Gagne talks with sox are heating up.

[Beckett95]

LA Times

 

The Red Sox are no longer interested in closer Eric Gagne, but sources close to the negotiations said the Cleveland Guardians and Texas Rangers have made offers of one year for close to $6 million.

 

Gagne rejected the Dodgers' offer of $4 million with performance incentives that could raise the total to $10 million.

 

i would have gave Gagne 5 million. If he stays healthy hed be a steal.

 

the drew and lugo signings mean nothing if we dont get Matsuzaka signed and find a good closer.

[TheKilo]

LA Times

 

 

 

i would have gave Gagne 5 million. If he stays healthy hed be a steal.

 

the drew and lugo signings mean nothing if we dont get Matsuzaka signed and find a good closer.

 

 

Rumor has it those deals with Texas/Cleveland make it so he has incentives worth $10+ mil, and that's too much of a risk for Gagne.

[jacksonianmarch]

no closer, no setup man, no bullpen, = no playoffs.

[riverside sluggers]

its december, theres still 4 months, nice trollish post effort to induce more sox/yankee fan fights

 

By the way, Okajima looks like a good bet to be one of the setup men, not just a lefty specialist

[jacksonianmarch]

its december, theres still 4 months, nice trollish post effort to induce more sox/yankee fan fights

 

By the way, Okajima looks like a good bet to be one of the setup men, not just a lefty specialist

 

no, he doesnt at this moment. A lefty who cannot break a pane of glass is not a solid setup man. Sounds like a matchup lefty in the majors. Maybe like a Scot Eyre or Rheal Cormier type player.

[jacksonianmarch]

also, a trollish post is what those dodgers guys did. This is a fact. 4 months to go, and the best FA options are off the table. Their best trading partner wants nothing to do with them. Their rookies are obviously not ready to take on any pressure thus far. Their bullpen ace got hurt and moved to the rotation. Their setup man from a yr ago exploded down the stretch. Their long man proved he was much better as a starter than as a reliever and he is going back to being a long man. They paraded a ton of guys into that pen and nobody was overly effective over a long period of time except for Paps. That bullpen is in absolute shambles and theo has ignored it all offseason. Now, the last gasp of a FA signing has been passed and this team has no shot at winning this season as it stands right now.

 

You have Schilling who is no longer the horse he was. Consider him to be a 5-7IP pitcher from here on out. Beckett is a potential horse, but he walks too many and has been completely ineffective. Matsuzaka and Papelbon will be handled with great care, so expect the pen to have to work 3 innings a night on average in their starts. Wake is a 6 inning pitcher because that knuckler gets figured out the third time through. Your pen is due to geta ton of work this season. 2-3 innings a night if everything bounces absolutely perfectly in the rotation. Most likely after potential injuries and ineffectiveness that number will push to 3 maybe more. So what happens when Paps fights through 6 innings and hands the pen a 3-2 lead and Delcarmen hands it back? How about when Schilling goes ole blood and guts and hands the ball over to Hansen in the 8th against the yankees with a 2-1 lead and he gives up the ghost? It demoralizes a whole staff and puts a ton of strain on a rotation that right now does not have the capacity to handle strain. A solid bullpen is an ABSOLUTE NECESSITY in today's game. This isnt 1970. 37 yrs ago you needed one bullpen arm and the rest of the staff could give you 300 innings a piece. Times have changed. Unfortunately for you guys, Theo hasnt. He still cannot build a bullpen and now he will have to get creative.

 

for those of you who do not think a pen is important, take a look at last yrs Guardians. Their rotation is solid. Their offense damn good. That pen made them a .500 team.

[riverside sluggers]

Scott Eyre is mainly a lefty matchup? Last time I checked him & Bob Howry were the main setup men for Ryan Dempster, he faced his fair share of right-handed batters. If the Sox evnvision Okajima as just a left specialist, they woulve come right out and say so. I can see him getting getting opportunities to come in to do the 7th or 8th innings. He does have the advantage of batters not facing him before and could rack up some K's before the league starts to find him out.

