

 

Cordero is the only quality closer available out there, but even he has a ton of question marks (awful HR rate, lackluster K rate), and is an NL closer to boot. That's even before factoring in that you'd need a king's ransom for him.

 

The Red Sox made an offer to a closer on the market with 190 career saves in the AL, a team postseason hero, who unfortunately would rather play for less money elsewhere because he was run out of town by nitwits while struggling/recovering from injuries. If Foulke does well in Cleveland while someone else flounders in Boston, that's clearly on the shoulders of the douches that made his life a living hell as a clear sign of ingratitude after he nearly ended his career bringing a championship to Boston.

 

There was no sure-thing on the market this winter, and regardless, teams who throw s*** up against the wall are just as likely to find a reliable closer than those who have overpaid for question marks.

[stevece80]

And as far as Pedroia, he has the minor league numbers, but many scouting services hate him. I have heard good things like a scrappy player with a good eye and a solid ability to get the bat on the ball. To "David Eckstein without the talent".

 

Oh please, before David Eckstein was David Eckstein, scouts loathed him as well. At best he was an underdog story which had some pulling for him. There's a reason teams, while scouting is very important, are replacing scouts with computers is because of idiotic comments and views like that. The only thing Eckstein has over Pedroia is speed, that's it. Anyone who has watched Pedroia play knows he's fundamentally sound at everything he does, has much more pop than Eckstein, a better eye, and can give him a run for his money defensively.

 

The only thing Pedroia's stint this past September proved is that sometimes when you make contact, the ball sometimes finds fielders more than it should. I've seen some people react like he had a Shoppach-esque strikeout fest where he was absolutely owned, when it wasn't. Pedroia took some time to adjust in his first stint at AAA as well, he came back the next season and put up a line that Red Sox fans would die for from 2nd base.