 

EDIT: a Yankee fan's post on a Sox forum like...

no closer, no setup man, no bullpen, = no playoffs.

will undoubtedly bring criticism and induce another useless fight. Oh and remember 2003's Bullpen by committee? That bullpen killed themselves throughout the season but gelled in the playoffs. IM NOT saying that will be the case this year. But yea if it makes Yankee fandom sleep well at night, keep thinking that the entire Sox team including the pitching will be a la Royals

[jacksonianmarch]

Scott Eyre is mainly a lefty matchup? Last time I checked him & Bob Howry were the main setup men for Ryan Dempster' date=' he faced his fair share of right-handed batters. If the Sox evnvision Okajima as just a left specialist, they woulve come right out and say so. I can see him getting getting opportunities to come in to do the 7th or 8th innings. He does have the advantage of batters not facing him before and could rack up some K's before the league starts to find him out.[/quote']

 

Eyre is not really a setup man. Neither is Cormier. I picked them because they arent Mike Myers type guys who are 1 and done type pitchers. They are guys who matchup well with the capability to throw a full inning. It was a careful comparison. But I dont think you would want to hand those guys the ball in the 8th of every game you have a lead is what I am saying. They are essentially like Villone was for the yankees last season before he blew up. If the 8th had a bunch of lefties coming up, then he was the man for that inning, even if there was a righty mixed in. If not, then he stayed on the bench. A solely 8th inning guy is a power guy most likely. Okajima does not fit that role.

 

Dont get me wrong, I think he will have a good season, but not as your 8th inning man every night.

[CrespoBlows]

Scott Eyre is mainly a lefty matchup? Last time I checked him & Bob Howry were the main setup men for Ryan Dempster, he faced his fair share of right-handed batters. If the Sox evnvision Okajima as just a left specialist, they woulve come right out and say so. I can see him getting getting opportunities to come in to do the 7th or 8th innings. He does have the advantage of batters not facing him before and could rack up some K's before the league starts to find him out.

 

EDIT: a Yankee fan's post on a Sox forum like... will undoubtedly bring criticism and induce another useless fight. Oh and remember 2003's Bullpen by committee? That bullpen killed themselves throughout the season but gelled in the playoffs. IM NOT saying that will be the case this year. But yea if it makes Yankee fandom sleep well at night, keep thinking that the entire Sox team including the pitching will be a la Royals

 

It happens to be the truth, by the way.

[CrespoBlows]

no' date=' he doesnt at this moment. A lefty who cannot break a pane of glass is not a solid setup man. Sounds like a matchup lefty in the majors. Maybe like a Scot Eyre or Rheal Cormier type player.[/quote']

 

That would be true if he had Mike Myers velocity, but pretty much everyone has him at 89-91 MPH.

[jacksonianmarch]

That would be true if he had Mike Myers velocity' date=' but pretty much everyone has him at 89-91 MPH.[/quote']

 

not really. I heard 90 was his top speed, meaning he sits in the 86-88 range with a max of 90.

[jacksonianmarch]

Scott Eyre is mainly a lefty matchup? Last time I checked him & Bob Howry were the main setup men for Ryan Dempster, he faced his fair share of right-handed batters. If the Sox evnvision Okajima as just a left specialist, they woulve come right out and say so. I can see him getting getting opportunities to come in to do the 7th or 8th innings. He does have the advantage of batters not facing him before and could rack up some K's before the league starts to find him out.

 

EDIT: a Yankee fan's post on a Sox forum like... will undoubtedly bring criticism and induce another useless fight. Oh and remember 2003's Bullpen by committee? That bullpen killed themselves throughout the season but gelled in the playoffs. IM NOT saying that will be the case this year. But yea if it makes Yankee fandom sleep well at night, keep thinking that the entire Sox team including the pitching will be a la Royals

 

Again, you go overboard. Play along now. The red sox will be a good team missing a critical piece. Now if you want to harken back to 2003, go ahead. You had an offense of the ages back then, this time, the offense will have dead spots. That team had ZERO. Plus, you had a pen filled with good bullpen arms, just nobody deemed "closer". Right now the sox have zero good bullpen arms at this point.

[jacksonianmarch]

I should actually say that you had very good relievers in 2003, not just good arms. Embree was the man in SD before the sox got him. Timlin had a fine yr. Williamson was good. Kim ended up closing rather well down the stretch.

[CrespoBlows]

not really. I heard 90 was his top speed' date=' meaning he sits in the 86-88 range with a max of 90.[/quote']

 

Red Sox agreed to terms with LHP Hideki Okajima on a two-year contract.

No terms yet on the deal. Okajima, who turns 31 next month, had a 2.14 ERA and a 63/14 K/BB ratio in 54 2/3 innings last season and a 4.75 ERA with a 56/19 K/BB ratio in 53 innings in 2005. His velocity is fairly standard for a lefty reliever, but he has a quality curveball that should make him a fine reliever for at least his first few months in the U.S.

 

Most left-handed relievers are usually at 90 mph. I'll admit I've never seen him play, but we should know for sure in March.

[jacksonianmarch]

not really. Most righty relievers are in the 90+ range. The typical lefty reliever sits in the 80s. A 90+ lefty is either a closer or in the rotation.

[ORS]

Right now the sox have zero good bullpen arms at this point.

Maybe. This can't be said with any certainty right now. The yearly variance for even good BP arms is quite big. These type of guys fluctuate from good to bad years without warning. The quality of the Sox arms in the 'pen right now is good. What remains to be seen is if the results will be good.

 

BJ Ryan is one of the better closers in the AL, and he rarely throws the ball over 92.

[jacksonianmarch]

Maybe. The quality of the Sox arms in the 'pen right now is good. .

 

 

can you expound on this statement? If you are talking stuff then I will agree with you. If you are saying they are good overall relievers right now, I wouldnt.

[ORS]

You got it. They have guys who have the stuff to be good MLB RPs.

 

If you don't see it, it's because you want to not see it. Delcarmen showed he can be a good MLB RP prior to his finger injury. Timlin was very good to start the year, but was never the same after he hit the DL with a sore arm. Tavarez has been both good and bad in the past.

 

I'm not saying I'm confident with this 'pen going into the year, but you can't, like you are wont to do, say this 'pen will flat out suck with any certainty.

 

I think a wild-card here might be Papelbon. I'm in favor of moving him to the rotation, but he's a huge asset in the BP. With all the money they've spent this offseason, it's perplexing that they didn't get a closer. It makes me wonder if they've rethought the Papelbon to the rotation idea. It wouldn't shock me if they acquired another starter, and if they do, I think it might be indicative of a change of plans. Either that, or they'll need to make a move with a trade.

[a700hitter]

also, a trollish post is what those dodgers guys did. This is a fact. 4 months to go, and the best FA options are off the table. Their best trading partner wants nothing to do with them. Their rookies are obviously not ready to take on any pressure thus far. Their bullpen ace got hurt and moved to the rotation. Their setup man from a yr ago exploded down the stretch. Their long man proved he was much better as a starter than as a reliever and he is going back to being a long man. They paraded a ton of guys into that pen and nobody was overly effective over a long period of time except for Paps. That bullpen is in absolute shambles and theo has ignored it all offseason. Now, the last gasp of a FA signing has been passed and this team has no shot at winning this season as it stands right now.

 

You have Schilling who is no longer the horse he was. Consider him to be a 5-7IP pitcher from here on out. Beckett is a potential horse, but he walks too many and has been completely ineffective. Matsuzaka and Papelbon will be handled with great care, so expect the pen to have to work 3 innings a night on average in their starts. Wake is a 6 inning pitcher because that knuckler gets figured out the third time through. Your pen is due to geta ton of work this season. 2-3 innings a night if everything bounces absolutely perfectly in the rotation. Most likely after potential injuries and ineffectiveness that number will push to 3 maybe more. So what happens when Paps fights through 6 innings and hands the pen a 3-2 lead and Delcarmen hands it back? How about when Schilling goes ole blood and guts and hands the ball over to Hansen in the 8th against the yankees with a 2-1 lead and he gives up the ghost? It demoralizes a whole staff and puts a ton of strain on a rotation that right now does not have the capacity to handle strain. A solid bullpen is an ABSOLUTE NECESSITY in today's game. This isnt 1970. 37 yrs ago you needed one bullpen arm and the rest of the staff could give you 300 innings a piece. Times have changed. Unfortunately for you guys, Theo hasnt. He still cannot build a bullpen and now he will have to get creative.

 

for those of you who do not think a pen is important, take a look at last yrs Guardians. Their rotation is solid. Their offense damn good. That pen made them a .500 team.

You just blather on and on. Yes, it's December and we have no chance to win in 2007. I heard the the FO has cancelled today's ticket sales because the team has no shot. Give it up. You are just kidding yourself if you think the pen behind Mo is so solid. Farnsworthless can't be trusted with any pressure situation, and although Proctor pitched well last year, there's no guaranty of good performance this year. That's the thing with bullpens-- from one year to the next the performance of the same guys can fluctuate wildly.

[jacksonianmarch]

You just blather on and on. Yes' date=' it's December and we have no chance to win in 2007. I heard the the FO has cancelled today's ticket sales because the team has no shot. Give it up. You are just kidding yourself if you think the pen behind Mo is so solid. Farnsworthless can't be trusted with any pressure situation, and although Proctor pitched well last year, there's no guaranty of good performance this year. That's the thing with bullpens-- from one year to the next the performance of the same guys can fluctuate wildly.[/quote']

 

the fact is, Mo is still there. The toughest spot to fill in a bullpen is filled. Add in Proctor, Farnsworth, Bruney, Myers, Britton and you have 5 other guys, other than Mo who had a great degree of success last yr. Then consider that they have some solid rookies, who unlike in Boston, will not be required to pitch stressful innings early on. Meaning they get to learn without the entirety of the fierce media scrutiny on them. Then, if they prove they can handle s*** innings, then they get crap innings, then filler innings, then potentially a stressful inning. There is enough of a luxury to allow that. Now the reason why the pen is going to be even better in NY is because they focused on adding guys who will give 200+IP in a season. That means less pen work which means less strain and keeps them fresh.

[jacksonianmarch]

You got it. They have guys who have the stuff to be good MLB RPs.

 

If you don't see it, it's because you want to not see it. Delcarmen showed he can be a good MLB RP prior to his finger injury. Timlin was very good to start the year, but was never the same after he hit the DL with a sore arm. Tavarez has been both good and bad in the past.

 

I'm not saying I'm confident with this 'pen going into the year, but you can't, like you are wont to do, say this 'pen will flat out suck with any certainty.

 

I think a wild-card here might be Papelbon. I'm in favor of moving him to the rotation, but he's a huge asset in the BP. With all the money they've spent this offseason, it's perplexing that they didn't get a closer. It makes me wonder if they've rethought the Papelbon to the rotation idea. It wouldn't shock me if they acquired another starter, and if they do, I think it might be indicative of a change of plans. Either that, or they'll need to make a move with a trade.

 

 

Oh I see it. Hansen has some very good stuff as does DelCarmen.

[jacksonianmarch]

overall, I think the sox are 2 good bullpen arms away. They need a primary closer and a primary setup man. That would move Timlin and Okajima to 7th inning work which is something more tolerable, moves Tavares back to long man, and moves Hansen and DelCarmen into the filler role where they can grow rather than be crushed by pressure.

[ORS]

....Add in Proctor' date=' Farnsworth, Bruney, Myers, Britton and you have 5 other guys, other than Mo who had a great degree of success last yr.[/quote']

Everything after this is babble. You conveniently continue to ignore a definite truth that we keep mentioning. What they did last year is irrelevant. What Embree and Foulke did in '04 was irrelevant in '05, what Timlin did in '04 and '05 was irrelevant in '06, what Sturtze did in '05 was irrelevant in '06. See the trend here. Only the very elite RP are consistent year in - year out.

[seabeachfred]

its december, theres still 4 months, nice trollish post effort to induce more sox/yankee fan fights

 

By the way, Okajima looks like a good bet to be one of the setup men, not just a lefty specialist

 

Riverside, yes, it is early and we have plenty of time to make hay and get what we need, and you hit it head on with Okajima. He looks like he could be our No. 1 setup man. Everything I hear about the guy is very positive and he ought to do well. Now where we disagree a little (actually a lot) is hinting that our friend Jackson is a troll. Jackson is a stand-up guy from where I sit and I know I'm going to get the inside scoop about all the Red Sox warts from him. Sometimes we need a reality check and I know for a fact that we still have some work to do if we are to make ourselves happy by next October and our friend Jackson disappointed. Simple at that. :D :D

[a700hitter]

Add in Proctor' date=' Farnsworth, Bruney, Myers, Britton and you have 5 other guys, other than Mo who had a great degree of success last yr. [/quote']Bruney, Myers and Britton? You are happy about a situational one batter guy and two fatsos that have proved nothing except that their prior s***** teams didn't want them. You are viewing this through some rose-colored glasses. Those three guys are worth a warm bag of piss. As for Farnsworthless, there isn't a Yankee fan that I know who didn't go into fear and terror when he came in a close game.

[riverside sluggers]

Again' date=' you go overboard. Play along now. The red sox will be a good team missing a critical piece. Now if you want to harken back to 2003, go ahead. You had an offense of the ages back then, this time, the offense will have dead spots. That team had ZERO. Plus, you had a pen filled with good bullpen arms, just nobody deemed "closer". Right now the sox have zero good bullpen arms at this point.[/quote']

 

If anything, the Sox offense is going to be an upgrade from last year. Drew easily crushes the declining Trot that we saw last year, and Julio Lugo of course is supreme over Gonzo in offensive category. Lugo will give the Sox the speedy lead off runner since said free agent left. Ive got good vibes about a future Ellsbury/Lugo at the top of the lineup.

 

From your previous posts about our starting pitching, its all question marks in your view with our starters projected to last only an avg of 160-190 innings. That right there makes you believe there will be no standout ace and the team having to rely on the offense like the past couple of seasons

[a700hitter]

A solid bullpen is an ABSOLUTE NECESSITY in today's game.

The Cardinal's bullpen was far from solid. When Isringhausen went down, that bullpen was downright scary. Wht is important is that a couple of the guys in the pen get hot down the stretch and into the post-season like the 2003 Red Sox. That pen was a fright until the end of the season when Williamson, Timlin and Embree went on a tear.

 

EDIT: The Yanke pen has been unable to go on a post-season tear in recent years because Clueless Joe burns them out by the end of August. By October their arms are noodles.

[jacksonianmarch]

Bruney' date=' Myers and Britton? You are happy about a situational one batter guy and two fatsos that have proved nothing except that their prior s***** teams didn't want them. You are viewing this through some rose-colored glasses. Those three guys are worth a warm bag of piss. As for Farnsworthless, there isn't a Yankee fan that I know who didn't go into fear and terror when he came in a close game.[/quote']

 

Bruney's sub 1 era in 25 innings down the stretch and Britton's 3.5era in 50 innings last yr at their ages is a consideration to say the least. Fact is, they dont need a closer out of that bunch. They have the best one ever. They have a setup man who may not be the best, but he is capable at least, and Proctor proved his value last season as a swing man. You cannot discount the fact that the yankees have a stable of guys who were very solid last season and a chain of young kids ready to potentially contribute. How they perform this yr is anybody's guess, but building off of a successful previous yr and not having age be an issue is something that bodes well in their favor. Embree and Timlin blew up because their stuff started to decline. The only guy on the yankees who is old enough to decline is Mo, and you can continue to hold your breath for that one.

 

For the sox, they have no precedent to believe that their in house options will blossom. Might they, sure. But that is something you may not want to hold your breath over either.

[jacksonianmarch]

The Cardinal's bullpen was far from solid. When Isringhausen went down, that bullpen was downright scary. Wht is important is that a couple of the guys in the pen get hot down the stretch and into the post-season like the 2003 Red Sox. That pen was a fright until the end of the season when Williamson, Timlin and Embree went on a tear.

 

EDIT: The Yanke pen has been unable to go on a post-season tear in recent years because Clueless Joe burns them out by the end of August. By October their arms are noodles.

 

 

the fact that they had Izzy for almost the entire season shows the difference. The Cardinals had a stable back end of the pen with Looper and Izzy. The rest of the pen developed while those guys shouldered the load of the clutch innings. By the time Izzy went down, one was able to step up. If they had no Izzy or Looper to start the season last yr, I can guarantee you they would have been below .500 and that pen would have been in shambles.

 

Also, you are talking about one of the worst divisions in baseball. The pen struggled mightily until the playoffs. That s*** can fly in the NL, but if you put that in the ALE and the sox will be toast.

[a700hitter]

Bruney's sub 1 era in 25 innings down the stretch and Britton's 3.5era in 50 innings last yr at their ages is a consideration to say the least.

Keep telling yourself that.

Fact is' date=' they dont need a closer out of that bunch. They have the best one ever. [/quote'] That window is closing. He had elbow issues last season. He'll have to stoke up on the roids over the winter to heal his arm. It will be fun watching Yankee fans jump off cliffs when this guy finally loses his stuff.

They have a setup man who may not be the best' date=' but he is capable at least, and Proctor proved his value last season as a swing man.[/quote']Are you kidding? The cardiac units all over the Bronx are filled to capacity when Farnsworthless comes into the game. As for Proctor, he is at his best when he pitches to Manny. I think those balls are still going.